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Trade Mitchell (Include Clarkson)

LoPo said:
I have said all along that Don should play better defense. It would help. However, we aren't losing playoff games because of anything Don is doing. He should be allowed to play average defense if he is going to play so well on the other end.

Steph plays average defense. Lillard. A ton of stars. They are protected by defensive perimeter specialists so they can do the work they do best. It's like blaming Shaq for sucking at the free throw line. He makes up for it elsewhere.

WE NEED PERIMETER DEFENDERS!


I would love for Don to be a combo of Marcus Smart and Donovan Mitchell, but that ain't reality.

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No you actually said he shouldn't have to play defense because he carries the offensive load. Almost verbatim.
 
mongoose01 said:
I think Don would be a fine defender if he was playing the point position and we had a bigger guard who could take on tough assignments or a wing that could do that as well… I don’t understand why Mitchell appears to have a reluctance to play the point position on the regular. You got to think that if he wanted to play the point he would be playing the point.


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He doesn't want to play defense. That's pretty clear. It's sad because at times he can lock it down. But he makes it clear that is not his job and he plays that way, and if he played the point regularly that would require facilitating and not just scoring. He's not about that.
 
Hekate said:
You keep moving the argument somewhere else. Mitchell is a terrible defender whether it's in the regular season or in the playoffs. Our best chance to win a playoff series is with him on the floor. These 2 things are both true. It's just that your standards aren't consistent.
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I've said the same thing all along.

Donovan is an average defender in the playoffs. Not great. Not atrocious.

Bitch about something else.

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LogGrad98 said:
Nah if you cared for facts you'd look it up. You just want your fluctuating narrative so that's on you.
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I like how when you lose the argument, it's because you say I changed the narrative.

Nobody in society will simply say - you're right, I'm wrong anymore.

Have some integrity

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mongoose01 said:
I think Don would be a fine defender if he was playing the point position and we had a bigger guard who could take on tough assignments or a wing that could do that as well… I don’t understand why Mitchell appears to have a reluctance to play the point position on the regular. You got to think that if he wanted to play the point he would be playing the point.


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Are you saying he doesn't like playing the point or defending the point? I'm not clear what you mean here.

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LoPo said:
I've said the same thing all along.

Donovan is an average defender in the playoffs. Not great. Not atrocious.

Bitch about something else.

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So you agree that Gobert is a great defender and more than average offensive player in the playoffs. Great.
 
LoPo said:
Are you saying he doesn't like playing the point or defending the point? I'm not clear what you mean here.

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I think he must have some reluctance to playing the point position. I think he would do fine at defending pg’s but he can’t have that assignment because we have Conley. I cant imagine we’d have traded for Conley and made him such a priority if Mitchell was willing to play pg. if Mitchell wanted to play the point position I think he’d be doing it.

If Mitchell doesn’t want to play the point I think it’s fine, but you gotta then figure out how he can be defending against pg’s or having defensive assignments that make sense.


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Hekate said:
Dude, if only you realized that I am just applying your standards for Mitchell to Rudy.

I don't really care about the comparison.
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You can't compare Rudy and Don for the playoffs. Rudy has never dominated.

I don't think it's that you don't care about the comparison; I think it's that you don't know what the word comparison means.

Not everything has to be Don or Rudy. This thread is an anti-Don thread and it's stupid.

THE ONLY REASON TO TRADE DON IS IF HE WANTS TO LEAVE. There are no basketball or business reasons that make any sense.

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mongoose01 said:
I think he must have some reluctance to playing the point position. I think he would do fine at defending pg’s but he can’t have that assignment because we have Conley. I cant imagine we’d have traded for Conley and made him such a priority if Mitchell was willing to play pg. if Mitchell wanted to play the point position I think he’d be doing it.

If Mitchell doesn’t want to play the point I think it’s fine, but you gotta then figure out how he can be defending against pg’s or having defensive assignments that make sense.


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That is the million question for me and has been since we started pursuing Conley.

Did Mitchell want our FO to pursue a PG or did the FO/Quin just feel like they wanted a PG next to Don?

I've always thought we needed Don at PG and a wing with him and Rudy able to run offense every once in a while. Don and Joe for instance. And a PG needed for the bench.

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Donovan Mitchell might become a PG when he's like 32 years old and he has to drop his hero ball ego, but that isnt going to happen anytime soon.
 
LoPo said:
You can't compare Rudy and Don for the playoffs. Rudy has never dominated.

I don't think it's that you don't care about the comparison; I think it's that you don't know what the word comparison means.

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Look,

Mitchell has great stats but he has never stepped up on defense. He was actively a big part of why Jazz's perimeter defense is the biggest topic now.

I really don't care about the comparison, it just bothers me that the excuses you make for one aren't there for the other. You try to paint Mitchell as an average defender. Why?

I can say that Gobert is a limited offensive player. He doesn't have a low center of gravity and can't punish small balls with post ups. He can only deep seal and dunk. That gives others only a small frame to find him. That's who he is as a player. But he still sets so many screens, seals, crashes the boards and tries to make the offense run.

Mitchell doesn't have that kinda resolution on defense. I don't look for him to lock down anyone, put a hand on the ball every possession or average 10 rebounds. The same way I wouldn't look for Gobert to create his own shot. I just want to see him make sound rotations, be there physically and just not to sleep on defense more than 1 possession a game.

The team helps Mitchell to find his best plays(for good reason). Spread PnR with good shooters on the corner to maximize space is a good setting for him. Last time I checked Mitchell was the most efficient PnR scorer among guards in the league but he has only been so-so on isos and catch and shoots. The team works for him to get his best shots.

But the same team doesn't work the same way defensively. Gobert is there to clean up not dominate his matchup. If the Jazz had better defenders we could see schemes like we did in the Houston series(which Gobert dominated defensively). It's not much of a problem actually because Jazz have a really good offense so you can put Gobert there as a cleaner and not allow him to hound players but the others still need to put some effort.

It just gets grating when someone talks about dominating and stuff because the team isn't set up that way.
 
mongoose01 said:
I think Don would be a fine defender if he was playing the point position and we had a bigger guard who could take on tough assignments or a wing that could do that as well… I don’t understand why Mitchell appears to have a reluctance to play the point position on the regular. You got to think that if he wanted to play the point he would be playing the point.


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Donovan is going to be bad defensively at either guard position.

Donovan isnt a PG because his best skill is unrelenting pursuit of being an aggressive offensive player. His passing is mediocre besides being a pretty good drive and kick player. He isn't going to help a guy get going. He doesn't make players around him better. He's going to put a lot of defensive pressure on his backcourt partner because that player will always have to guard the tougher matchup.
 
The statement you make “he doesn’t make other players better” is the most concerning thing to me. There have been many border line Allstars who get their points but never win the big games. Is that what we have on our hands and does Donovan recognize that’s what is is becoming. I guess it’s a non issue since the tony Jones tweet show’s that we may be trading him soon. We will find out soon
 
This team is not built around Rudy. Its just as much and probably much more built around Mitchell.

Gobert has dominated in the playoffs and does not get exposed or drop off. He has dominated plenty in the playoffs. Iso offensive basketball is not the only way to dominate a game. Gobert cant create for himself, but that doesnt mean he cant dominate. He has a huge positive impact on both ends and stats back that up.
 
If we are forced to trade either Mitchell or Gobert we have to trade Mitchell. His value will be way higher and we’d get way more for him. We’d be more likely to contend getting pieces for him than we would getting pieces for Gobert. Gobert is our entire defensive system where as we can make up the scoring we’d lose from Mitchell more than we could on defense from losing Gobert.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Donovan is going to be bad defensively at either guard position.

Donovan isnt a PG because his best skill is unrelenting pursuit of being an aggressive offensive player. His passing is mediocre besides being a pretty good drive and kick player. He isn't going to help a guy get going. He doesn't make players around him better. He's going to put a lot of defensive pressure on his backcourt partner because that player will always have to guard the tougher matchup.
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Mitchell has been great in the pick and roll. Arguably one of the best in the NBA this year. He is also creating a lot for others, just as much as anyone in our system. He has done it as well as Conley this season. Ingles is a distant 3rd this year. Mitchell is slightly better at it this year, but even last year he was solid here.

Mitchell is bad at either position on defense. Its an effort thing that needs to change, especially in the playoffs. If it was just him it would hurt but not too much. But when its multiple people it kills us and is contagious. Having Clarkson come in and put next to no effort on defense and not even look to pass on offense kills us unless he is red hot. Mitchell needs to be the leader and step up and call others out. But I dont think he will do that for a long time in his career. He is too buddy buddy with everyone.
 
Ron Mexico said:
This team is not built around Rudy. Its just as much and probably much more built around Mitchell.

Gobert has dominated in the playoffs and does not get exposed or drop off. He has dominated plenty in the playoffs. Iso offensive basketball is not the only way to dominate a game. Gobert cant create for himself, but that doesnt mean he cant dominate. He has a huge positive impact on both ends and stats back that up.
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What's that line from Billy Maddison where he receives zero points... this post is that.

Built around Don? Lol. Let's have zero perimeter defenders around him and have two ball dominant small guys as running mates. We got rid of Favors to give more space to Rudy by adding Bojan.

Yeah built around him...him being Rudy Gobert.

Rudy couldn't dominate Capella. Or Adams. Or Jokic. Or 6'3" guys from LA.

I'm so tired of the lazy excuse making Jazz fans who don't know basketball. This fanbase doesn't deserve Donovan Mitchell.

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