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To content for a title, Jazz need a Center

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shemtheo

New Member
have a hard time understanding why Jazz fans seem almost endlessly obsessed with finding shooting guards or wing defenders.

For years the biggest deficiency the Jazz have had has been size and defense at the power forward and center positions. With Okur and Boozer we were slightly small and defensively weak in the paint, however, we were a decent rebounding team and they complemented each other well offensively. So how did we do? Not great, we got lucky with Golden St upsetting the number 1 seed (Dallas) one season and got to the conference finals once.

This last season we had Al playing the center spot and Millsap at the four. This means we were painfully small in the front court and while they both were decent rebounders and brought some quality scoring on the offense, the shear lack of size really killed us against bigger teams. In the playoffs we would have no shot with that front court. Supporters of the Big Al/Millsap front court will counter that the Jazz were 5th in the league in blocked shots this season...and they are right about that. However, blocked shots alone don't tell the whole story. One of the reasons the Jazz blocked as many shots as they did was because Al and Millsap were so small that teams continually pounded the ball into the paint and took a ton of shots near the basket. Al and Millsap played courageous defense and ended up blocking a lot of those shots, however, we still got killed by opposing bigs and Millsap wore down halfway through the season.

The NBA of today appears to be a guard-dominated league...and in some respects this is true. There are few all-star quality centers and a plethora of really good point guards (probably the deepest the league has ever been at that position).

But the bottom line is that the biggest teams and the teams with the best front courts (especially defensively) are still winning the titles:

The Lakers in 2009 and 2010 had Bynum, Gasol and Odom,
The Celtics in 2008 had Garnett, Perkins and Big Baby,
The Spurs in 2007, 2005, and 2003 had Duncan and others,
The Heat in 2006 had Shaq's last dominant season,
The Pistons in 2004 had Ben (Def Player of the Year) and Rasheed Wallace, and
The Lakers in 2000-2002 had Shaq in his prime.

Playoff basketball is still about half-court basketball and getting defensive stops by controlling the paint and getting defensive rebounds is still what wins championships. Just ask the Phoenix Suns from 2004-2010.

The Jazz have a wonderful front court piece in Derek Favors. He is a big, athletic power forward who can play defense and rebound and he has the potential to be an all-star calliber player. Big Al or Millsap could be valuable pieces off the bench. However, if the Jazz are going to become legitimate title contenders they will need to find someway to get a quality true center who is big and can defend and rebound.

Of course the other pieces do matter: a good point guard, quality wings, perimeter shooting, etc. But no matter how good our point guard of the future is or how well Gordan Hayward becomes, if we don't have an excellent true center next to Favors, I don't think the Jazz will be ever be real title contenders.
 
Yes, we do often seem too content with our play to win a title. We need to get guys here who have an unbridled enthusiasm and unparalleled drive in the sport.
 
Most people would say Bryant has more to do with the Lakers' titles than the big men. That, and Gasol. Didn't matter if Gasol played PF or C. Odom is undersized for a 4, but generally plays good defense.

Celtics had Pierce and Allen. Davis plays Center for them and is undersized.

Two of the best Spurs players were smalls. Could you even name the starting centers for their titles? Only one I'm certain on is '99 with Robinson. One year might have been Rasho Nesterovic, not exactly the bastion for great defense and rebounding.

So basically, size isn't the goal the Jazz should be looking for. It helps, but it's not the main goal. Favors is suitable for center. Jefferson is suitable for center if he didn't give up so many offensive boards. The Jazz big man situation is okay. What the Jazz lack is a top player. Doesn't matter if it's a guard or big. Doesn't matter if the Jazz get one from within or without. That's what the Jazz are missing. That's why there's so much hope in Hayward to develop into that. Unlikely, but it's something to hope for.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Most people would say Bryant has more to do with the Lakers' titles than the big men. That, and Gasol. Didn't matter if Gasol played PF or C. Odom is undersized for a 4, but generally plays good defense...Two of the best Spurs players were smalls...So basically, size isn't the goal the Jazz should be looking for. It helps, but it's not the main goal...
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No, you're somewhat misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that good defensive bigs have to be the best players on a team to win a title. I'm not saying Shaq was better than Kobe or that Perkins and Big Baby were better players than Rondo, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce.

What I am saying is that no matter how good your guards or wing player are, if you don't have good size, defense and rebounding in the front court you cannot win a title...that's the bottom line.

Think of it like this: in football if you have Peyton Manning playing quarterback for you and a great crop of wide receivers to throw to but you don't have an offensive line that can protect Manning long enough to make his reads, can you win? No. You can't. That doesn't mean that the offensive line is better than Manning, it just means that you have to have a good offensive line to win.

Same thing with size and defense in the front court in the NBA.
 
So what's your answer? Any way to get this big guy you speak of? It's not looking like we'll find one in this draft. We could make a play for Oden in a sign-and-trade using Harris and taking on Miller, or something like that. However, I don't know how much Portland values Oden and it seems they may be iffy on what their intentions are. Also, this necessitates Oden wanting to come here. Also, does Oden have anything left? I don't know. I think it'd be worth it, assuming we find a respectable PG or sorts. If he can even just do 13/8/2 with decent D that's all we'd need. But he could be spent. He could also be good. He could also never play another game. And, obviously, Portland may want him more than Harris and he may not want to consider Utah.

I really don't see any up-and-coming big men that someone is going to give us for any of our chips.
 
The Jazz are definitely several pieces away from being championship contenters. 2 years from now Favors might be that guy in the middle - but certainly you can't be contend with Utah's interior defense last season. Before we worry about contenting for a championship, I'd focus on making the playoffs - and Utah still needs to add another dependable scoring option on the wing for that to happen. Add that wing, see how these young pieces grow together, then worry about contenting for a title.
 
I think the team that wins the championship is the best team. No one position can win it all. You need a good balance.

- quality scorer. Some one that you can put the ball in their hands and they will score.
- interior scorer. Some one that can pound the ball inside draw fouls.
- defensive specialist. Some one that can come in and guard the best player on the other team. This is usually a wing.
- a 6th man. Some one that you can turn the reigns over too while your starters get a rest. He can play multiple positions.
- interior defense. Some one that will shut down the paint. Make it tough to drive the lane
- an inforcer. Some one that will give a hard foul. put players on their backside. Just get into their heads
- 3 point specialist. Hits the open jumpers to spreadbthe floor.
- bench. The part of the team that is over looked but they have to buy into their role of energy guys that play hard when they get time.
- team defense. Players have to help and rotate.
- a point guard that runs your offense.
- team rebounding. Need to stop second chance points.

These are in no order of importance but a championship team is just that a team. Kobe count do it until shaq got there and then gasol. Pierce couldn't do it until garnet got there. Now some of these can be found in the same people like a rebounder shot blocker. Or interior scorer rebounder or scorer 3 pt specialist
 
shemtheo said:
No, you're somewhat misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that good defensive bigs have to be the best players on a team to win a title. I'm not saying Shaq was better than Kobe or that Perkins and Big Baby were better players than Rondo, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce.

What I am saying is that no matter how good your guards or wing player are, if you don't have good size, defense and rebounding in the front court you cannot win a title...that's the bottom line.

Think of it like this: in football if you have Peyton Manning playing quarterback for you and a great crop of wide receivers to throw to but you don't have an offensive line that can protect Manning long enough to make his reads, can you win? No. You can't. That doesn't mean that the offensive line is better than Manning, it just means that you have to have a good offensive line to win.

Same thing with size and defense in the front court in the NBA.
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So what is Favors if not a a big man with elite size and defensive ability?

Jefferson is a decent shot-blocker.

When the Pistons won it they had an undersized Center (Ben Wallace) and an tall, crazy power forward in Wallace.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. What you are really saying is that championship teams rebound and defend the paint at an elite level. Size can make that easier but it isn't the only way for that to happen.

The inverse is true as well. If your guards suck can cannot score from the outside you have no chance of winning a championship. The Jazz could use only more big guy they can count on. But they desperately need another playmaker on the perimeter.
 
I actually was considering the oden deal for Harris. I think a 3 year offer around 5 mil ea wouldn't be to huge of a risk. If we could get another piece from them. Maybe Matthews. I think biyombo could fill a few of those needs. If we could get granger he would too.
 
Xthren said:
I actually was considering the oden deal for Harris. I think a 3 year offer around 5 mil ea wouldn't be to huge of a risk. If we could get another piece from them. Maybe Matthews. I think biyombo could fill a few of those needs. If we could get granger he would too.
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As young as our team is going to be we should be hitting our contending stride in a couple of years. I really don't think that Oden is going to be upright on an NBA court on 2 years. But I am a Biyombo supporter.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with your point.. however I think Al Jefferson is probably a sufficient centre for now. Together with a developing Favors I think they are pretty solid.

Also with Hayward and Harris (performed above average for their positions), I think it is pretty safe to say that we're pretty solid at C, PF, SG and PG for a few years yet.

Our obsession with getting a good shooter/wing player comes from seeing Miles endlessly clanking 3 pointers off the rim.. I mean have you seen him play lately?
 
I dunno dude... listening to anyone that won't bother spelling contend correctly when starting a thread...

That just screams Troll.
 
I would be content with a title.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Most people would say Bryant has more to do with the Lakers' titles than the big men. That, and Gasol. Didn't matter if Gasol played PF or C. Odom is undersized for a 4, but generally plays good defense.

Celtics had Pierce and Allen. Davis plays Center for them and is undersized.

Two of the best Spurs players were smalls. Could you even name the starting centers for their titles? Only one I'm certain on is '99 with Robinson. One year might have been Rasho Nesterovic, not exactly the bastion for great defense and rebounding.

So basically, size isn't the goal the Jazz should be looking for. It helps, but it's not the main goal. Favors is suitable for center. Jefferson is suitable for center if he didn't give up so many offensive boards. The Jazz big man situation is okay. What the Jazz lack is a top player. Doesn't matter if it's a guard or big. Doesn't matter if the Jazz get one from within or without. That's what the Jazz are missing. That's why there's so much hope in Hayward to develop into that. Unlikely, but it's something to hope for.
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Without Pau Gasol, the Lakers were a 7 or 8 seed getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs, even with Kobe and Lamar Odom. Kobe was even asking for a trade. The OP is saying that all contending teams have strong front courts. I agree with this. Bigs win championships. Having wings thereafter, of course, also matters.
 
Catchall said:
Without Pau Gasol, the Lakers were a 7 or 8 seed getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs, even with Kobe and Lamar Odom. Kobe was even asking for a trade. The OP is saying that all contending teams have strong front courts. I agree with this. Bigs win championships. Having wings thereafter, of course, also matters.
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All contending teams have strong back courts, too. What's the point?
 
You don't even need that gifted of a center. Look at what the Bulls did with Wennington, Purdue, and.. hmm.. there was some other crappy big guy. And also look at that game we had late in the season against the Lakers. Fesenko was a force.. Sure he didn't do much that showed up in the stats, but he was there in the middle handing out punishment. I just think we're too undersized with our guys like Jefferson or Favors.. We need some big brute, like Ostertag, who can block and clog the lane.
 
To contend for a title the Jazz need a championship caliber roster.

Oh, and btw, what's your solution then? What's a "center" in your opinion? We're not getting Dwight Howard for CJ Miles and a future draft pick anytime soon. Would you then consider guys like Kendrich Perkins or Nene to be our missing pieces? LOL... Seriously, other than Dwight Howard, who the hell could be considered a dominate center? There aren't any! The NBA has evolved. Gone are the dominate bigs. Today's NBA is dominated by speedy quick guards, Drose, Kobe, Dwade, Rondo, CP3, Parker, Westbrook, Manu, etc and freak SFs like Lebron, Durant, and Melo.

Realistically, the Jazz need a superstar SF/SG. Those guys win titles. Dwade, MJ, Kobe, Manu, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, win championships in today's centerless NBA. If the Jazz want a title, Raja and CJ need to go. Whether or not Hayward is the answer @ the 2 remains to be seen....
 
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