Trade Gordo + Trey for the #3?

[orangello]

Agree... I just think the trading of Hayward would be acknowledgement that the current core is not championship quality and we should hunt for stars through draft picks. I'd try to take as many A+ draft assets as possible.

If that's the case then (as others have mentioned) we should look to Boston and pull as many 2017 picks from them as we can and hand then Hayward and something else that they might want outside of Gobert, Hood and Exum.

I'm no expert but the talk of the 2017 draft sounds like it might be a great one.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I'm too lazy to quote people, but Hayward isn't just a bit better than IT, he's easily a tier or two (more likely the latter) above IT. Hayward is one of the rare wing players who can score efficiently, create well, and defend at an above average rate. Trading him would be a mistake. Letting him leave would be a mistake.

Second, I love Crowder, but he's overrated right now. Brad Stevens is one of the best offensive coaches in the league. Quin is not. So these guys numbers are a bit inflated IMO, kinda like how role players under Jerry always regressed under other teams.

Third, IT is a good player, in his role. He's a 6th man, scoring option. But he doesn't play defense. In rare circumstances you can do alright with that kind of player, like Boston did, but they just did alright. Never will you have a contending team with a player like that unless you have a LeBron, Durant, type of player around him.

In short, we're overvaluing Boston players because of Brad Stevens, and undervaluing Gordon Hayward, who is really freaking good, because Quin is an awful offensive coach so far.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wouldn't be upset but i wouldn't be jumping for joy either.
I think crowder, Thomas and #3 pick makes us better than hayward, #12, and burke does. But maybe only a couple of games better. If the goal is to win more games then I think you do a trade like that (Plus don't have to max Hayward and don't have to worry about him leaving next year).
A very meh type trade.

However maybe DL thinks there is a player that will be available after the 2nd pick that will be a star. (I know allot of people on jazzfanz don't think so but we have all been wrong before) If that's what DL believed then hopefully he would make a trade like that.

If they offered that I'd take it... but they wouldn't go that far. Crowder's contract status would be the reason to do that. They'd probably give up Bradley because he's redundant, but I doubt they'd give up any other meaningful win now pieces.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm too lazy to quote people, but Hayward isn't just a bit better than IT, he's easily a tier or two (more likely the latter) above IT. Hayward is one of the rare wing players who can score efficiently, create well, and defend at an above average rate. Trading him would be a mistake. Letting him leave would be a mistake.

Hayward averages 19.7 ppg in 36.2-minutes per game shooting .433 from the field, .349 from three, and gets to the line 6 times per game. (Shoots .824 from the line)
Efg % of .493.

Isiah Thomas averages 22.2 ppg in 32.2 minutes. He shoots .428 from the field, .359 from three, and gets to the line 6.6 times per game. (Shoots .871 from the line)
Efg% .488

So they both shoot about 43% from the field, and 35% from three, and isiah gets to the line a tiny bit more and shoots it about 4% better.
They both have efg% of about 49. Neither are really efficient.

Thomas averaged 6.2 assists and hayward averaged 3.7
Go per 36 and Thomas is at 24.8 ppg (vs Hayward 19.7) and 6.9 assists per game (vs Hayward 3.7) (hayward already averages over 36 minutes so no point in re-doing his numbers per 36)

Hayward is certainly the better defender.
Hayward is also much more durable.

And I agree that Hayward is the better player.

I think crowder is way better than burke.

I think the #3 pick is a substantially better position to be in than #12.

The difference between burke and crowder and #12 and #3 is a lot greater than the difference between Thomas and hayward.

I'm sure there are many people some the country that think that Thomas is better than hayward (I disagree). Thomas led his team (not a real great team btw. I think Chicago and Washington to name a few have much more talented rosters) to the playoffs and he was an all star too.

I think it's a lot closer between those two than you.

 

[fishonjazz]

Thomas is also possibly a position of need (depending on exum) and is under contract through the 17-18 season for 6 million dollars (wow that is a lot cheaper than I expected)

 

[Stoked]

LockedonJazz talking about if the Jazz should go for the #2 pick this draft and Bradley Beal. Didn't listen myself but for those interested...

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Thomas is also possibly a position of need (depending on exum) and is under contract through the 17-18 season for 6 million dollars (wow that is a lot cheaper than I expected)

I'm not sure they would do either of those guys with the third pick... I highly doubt they'd do both... If they did we should take it and run though.

 

[fishonjazz]

If they offered that I'd take it... but they wouldn't go that far. Crowder's contract status would be the reason to do that. They'd probably give up Bradley because he's redundant, but I doubt they'd give up any other meaningful win now pieces.

Ya I don't think they would do it either.
Hell, they might not even do a hayward for Thomas trade straight up after looking at their numbers and salaries.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not sure they would do either of those guys with the third pick... I highly doubt they'd do both... If they did we should take it and run though.

I agree. No chance ainge would do it since he seems to be famous for fleecing other teams.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

LockedonJazz talking about if the Jazz should go for the #2 pick this draft and Bradley Beal. Didn't listen myself but for those interested...

I did... Beal goes no where. It works off the assumption that Washington thinks they can still get Durant. They will match our max offer.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree. No chance ainge would do it since he seems to be famous for fleecing other teams.

I do think his trigger finger is getting antsy though... I think he might give up serious draft assets for Hayward and if we hit on the picks we'd come out ahead... But it's more of the patience and development model that we are all kind of sick of.

 

[NAOS]

There was that rumor that Ainge was willing to bleed out teh *** for Justice Winslow.

 

[fishonjazz]

Second, I love Crowder, but he's overrated right now. Brad Stevens is one of the best offensive coaches in the league. Quin is not. So these guys numbers are a bit inflated IMO, kinda like how role players under Jerry always regressed under other teams.

Third, IT is a good player, in his role. He's a 6th man, scoring option. But he doesn't play defense. In rare circumstances you can do alright with that kind of player, like Boston did, but they just did alright. Never will you have a contending team with a player like that unless you have a LeBron, Durant, type of player around him.

In short, we're overvaluing Boston players because of Brad Stevens, and undervaluing Gordon Hayward, who is really freaking good, because Quin is an awful offensive coach so far.

This part of your post might all be true and I think you have a really good basketball mind so I lean towards agreeing with you.

It is speculation though. I could speculate that Thomas and favors would be amazing in the pick n roll (Maybe quin changes his offense to utilize Thomas skills) and Thomas would score less, but more efficiently, and get more assists and turn favors into an all star. His dribble penetration would be great to get hood and lyles great looks from three and defenders would have to leave rudy to defend Thomas drive game allowing rudy to get lots of offensive rebound put backs (dribble penetration has been lacking in the jazz offense imo).

I could speculate that favors is better than griffin cause he is the much better defender and if he had a point guard like cp3 his offensive game would take off.

It's hard to say what any player would do on any other team.

I do trust you opinion to be a good one though and maybe hayward on Boston would be averaging 25 points and 7 assists and be an all star leading his team to the playoffs (I think the latter two are actually very likely)

 

[Stoked]

I did... Beal goes no where. It works off the assumption that Washington thinks they can still get Durant. They will match our max offer.

So maybe. Thanks for the info.

 

[RandyForRubio]

This part of your post might all be true and I think you have a really good basketball mind so I lean towards agreeing with you.

It is speculation though. I could speculate that Thomas and favors would be amazing in the pick n roll (Maybe quin changes his offense to utilize Thomas skills) and Thomas would score less, but more efficiently, and get more assists and turn favors into an all star. His dribble penetration would be great to get hood and lyles great looks from three and defenders would have to leave rudy to defend Thomas drive game allowing rudy to get lots of offensive rebound put backs (dribble penetration has been lacking in the jazz offense imo).

I could speculate that favors is better than griffin cause he is the much better defender and if he had a point guard like cp3 his offensive game would take off.

It's hard to say what any player would do on any other team.

I do trust you opinion to be a good one though and maybe hayward on Boston would be averaging 25 points and 7 assists and be an all star leading his team to the playoffs (I think the latter two are actually very likely)

Boston averaged a little over 100 possessions a game. We averaged 93, which is piss poor btw. I'm in a tractor in a field right now, so I can't look it up, but I think the best statistical comparison for them would be 100 POS and not per40 or per36. Evens out the pacing a little bit.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Strike what I said about the 100/pos. I was wrong. Maybe a better one would be pace adjusted per36/40.
[MENTION=578]franklin[/MENTION], you're better with statistics than me. Any thoughts from your non-trolling persona.




/practically none of us know basketball like Frank does

 

[fishonjazz]

Boston averaged a little over 100 possessions a game. We averaged 93, which is piss poor btw. I'm in a tractor in a field right now, so I can't look it up, but I think the best statistical comparison for them would be 100 POS and not per40 or per36. Evens out the pacing a little bit.

I figured that would be the case (faster pace). Those kinds of stats are over my head.
There are probably also stats about which player had more assisted baskets and who had more open looks and who had more layups.

Simply looking at the per game stats though they appear to be very similar statistically (almost identical %/efficiency wise) with thomas stats appearing to be a tiny bit better to me. (His salary is much better)

Certainly doesn't seem to be a wide gap between to the two players though. At least not as wide as burke to crowder or 12 to 3.

Put aside that trade for a second though.
Man the jazz could certainly use an all star or near all star level point guard who bends defenses and is only under contract for two extremely cheap years. (By that time exum should be totally ready to take over)

I wonder if the Celtics would want a package of something else that we could offer besides hayward? Probably not. Hayward is almost certainly our most desired player (unless his looming contract scares teams)

 

[franklin]

This part of your post might all be true and I think you have a really good basketball mind so I lean towards agreeing with you.

It is speculation though. I could speculate that Thomas and favors would be amazing in the pick n roll (Maybe quin changes his offense to utilize Thomas skills) and Thomas would score less, but more efficiently, and get more assists and turn favors into an all star. His dribble penetration would be great to get hood and lyles great looks from three and defenders would have to leave rudy to defend Thomas drive game allowing rudy to get lots of offensive rebound put backs (dribble penetration has been lacking in the jazz offense imo).

I could speculate that favors is better than griffin cause he is the much better defender and if he had a point guard like cp3 his offensive game would take off.

It's hard to say what any player would do on any other team.

I do trust you opinion to be a good one though and maybe hayward on Boston would be averaging 25 points and 7 assists and be an all star leading his team to the playoffs (I think the latter two are actually very likely)

Hornacek very effectively used a pick or double picks and dive behind the basket scenario with bigs who couldn't score well like Gobert. I think semi-defensive small ball could work well with Gobert and Favors (Favors-Hayward-Gobert the defenders and Ish and another gunner the pushers).

Strike what I said about the 100/pos. I was wrong. Maybe a better one would be pace adjusted per36/40.
[MENTION=578]franklin[/MENTION], you're better with statistics than me. Any thoughts from your non-trolling persona.

/practically none of us know basketball like Frank does

I am not very good with stats but thanks a lot for the compliment. I have my favored measures. I think ts% is the best measure of an offensive player when measured against volume. Thomas is good at .562. Hayward is good at .559.

What I do know is we could have had Thomas for next to nothing and DL fumbled the football. This talk of trading a ton of assets for him irks me.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would assume that since hayward and Thomas are so similar in their shooting, three point, efg, ts, etc that their offensive numbers would be pretty similar no matter how you broke it down (The stats seem to indicate Thomas is slightly better offensively, but maybe that is due to having a better coach)

Defensively is where I would expect Hayward to outshine Thomas significantly statistically. I don't really know what defensive stats to use though or how to find them.

Then again I just assume Thomas is a poor defender mainly due to his size. Maybe he is better than I think he is defensively.

 

[mellow]

LockedonJazz talking about if the Jazz should go for the #2 pick this draft and Bradley Beal. Didn't listen myself but for those interested...

I just listened to yesterday's Locke appearance on Monsoon & Checkouts. Locke says that Jazz could trade Hayward and probably Favors and reset the re-build around Exum, Rodney, Lyles and Gobert, or try to build around current core and add pieces. Huge decisions for Jazz this summer.

Also, said Jazz believe one of Simmons/Ingram could be as great as Durant. But wouldn't give up which one of the two mates it was.

He asked a rhetorical question-if you thought one of those two would be Kevin Durrant, would you give up Hayward to get him? Then answering his own question "yes".

Interesting stuff. Lindsey is gonna earn his paycheck the next few weeks with the decisions he will have to make.