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Utah Jazz Survivor ROUND 12
- Thread starter UGLI baby
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There's been some good debate about who is better or has more potential out of Burks and Hayward. For those of you who watched or listened to Locke's Tipoff yesterday, Locke mentioned having lunch and a good conversation with Hayward recently. Locke mentioned how much Hayward believes in Burks and thinks that Burks is going to be great. That doesn't really tie into the debate but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Yeah, being suspended is a huge boost to the team.
That is locked in a tight playoff race.
The difference is A.) No one "beat anyone's ***" like you are suggesting Hayward should have done. B.) Nowitski didn't get a tech, the refs didn't handle it, so Favors should have put some pressure on them by reacting, the refs took care of what happened to Hayward.
He did do pretty good in the NIT though and many thought Colorado should have made the NCAA tourney.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
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When Kanter was guarding him Bynum struggled. Hayward had everything to do with that last turnover. The only reason he turned it over is because he couldn't get by Hayward, causing him to panic and lose the ball. It was a hell of a man up by Hayward.
he made a reverse layup withe the left hand at 1:40 mark and a dunk with the left hand at about the one minute mark. Wrong again nimrod!!
Hayward is a strategist with enough of a body to be a pro basketball player. You don't find players like Hayward very often. The kid has a will to win and the brains to figure out a way how. I think he's so much in his own head that it effects things that need to be automatic, like shooting the ball. I also think he'll get past that and be a very unique player that we're gonna want on our team.
Burks is a guy who might be playing NBA ball three years from now and might not. When he steps on the floor he is fully aware that he needs to make an NBA career happen. That's what I see, anyway. He's playing at 150MPH. He can get away with that because he has limited minutes and a very limited role. I don't think the Burks we've seen snippets of is anything close to what we should expect from a Burks with a cushy contract and guaranteed minutes every night. Then we'll see the 60MPH Burks and I think a lot of people are going to feel let down.
Or maybe not. Maybe Burks is the next Michael Jordan and I just don't have a very good eye for this stuff.
Burks is a guy who might be playing NBA ball three years from now and might not. When he steps on the floor he is fully aware that he needs to make an NBA career happen. That's what I see, anyway. He's playing at 150MPH. He can get away with that because he has limited minutes and a very limited role. I don't think the Burks we've seen snippets of is anything close to what we should expect from a Burks with a cushy contract and guaranteed minutes every night. Then we'll see the 60MPH Burks and I think a lot of people are going to feel let down.
Or maybe not. Maybe Burks is the next Michael Jordan and I just don't have a very good eye for this stuff.
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fishonjazz
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Nice alternate viewpoint.... I hope you are wrong, but you make alot of sense and could be right. He does seems to be pressing a bit out there and therefore going full speed all the time, and maybe with more minutes he wouldnt go full speed all the time.
However with more minutes he may stop trying to do too much and maybe become more of a distributor as well. Regardless i think we will learn alot about burks this year.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Are you saying he may pull an AK when he got paid, or am I just not getting it?
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i think "might not be playing ball in 3 years" is an exaggeration, but other than that, gameface's post is solid. burks is the least sure thing out of the four guys left, and that's why he's going to be voted out. it's not a bad thing -- he's the 4th most intriguing young talent on a team full of intriguing young talent.
i honestly hope that next year when we do this exercise, burks is a slam dunk for the top three. i really do, cuz that would be great for the franchise. but you just can't keep him over paul based on the 939 minutes we've seen so far. can't do it. there were flashes in those 939 where he was great, there were times in those 939 minutes when he was basically irrelevant, and there were times when he was really bad (in the way that pressing rookies are bad when they think they need to make everything happen for themselves now). that's ok, that's where he's sposta be at this point.
this year we'll see more, and hopefully there's not 6 pages of discussion next year about whether burks is in our top 3.
i honestly hope that next year when we do this exercise, burks is a slam dunk for the top three. i really do, cuz that would be great for the franchise. but you just can't keep him over paul based on the 939 minutes we've seen so far. can't do it. there were flashes in those 939 where he was great, there were times in those 939 minutes when he was basically irrelevant, and there were times when he was really bad (in the way that pressing rookies are bad when they think they need to make everything happen for themselves now). that's ok, that's where he's sposta be at this point.
this year we'll see more, and hopefully there's not 6 pages of discussion next year about whether burks is in our top 3.
UGLI baby
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Certainly a unique take on things.
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I voted for Alec simply because he has not proven himself yet. He could become Corey Maggette. Or he could turn into CJ Miles. Burks has had a few very impressive games. But so did CJ his first couple of years. Then Miles was given the opportunity to start at SG and failed. Then at SF and failed. Then as a 6th man...and had mixed results. As nerd said, Burks had a lot of "rookie" moments last season when he looked absolutely turrible. But I do think (and hope) that eliminating Burks from this poll next year will be much, much harder - and not just because Millsap may be with a different team.
I voted for Alec simply because he has not proven himself yet. He could become Corey Maggette. Or he could turn into CJ Miles. Burks has had a few very impressive games. But so did CJ his first couple of years. Then Miles was given the opportunity to start at SG and failed. Then at SF and failed. Then as a 6th man...and had mixed results. As nerd said, Burks had a lot of "rookie" moments last season when he looked absolutely turrible. But I do think (and hope) that eliminating Burks from this poll next year will be much, much harder - and not just because Millsap may be with a different team.
MVP
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lol, Kobe and panic??? are you serious? Watch it again, ball slipped from his hands, thats it. So Bynum struggled and still scored 33 pts despite being "destroyed by Kanter" - man, your homerism is pathetic.
Why you pointing to dunk? Did I argue about left handed dunks? One made layup does not prove that Hayward is good with his left hand. Big Al made one 3 point shot last season - can you claim he is good 3pt shooter? You need to see player using left hand in variety of ways and regularly to claim he has good left hand - for example Boozer, Bryant, Gasol, Howard - these players use left hand in effective way all the time, Hayward is not.
MVP
Well-Known Member
You can have your homer's opinion. It is ok to fall in love with your favorite team players. But lets see what experts like Holinger has to say:
It's a similar story defensively. Hayward is big and can jump -- he was seventh among shooting guards in blocks per minute -- but his overall defense needs considerable work. Synergy rated him the 10th-worst defender in the league with at least 200 plays defended, and while that's probably an exaggeration, the Jazz did defend better when he was off the court. Again, it would help if he could play the 3 rather than chase quicker 2s around, but even at the 3 he needs work on his post defense.
https://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/2012-13-uth-preview/utah-jazz-player-profiles
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
floor time stats are tricky though... i mean, i use them to at time, and i especially think looking at team offense when a PG is on the floor is fair game... but i'm not sure i'm ready to penalize hayward's D when he plays virtually all his minutes with al jefferson.
FWIW, Locke has an interesting rebuttal:
https://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonj...n-hayward-as-poor-a-defender-as-synergy-says/
MVP
Well-Known Member
Ha, Locke is a homer and of course he will try to find a way to dismiss numbers which contradicts his homer opinions. I found this quote interesting:
"The most important take-away I have from this article is Synergy Sports is a horrendous way to evaluate an individual defender’s overall performance. Defense is a team concept and this by definition isolates everything to a single individual and that is a fool hearty attem.
Thats exactly the point - to isolate everything to single individual defensive numbers. Hayward sucks according to them, why even argue that. Perhaps it has some flaws but to call it horendous???
So now he blames big AL for Hayward's poor defensive synergy numbers, or Jazz defensive schemes? ROFL. Maybe mister Locke can find better way to assess individual defensive skills besides his subjective observations from the film?
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
holy balls, how many pages are we going to dedicate to a discussion of how hayward's defense made a difference in one game.
here is a big, juicy truth nugget for all involved: you don't beat a team like the lakers on the road without several guys playing extremely well. hayward did. burks did. kanter did. hallelujah and amen.
here is a big, juicy truth nugget for all involved: you don't beat a team like the lakers on the road without several guys playing extremely well. hayward did. burks did. kanter did. hallelujah and amen.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Simple number game again:
Jazz pts allowed per 100 possesion in 48min with Hayward on the floor and off the floor. 108 vs 105.9. or Jazz allowed 2.1pt less with Hayward off the floor. Compare to Millsap for example - 3.1 pts more allowed when Millsap is off the floor. Favors - 3.4 more with him off the floor.... thats players who are good defenders and numbers support that.
https://www.82games.com/1112/11UTA8.HTM#onoff
Jazz pts allowed per 100 possesion in 48min with Hayward on the floor and off the floor. 108 vs 105.9. or Jazz allowed 2.1pt less with Hayward off the floor. Compare to Millsap for example - 3.1 pts more allowed when Millsap is off the floor. Favors - 3.4 more with him off the floor.... thats players who are good defenders and numbers support that.
https://www.82games.com/1112/11UTA8.HTM#onoff