Trade deadline discussion

[Handlogten's Heros]

On the one hand, we have two dudes that have all the appearances of leadership but don’t actually do it (Donovan and Quin), and on the other we have a dude that’s awkward and passive-aggressive but at least tries (Gobert).

Somewhere in between we have Conley who preaches calmly and quietly, opting more to lead by example, but won’t hold people accountable or raise hell if it’s needed.

It would be great if we had anyone that checked all the boxes, but we don’t. It would be great if each of their leadership shortcomings were filled by the strengths or efforts of others, but it appears that they don’t (which is probably why the disconnect is as destructive as it is). Of all three styles, I rank fake leaders (Derek Fisher types) last.

This is a very “cool story, bro.” post. You’re welcome.

Not cool story bro at all... I think a lot of the problems with this team are mental... I been preaching that we need an ******* for a couple years. You can call it an enforcer if you want but I think the best/most competitive teams have that guy. It can burn you up or it can bring out the best in all of these types of guys. Its why I've move from "we need a disruptive perimeter defender" to "we need a good perimeter defender who is a competitive *******". I think all the guys can feed on the energy and effort of that guy. If you get a Marcus Smart type who is basically going to fight everyone and die out on the basketball court it feeds everyone... he can call out everyone cuz its just "Marcus being Marcus".

I'm not a huge "intangibles" guy in part because of the fake intangibles guys like Fisher. Guys like Smart, Tucker, Green, Crowder, Jimmy Butler, CP3, Pat Bev.... that are going to grind, fight, cheat, agitate to find every advantage really bring teams an edge that is needed... we have a huge void there and I think the other good qualities of the guys mentioned might really start to pop if we add that ingredient.

The math on a Marcus Smart deal probably doesn't make sense... Locke basically kinda held his nose at the idea a little and thinks his contract is yucky... he isn't a guy that will shine in the efficiency models... but he's been a winning player since like day 1 and he's a guy that will fight everyone... and lack of fight is a nebulous intangible problem we have.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree on Bojan. I think he's our third most important player. We simply have to have an elite floor spacer for Rudy and Don to do what they want to do. Trading him for anybody Boston has just makes us need another shooter.

Clarkson for Smart works, but I doubt Boston does that.

Conley for Smart and Schroder works, but I doubt Boston does that.

Conley and Clarkson for Smart, Richardson and Schroder works, but I doubt Boston does that.

Conley and Gay for Smart and Richardson works, but I don't know if we go for that.

Conley for Smart, Williams, and Langford works, but I don't know if we go for that.

If I had to guess, this deal is centered on Conley for Smart, but we want a pick back since we spent two on Conley.

I think Boston would do Conley for Smart and Schroder in a second.

I think we are probably lower than the rest of the league on JC but I could see his trade market being limited. They might like what Denis gives them and realize he won't be back next year so JC is signed and a bench player like him... IDK maybe.

I'm guessing Smart's trade value is higher than JC but that he is the same type of guy... some teams might think he's worth a good player and a first and others might think he's overpaid and is a negative.

 

[LoPo]

I think Boston would do Conley for Smart and Schroder in a second.

I think we are probably lower than the rest of the league on JC but I could see his trade market being limited. They might like what Denis gives them and realize he won't be back next year so JC is signed and a bench player like him... IDK maybe.

I'm guessing Smart's trade value is higher than JC but that he is the same type of guy... some teams might think he's worth a good player and a first and others might think he's overpaid and is a negative.

If Boston would do that, then we should consider....

Conley and Clarkson for Smart, Schroder and Richardson.

We literally would be trading offense for defense. And we would do an amazing job lessening the luxury bill for next year (unless we brought back Schroder).

 

[NUMBERICA]

Not cool story bro at all... I think a lot of the problems with this team are mental... I been preaching that we need an ******* for a couple years. You can call it an enforcer if you want but I think the best/most competitive teams have that guy. It can burn you up or it can bring out the best in all of these types of guys. Its why I've move from "we need a disruptive perimeter defender" to "we need a good perimeter defender who is a competitive *******". I think all the guys can feed on the energy and effort of that guy. If you get a Marcus Smart type who is basically going to fight everyone and die out on the basketball court it feeds everyone... he can call out everyone cuz its just "Marcus being Marcus".

I'm not a huge "intangibles" guy in part because of the fake intangibles guys like Fisher. Guys like Smart, Tucker, Green, Crowder, Jimmy Butler, CP3, Pat Bev.... that are going to grind, fight, cheat, agitate to find every advantage really bring teams an edge that is needed... we have a huge void there and I think the other good qualities of the guys mentioned might really start to pop if we add that ingredient.

The math on a Marcus Smart deal probably doesn't make sense... Locke basically kinda held his nose at the idea a little and thinks his contract is yucky... he isn't a guy that will shine in the efficiency models... but he's been a winning player since like day 1 and he's a guy that will fight everyone... and lack of fight is a nebulous intangible problem we have.

I realized I could give the post a topical and sensical landing and arrived where you did. I somehow believe the best time to proofread and edit is after I’ve already posted. But yes, we agree.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I think the balance of attributes gets outta wack if you trade Conley for Smart. An over-correction.

On the other hand, it answers the question of how to get the benefit of his defense in the main lineup. I just really worry about how the offense would run in that scenario.

JC and sweeteners that aren’t another 1st rounder would be perfect IMO. Hard for me to go beyond that.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If Boston would do that, then we should consider....

Conley and Clarkson for Smart, Schroder and Richardson.

We literally would be trading offense for defense. And we would do an amazing job lessening the luxury bill for next year (unless we brought back Schroder).

Idk if they’d do Conley and JC for smart, Richardson, and Schroeder… I also don’t think we would. I think Mike is clearly viewed/valued ahead of Bogey.

I think JC/Bogey/Butler for Schroeder/Smart/Richardson is kind of the deal I can see both teams accepting. Not sure we’d keep Denis as the roster gets kinda wonky but he could be sent to a third team. We’d likely find enough minutes for him during the year with Mike/Joe resting. During the playoffs not sure he’s happy playing like 10 minutes a night.

If you move Bogey I think you slide Gay into the starting lineup but keep his minutes in the 20-25 minute range. Smart gets 30 minutes of the bench as a pseudo starter. A move like this could be a mix it up move that is followed with a pivot if it doesn’t work. If it ends up not working you could move Mike and start Smart or move Mike to the bench next year to better mix up our small guys. I have no issue playing Smart, Mike, Donovan, Royce, Rudy to close games… might be tough to start and close with that group. Teams generally get smaller at the end of games.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think the balance of attributes gets outta wack if you trade Conley for Smart. An over-correction.

On the other hand, it answers the question of how to get the benefit of his defense in the main lineup. I just really worry about how the offense would run in that scenario.

JC and sweeteners that aren’t another 1st rounder would be perfect IMO. Hard for me to go beyond that.

I think there are several workable scenarios. I am just not sure how Boston views themselves right now. Are they trying to clear some cap room… are they trying to be good now but champions in 2-3 years… or are they a team that thinks their window is now?

A JC/Joe for smart/jrich is workable if they want to clear space. We have to offload salary next year if we do that… which isn’t a problem if everyone is healthy. I think Richardson, Royce, Bogey would be easy to move for no returning salary.

Not sure how Boston sees themselves… not even sure if they know how they see themselves.

 

[LoPo]

Idk if they’d do Conley and JC for smart, Richardson, and Schroeder… I also don’t think we would. I think Mike is clearly viewed/valued ahead of Bogey.

I think JC/Bogey/Butler for Schroeder/Smart/Richardson is kind of the deal I can see both teams accepting. Not sure we’d keep Denis as the roster gets kinda wonky but he could be sent to a third team. We’d likely find enough minutes for him during the year with Mike/Joe resting. During the playoffs not sure he’s happy playing like 10 minutes a night.

If you move Bogey I think you slide Gay into the starting lineup but keep his minutes in the 20-25 minute range. Smart gets 30 minutes of the bench as a pseudo starter. A move like this could be a mix it up move that is followed with a pivot if it doesn’t work. If it ends up not working you could move Mike and start Smart or move Mike to the bench next year to better mix up our small guys. I have no issue playing Smart, Mike, Donovan, Royce, Rudy to close games… might be tough to start and close with that group. Teams generally get smaller at the end of games.

I agree that the FO probably values Mike over Bojan. I also wonder if other teams do too.

Like you also said, adding Schroder to Mike and Don gets messed up. Maybe trading Schroder to somebody like Dallas for a protected pick sweetens the deal for us enough.

We could end the game with Conley, Smart, Royce and Don, but I think that team gets torched by teams with above average size scorers (Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Lakers, etc.)

Overall, I hate the idea of trading Bojan. I think it would be backwards thinking unless we were bringing back a Gallinari or another elite shooter with passable defense.

 

[Avery]

I'm as big of a Joe Ingles fan as anyone and the guy has been a revelation for us and a great story, but he'll be 35 next year and his skills are in steep decline.

Is Joe so inclined to continue his career that he'd take a vet minimum contract and play garbage minutes? I doubt it and Joe's focus should be on his family.

He won't get traded - we'll simply ride his contract out.

 

[Nate505]

The most efficient scorer on the team thinks he should get the basketball sometimes and that his teammates should play any defense. What a bastard.

No kidding. Like I don't really want to pick a side and hope things work themselves out, but if I had to choose I'm on Team Gobert all day.

 

[Jingled]

If we trade for Smart, I really hope JC is involved in the trade because I don't think Smart and Clarkson could play together...they would be a horrible fit together and an absolute nightmare offensively.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If we trade for Smart, I really hope JC is involved in the trade because I don't think Smart and Clarkson could play together...they would be a horrible fit together and an absolute nightmare offensively.

Maybe… if anyone has practice playing with guys that dribble the **** out of the ball and then shoot it’s Marcus.

I kid but I agree.

 

[Avery]

Does anyone think Royce would start for any team in the league other than us?

I think he's a natural bench player that only logs minutes for us because we've been so tone deaf and deficient to get a proper stretch 4. The FO is too busy giving away picks or drafting bigs who can't shoot outside of three feet.

 

[LoPo]

Just pitching an idea just for poops and giggles.

Atlanta gets Rudy and Schroder
Celtics get Conley and a 2nd from Atlanta
Jazz get Collins, Smart, Bogdon Bogdonavic, a Celtic protected 1st, and two 1sts from Atlanta

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yb8jtdnv

We get a long term piece in Collins. Smart pairs very nicely with Donovan in the backcourt. Bogdon would be a good bench PG/SG who can run offense. The two first rounders could be used to acquire more talent or used in the draft.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

This is floating out there. If the Jazz were to move Bogdanovic, they'd need a starting-caliber, 2-way wing coming back. Hence, I think this would have to be a 3-team trade with a guy like Harrison Barnes coming back.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Does anyone think Royce would start for any team in the league other than us?

I think he's a natural bench player that only logs minutes for us because we've been so tone deaf and deficient to get a proper stretch 4. The FO is too busy giving away picks or drafting bigs who can't shoot outside of three feet.

Maybe. He's the proverbial 5th starter or 5th - 7th man rotation player. Think Dorian Finney-Smith. Maybe he's in the same category as Jae Crowder, not sure.

 

[LoPo]

This is floating out there. If the Jazz were to move Bogdanovic, they'd need a starting-caliber, 2-way wing coming back. Hence, I think this would have to be a 3-team trade with a guy like Harrison Barnes coming back.

I don't know what to think about this deal. So we're left with....

Don
Conley
Smart
JC
Schroder

I know we like our PG's, that's pretty ridiculous

 

[kabenac]

This is floating out there. If the Jazz were to move Bogdanovic, they'd need a starting-caliber, 2-way wing coming back. Hence, I think this would have to be a 3-team trade with a guy like Harrison Barnes coming back.

I would love that trade. Marcus Smart is a top-10 defender and DS can score off the bench (though I agree - a 3-team trade would be ideal as we could get a forward who could help us score as DS is valuable to some team no doubt). Marcus and Rudy would become besties because they would crush it. I'm not saying Marcus Smart solves all our problems but his perimeter defense is really, really good.

 

[Katastrofica]

I don't know what to think about this deal. So we're left with....

Don
Conley
Smart
JC
Schroder

I know we like our PG's, that's pretty ridiculous

And add royce there and u got smallest team in history of nba lol

 

[NUMBERICA]

This is floating out there. If the Jazz were to move Bogdanovic, they'd need a starting-caliber, 2-way wing coming back. Hence, I think this would have to be a 3-team trade with a guy like Harrison Barnes coming back.

That scenario would explain how the Jazz are asking for picks with Marcus Smart.

Jazz get really thin at forward and lose high scoring on terrific volume and spacing that really grease the wheels of the offense.

If they can somehow dig out Harrison Barnes then it’s something but I doubt that very much. Smart and JC and Schroeder (and Donovan!) vying for shots and minutes is straight hot garbage. It would have to be a three+ team. But what then?