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Wall or Shutdown

I see it's time for the weekly Thriller bashing. You know if he bugs you guys so much you can just ignore him.

Right? I honestly don't get it. I don't think what I bring up is radical politics. I read a lot of history and discuss these issues with others in my faculty. I get if some of it might be too deep or political for others to stomach. That's fine. But when entering a political thread I wish people would understand that it's bound to be political. If people want balance (nice things said about the GOP) they can go to CNN or Facebook. But for most of us who are into politics or study/teach history/politics for a living, we all understand the decline of the GOP and the threat that Trump poses for not only our country but for western democracy.

I guess that rubs people the wrong way? If they want a "balanced" approach, why don't they bring up facts to counter my concerns?
 
Right? I honestly don't get it. I don't think what I bring up is radical politics. I read a lot of history and discuss these issues with others in my faculty. I get if some of it might be too deep or political for others to stomach. That's fine. But when entering a political thread I wish people would understand that it's bound to be political. If people want balance (nice things said about the GOP) they can go to CNN or Facebook. But for most of us who are into politics or study/teach history/politics for a living, we all understand the decline of the GOP and the threat that Trump poses for not only our country but for western democracy.

I guess that rubs people the wrong way? If they want a "balanced" approach, why don't they bring up facts to counter my concerns?

It’s your tone. Nothing more. I’m not sure why that’s difficult to grasp.
 
Jon Meacham, the presidential historian and author of "The Soul of America: The Battle for Our Better Angels," said the shutdown comes at a defining moment in America, as an anxious public yearns for Washington to calm down and start solving the nation's problems.

"In a sense, American history can be understood as a perennial battle between fear, which manifests itself in a politics and culture of exclusion and defensiveness, and hope, which manifests itself in inclusion and larger-heartedness," said Meacham, who delivered the Dec. 5 eulogy for former president George H.W. Bush.

"We're now immersed in a fearful time, a moment where we speak of walls and tariffs rather than the free flow of ideas and people and goods. But here's the good - or at least goodish - news: History tells us that hope tends to win in the long run. There's the Klan, but then there's Dr. [Martin Luther] King. There's Joe McCarthy, but then there's [President Eisenhower].

"Right now, there's Trump. But if folks work hard enough, soon there'll be a restoration of dignity and forward thinking. That's the task."
---------------
At this moment, it's Trump driving the "politics and culture of exclusion and defensiveness", and the only Republicans who are even willing to point that out are those who are retiring from Congress. As for @Thriller, I find he is following current events very closely, and he describes those current events as succinctly as anyone on this board. It's not his fault that Republicans are fine with being the party of Trump. It's not his fault that Trumpism is ascendant and Republicans are terrified of the president. Trump tweets, and Republicans cower. Fox News dictates domestic policy and Republicans cower.

Maybe Anne Coulter will be the next head of Homeland Security....

LOL Ann Coulter...

It's pretty safe to assume that had Coulter and Limbaugh not attacked Trump a week ago then our government would still be funded and opened today. But maybe that's not a balanced thing to say? Did my tone offend someone here?

Anyway, have you read Timothy Snyder's "Road to Unfreedom" yet? Fantastic read. Think... Escape from Freedom combined with Russian Roulette and Gen. Hayden's book on facts. Really interesting read.

Soul of America is on my bookshelf. Haven't read it yet...

There's a reason why historians like Meacham are sounding the alarms. But is our country listening? Or will we be offended because he isn't balanced enough or the tone he takes is just too alarmist?
 
It’s your tone. Nothing more. I’m not sure why that’s difficult to grasp.

Yeah, and I really don't think that should matter compared to the content written, discussed, or provided links to. Stop entering my threads or put me on ignore if I'm too offensive. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp.
 
Yeah, and I really don't think that should matter compared to the content written, discussed, or provided links to. Stop entering my threads or put me on ignore if I'm too offensive. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp.

Carry on then. Keep doing your thing and driving the wedge.
 
Carry on then. Keep doing your thing and driving the wedge.

I'm not driving a wedge by reporting/discussing real issues and facts no matter the tone taken. You can agree to disagree but that's ridiculous to accuse me of driving a wedge (between what exactly? Republicans and democrats? Between people who find my tone to be too alarmist? I don't even understand who I'm dividing!)

Carry on
 
Yeah, and I really don't think that should matter compared to the content written, discussed, or provided links to. Stop entering my threads or put me on ignore if I'm too offensive. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp.
You're not offensive and you are not too deep (that was good for a laugh).

You are VERY one-sided.
 
Anyway, have you read Timothy Snyder's "Road to Unfreedom" yet? Fantastic read. Think... Escape from Freedom combined with Russian Roulette and Gen. Hayden's book on facts. Really interesting read.

No, not yet, but thanks for the recommendation. I have a copy of his booklet "On Tyranny", obviously, and I think he's one of the best observers and interpreters of our era in history.

Your link to the USA Today article by Tom Nichols, that you posted earlier today, introduced me to Nichols's book "The Death of Expertise", which sounds like it's right up my alley. So thanks for that. I went and read a few of the reviews. It's obvious to me that Trump himself is an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, the very last thing we need in the Oval Office. But the trashing of intellectual "elites" and the transition to a Post Truth enviornment really interests me, and is something I regard as terribly injurious to democracy.
 
Right? I honestly don't get it. I don't think what I bring up is radical politics. I read a lot of history and discuss these issues with others in my faculty. I get if some of it might be too deep or political for others to stomach. That's fine. But when entering a political thread I wish people would understand that it's bound to be political. If people want balance (nice things said about the GOP) they can go to CNN or Facebook. But for most of us who are into politics or study/teach history/politics for a living, we all understand the decline of the GOP and the threat that Trump poses for not only our country but for western democracy.

I guess that rubs people the wrong way? If they want a "balanced" approach, why don't they bring up facts to counter my concerns?

imo it seems ironic that you of all folks consider yourself a judge or advocate for "western democracy", and for sure nobody who goes to CNN or Facebook is gonna get any balance, either.

History, it seems, is written and edited continuously by whoever has the bully pulpit, academically speaking. It's trendy now to push a political agenda, a vision of things convenient for the "right" people. The "Right People" today might be including some newbs that weren't particularly important, say in the 1950s or 1960s, the era of Post WWII elites of America, but the important interests haven't changed much, really. Our Media was run in sync back then, with three major components.... ABC, NBC, and CBS.

Of particular note, David Rockefeller, who passed last spring, made it a point to speak to a media gathering about how "He couldn't have done it without them". What did he do, in his opinion? He established a solid movement towards world governance. He even wrote a book about it, so proud he was of his life's work.

But it was not he alone.... he had serious help from the Brit Royals, always looking forward for their commonwealth interests, and many leading industrialists around the world, and even the "Statist Marxists/Capitalists" of Russia and China. Folks like Putin, for example, who have morphed from ideological Marxist towards oligarchic Statist/Fascists with a few trappings to assuage the common folk, a return to local traditional values. In Russia, that means Orthodox Christianity and connections with the common folk. In China, that means Confucian traditional philosophical guidelines and traditional emphasis on social conformity just like under the Chinese Emperors across thousands of years of "the World's Greatest Traditions".

Anyone, like Thriller, who can't see the difference between Western democratic ideas including the Magna Carta and the US Constitutional rights of human beings, and Statist governance, is no kind of authority on the subject.

The central ideas of the global management do not include elected governing officials. Where local guvmints have such "elected" officials, if they do not comply with the new programs well enough, they are bound to be treated like Trump.
 
You want to talk about healthcare, this is a thread about funding for a border wall.

Pretty sure I will rally the opposition to unite, after all. But it does you credit to discuss issues amongst yourselves in a way that shows actually thought going on.
 
My basic reasons for wanting some serious additions to actual wall segments boil down to eliminating convenient crossing points used by the gang/cartel human traffickers and drug runners. I've been on the border. I've seen Mexican authorities arrest drug runners. I've been in areas of Juarez within a few hundred yards of the "Rio Grande"..... lol.... it is a ditch without enough water to keep a toddler from walking through it. Well, maybe sometimes it runs a lot more.

The gangs that compete for the human traffic still get thousands of dollars per person. They still have serious mortality among their customers, and still run folks with criminal records.... often with a child not their own for a free pass.....

If only to stop the human loss of life in their business.... if only to interdict the drug runners.... the fentanyl from China which costs us thousands of our young people every year.

I don't see how the idea of worldwide immigration for employment, for political fragmentation of cohesive populations, or for the Marxist dream of "no borders" really is more compelling than saving human lives by the thousands.

The most reasonable idea forward is building business opportunities.... jobs and resource development.... production facilities.... in place the world over. Let people stay home and prosper.
 
Let me clear something up.

I think Trump represents something extraordinarily bad. Something that has already done significant damage to our nation and has the potential to do much more damage. I think Trump is a special situation. He is something that I think needs to be opposed with every fiber of our being as a decent people.

He has taken over the Republican party. It was easy because of the marriage between evangelical Christian conservatives and the Republican party. They feel like they are losing their grip on "their" country and they want someone who can save them from their worst nightmare, that they get treated the same way Mexicans, black people and Muslims get treated. Trump has massive appeal to them. He is "telling it like it is," which is to say, he is saying what they want to hear, regardless of any basis in facts. They want to believe it. They'll believe it no matter what kind of cockamamy false reality they have to construct to keep on believing it.

Republicans who have stood up to him have been destroyed by Trump's rabid base. So, they've stopped standing up to him. It's disgraceful, but they don't see any other way.

The Republicans will emerge from this tattered and torn. I'm honestly not sure if the party as we've known it for my lifetime will survive. The racists and the fundamentalist Christians aren't going to just go away. They are going to be fielding candidates and doing everything to weild whatever power they have for as long as they can. If the Republican party wants to be the party that takes them onboard and fights their fight... well, I guess we'll see where that gets them. But if there is a split and fiscal conservatism and otherwise reasonably inclusive policy wins out and rejects the racists and religious fundamentalists then the Republican party will have to evolve and evolve quickly. They'll need to replace that block of voters.

Anyway, I'm going off-topic.

Right now it isn't a case of both parties suck equally. Right now the party of Trump is dragging our nation into the dirt like it has never been dragged into the dirt before. The rejection of reality is scary. The rationalization of anything and everything in an us vs them political climate is a clear and present danger to the U.S.. This is a special threat and needs to be treated that way.

But that doesn't mean Democrats are good and wholesome and in this to save the day. I don't need to politely listen to nonsense about how great the policies the Democrats will enact are going to be. This, for me, is not a fight to get the Democrats in power so they can do all the wonderful things they want to do, this is a fight to get Trump the **** out of office and make clear that his actions have been unacceptable and that we should never allow something like this or someone like him to be our President ever again. That the nationalists have no place at the big boy table. That fundamental Christianity is not compatible with modern society and we don't have to accept them controlling a political party.
 
Let me clear something up.

I think Trump represents something extraordinarily bad. Something that has already done significant damage to our nation and has the potential to do much more damage. I think Trump is a special situation. He is something that I think needs to be opposed with every fiber of our being as a decent people.

He has taken over the Republican party. It was easy because of the marriage between evangelical Christian conservatives and the Republican party. They feel like they are losing their grip on "their" country and they want someone who can save them from their worst nightmare, that they get treated the same way Mexicans, black people and Muslims get treated. Trump has massive appeal to them. He is "telling it like it is," which is to say, he is saying what they want to hear, regardless of any basis in facts. They want to believe it. They'll believe it no matter what kind of ****amamy false reality they have to construct to keep on believing it.

Republicans who have stood up to him have been destroyed by Trump's rabid base. So, they've stopped standing up to him. It's disgraceful, but they don't see any other way.

The Republicans will emerge from this tattered and torn. I'm honestly not sure if the party as we've known it for my lifetime will survive. The racists and the fundamentalist Christians aren't going to just go away. They are going to be fielding candidates and doing everything to weild whatever power they have for as long as they can. If the Republican party wants to be the party that takes them onboard and fights their fight... well, I guess we'll see where that gets them. But if there is a split and fiscal conservatism and otherwise reasonably inclusive policy wins out and rejects the racists and religious fundamentalists then the Republican party will have to evolve and evolve quickly. They'll need to replace that block of voters.

Anyway, I'm going off-topic.

Right now it isn't a case of both parties suck equally. Right now the party of Trump is dragging our nation into the dirt like it has never been dragged into the dirt before. The rejection of reality is scary. The rationalization of anything and everything in an us vs them political climate is a clear and present danger to the U.S.. This is a special threat and needs to be treated that way.

But that doesn't mean Democrats are good and wholesome and in this to save the day. I don't need to politely listen to nonsense about how great the policies the Democrats will enact are going to be. This, for me, is not a fight to get the Democrats in power so they can do all the wonderful things they want to do, this is a fight to get Trump the **** out of office and make clear that his actions have been unacceptable and that we should never allow something like this or someone like him to be our President ever again. That the nationalists have no place at the big boy table. That fundamental Christianity is not compatible with modern society and we don't have to accept them controlling a political party.

Quite a rant. I don't doubt this is what you "stand for".

Pretty distorted reality, tho. "Fundamentalist Christians" are hardly racist. While there is of course a sort of spectrum of folks who would accept the label "Fundamentalist" along with "Christian", it generally refers to the segment of Christians who focus on the Bible as the authority of reference for discussions of their faith.

Almost all such believers support missions all over the world, without reference to race or ethnicity. They classify humans as humans without much more distinction than "saved" or "unsaved", and are full of compassion for the unsaved.

For the most part, the people you seem to classify as worthy of such vitriol or hatred are those who support the human rights held up in the "Bill of Rights" addendum to the US Constitution.

I consider the "Bill of Rights" a sort of initial go at what rights all people should have. For the most part..... China, India, Russia..... all Islamic countries.... most banana republic sorts of governments, do not do as well in regard to respecting human rights. Most countries are sort of elitist regimes where an oligarchal or cliquish little set of privileged few don't really have to care much for the mass of their population.

That is why, as one reason, a lot of folks think America, even under Trump, is a better place.

Trump has a sort of privileged set of his own. He has included many of his opponents inside the US elite set to contribute to his administration. He has tried to be inclusive. And many of those have been overtly disloyal to him, but he has tried to hang on to them because he knows he cannot achieve anything without broad support including those who have opposed him.

I think the outfits that oppose Trump are less liberal, and less democratic, in reality, than "fundamentalist Christians", who include many democrats in their number.... though probably few Marxists.
 
Let me clear something up.

I think Trump represents something extraordinarily bad. Something that has already done significant damage to our nation and has the potential to do much more damage. I think Trump is a special situation. He is something that I think needs to be opposed with every fiber of our being as a decent people.

He has taken over the Republican party. It was easy because of the marriage between evangelical Christian conservatives and the Republican party. They feel like they are losing their grip on "their" country and they want someone who can save them from their worst nightmare, that they get treated the same way Mexicans, black people and Muslims get treated. Trump has massive appeal to them. He is "telling it like it is," which is to say, he is saying what they want to hear, regardless of any basis in facts. They want to believe it. They'll believe it no matter what kind of ****amamy false reality they have to construct to keep on believing it.

Republicans who have stood up to him have been destroyed by Trump's rabid base. So, they've stopped standing up to him. It's disgraceful, but they don't see any other way.

The Republicans will emerge from this tattered and torn. I'm honestly not sure if the party as we've known it for my lifetime will survive. The racists and the fundamentalist Christians aren't going to just go away. They are going to be fielding candidates and doing everything to weild whatever power they have for as long as they can. If the Republican party wants to be the party that takes them onboard and fights their fight... well, I guess we'll see where that gets them. But if there is a split and fiscal conservatism and otherwise reasonably inclusive policy wins out and rejects the racists and religious fundamentalists then the Republican party will have to evolve and evolve quickly. They'll need to replace that block of voters.

Anyway, I'm going off-topic.

Right now it isn't a case of both parties suck equally. Right now the party of Trump is dragging our nation into the dirt like it has never been dragged into the dirt before. The rejection of reality is scary. The rationalization of anything and everything in an us vs them political climate is a clear and present danger to the U.S.. This is a special threat and needs to be treated that way.

But that doesn't mean Democrats are good and wholesome and in this to save the day. I don't need to politely listen to nonsense about how great the policies the Democrats will enact are going to be. This, for me, is not a fight to get the Democrats in power so they can do all the wonderful things they want to do, this is a fight to get Trump the **** out of office and make clear that his actions have been unacceptable and that we should never allow something like this or someone like him to be our President ever again. That the nationalists have no place at the big boy table. That fundamental Christianity is not compatible with modern society and we don't have to accept them controlling a political party.
Yeah my previous response was unfair, but I think it's worth pointing out that the GOP's issues have been evident long before Trump, he's really just the inevitable culmination of decades of their bad faith know-nothingness. And the Democrats, flawed as they are, are still miles above the GOP even if only becuase they actually have interest in governing. I don't think it takes a particularly partisan person to believe this. They even happen to have many policies with broad public support! That someone is critical only to Republicans only goes to show how truly ****** they are.
 
Quite a rant. I don't doubt this is what you "stand for".

Pretty distorted reality, tho. "Fundamentalist Christians" are hardly racist. While there is of course a sort of spectrum of folks who would accept the label "Fundamentalist" along with "Christian", it generally refers to the segment of Christians who focus on the Bible as the authority of reference for discussions of their faith.

Almost all such believers support missions all over the world, without reference to race or ethnicity. They classify humans as humans without much more distinction than "saved" or "unsaved", and are full of compassion for the unsaved.

For the most part, the people you seem to classify as worthy of such vitriol or hatred are those who support the human rights held up in the "Bill of Rights" addendum to the US Constitution.

I consider the "Bill of Rights" a sort of initial go at what rights all people should have. For the most part..... China, India, Russia..... all Islamic countries.... most banana republic sorts of governments, do not do as well in regard to respecting human rights. Most countries are sort of elitist regimes where an oligarchal or cliquish little set of privileged few don't really have to care much for the mass of their population.

That is why, as one reason, a lot of folks think America, even under Trump, is a better place.

Trump has a sort of privileged set of his own. He has included many of his opponents inside the US elite set to contribute to his administration. He has tried to be inclusive. And many of those have been overtly disloyal to him, but he has tried to hang on to them because he knows he cannot achieve anything without broad support including those who have opposed him.

I think the outfits that oppose Trump are less liberal, and less democratic, in reality, than "fundamentalist Christians", who include many democrats in their number.... though probably few Marxists.
Notice I seperated fundamentalist Christians and racists by using the word "and". It's basic ****ing English, babe.

Christians can have missions all over the world to make lives better over there. That's fine. Fundamentalist evangelicals have a very strong connection to wanting to keep the U.S. for "their kind." They think this is their nation. It is not. So you can talk about the charity that regular Christians do all over the world, that has not a single thing to do with conservative Christian politics in the U.S.. Not a single thing.

The rights held up by the Bill Of Rights is under threat from Trumpism. If you can't see that it is because you don't want to see that.

I can recite the Bill Of Rights, babe. Did you know the majority of the rights in the Bill Of Rights revolves around the rights of the accused? Or did you stop reading at Amendment 2?

Let's go over the English language one more time, babe. Every time I referred to Christians I either said "evangelical," "fundamentalist," or "conservative." So you can stop acting like I'm talking about Christianity. And for clarification, when I say conservative Christian, I'm not talking about a Christian person who happens to be conservative, I'm talking about a very specific political movement to join religion and politics and to use religion as a way to control votes and to exclude and disenfranchise non-Christians.
 
Notice I seperated fundamentalist Christians and racists by using the word "and". It's basic ****ing English, babe.

Christians can have missions all over the world to make lives better over there. That's fine. Fundamentalist evangelicals have a very strong connection to wanting to keep the U.S. for "their kind." They think this is their nation. It is not. So you can talk about the charity that regular Christians do all over the world, that has not a single thing to do with conservative Christian politics in the U.S.. Not a single thing.

The rights held up by the Bill Of Rights is under threat from Trumpism. If you can't see that it is because you don't want to see that.

I can recite the Bill Of Rights, babe. Did you know the majority of the rights in the Bill Of Rights revolves around the rights of the accused? Or did you stop reading at Amendment 2?

Let's go over the English language one more time, babe. Every time I referred to Christians I either said "evangelical," "fundamentalist," or "conservative." So you can stop acting like I'm talking about Christianity. And for clarification, when I say conservative Christian, I'm not talking about a Christian person who happens to be conservative, I'm talking about a very specific political movement to join religion and politics and to use religion as a way to control votes and to exclude and disenfranchise non-Christians.

Trump gets support from some traditional "D" voting "groups"..... non-government union membership, latino/Mexican ethnic US citizens..... the immigrants who've moved on up, so to speak. Ethnic Cuban US citizens. Ethnic Filipino US citizens.... ethnic citizens with all kinds of original heritage.... An increasing black vote as well.

I think you're nuts calling Republicans any kind of racist. 98% are not. Lincoln thought slavery was repugnant. Really. A few maybe, maybe holed up in the woods of Washinton State or Oregon. My gal Sonnie Johnson points out the historical turning point for the Republican abandonment of the black vote..... led by Republican progressives, the antecedents of todays RINOs like Romney and the Bushes, beginning in the 1890s. The Rs had the black vote, then just dropped the ball. But the Ds were racists, "The Racists", who held on to segregation until the 1960s while Republicans were voting for change of all that. The Ds have more of al historical connection with the KKK clear down to Sen. Byrd of VA who was so important to the Clintons, along with other racists of recent note. The Ds owe their black vote to LBJ and the Great Society.... but a lot of blacks are now rethinking all that, and hating on the socialism of it. Wanting opportunity like what Trump is promoting.

I might be more on board with your analysis of the R and D parties generally. I think they both stink. Trump does not fit in with the program. You'd do better stinkin' up on the mainstream Rs.
 
Trump gets support from some traditional "D" voting "groups"..... non-government union membership, latino/Mexican ethnic US citizens..... the immigrants who've moved on up, so to speak. Ethnic Cuban US citizens. Ethnic Filipino US citizens.... ethnic citizens with all kinds of original heritage.... An increasing black vote as well.

I think you're nuts calling Republicans any kind of racist. 98% are not. Lincoln thought slavery was repugnant. Really. A few maybe, maybe holed up in the woods of Washinton State or Oregon. My gal Sonnie Johnson points out the historical turning point for the Republican abandonment of the black vote..... led by Republican progressives, the antecedents of todays RINOs like Romney and the Bushes, beginning in the 1890s. The Rs had the black vote, then just dropped the ball. But the Ds were racists, "The Racists", who held on to segregation until the 1960s while Republicans were voting for change of all that. The Ds have more of al historical connection with the KKK clear down to Sen. Byrd of VA who was so important to the Clintons, along with other racists of recent note. The Ds owe their black vote to LBJ and the Great Society.... but a lot of blacks are now rethinking all that, and hating on the socialism of it. Wanting opportunity like what Trump is promoting.

I might be more on board with your analysis of the R and D parties generally. I think they both stink. Trump does not fit in with the program. You'd do better stinkin' up on the mainstream Rs.
I DID NOT CALL REPUBLICANS RACIST.

LEARN TO READ!
 
babe's analysis of the religious Christian communities...…

Unitarians, Anglicans, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Methodists..... liberals. progressives.

Lutherans, Church of Christ, a variety of independents..... moderates,maybe even some republicans.

Baptists.... a whole lot of varieties.... "Fundamentalists" mostly Republicans, very few real "conservatives".

The abortion issue pulls "conservatives" out from whatever other classifications and makes them a nuisance to the mainstream Republican party because there's enough of them any Republican can be upended for being pro-choice.... except for the likes of a Romney who are just that good at smoothly lying to everyone.

The progressive agenda, with secular or atheist supporters, alienates a lot of people even democrats who simply think being a democrat means supporting working folks politically, and is such a toxic political agenda/belief system that it makes a lot of decent dems decide to leave the dem party because the dem party has gone amok.

I don't care how many illegal immigrants are coming here and voting democratic. Most of them will figure it all out soon enough. They are coming here for opportunity more than for socialism or handouts. What they want is a chance to work for better pay.

The long run will bring them into the realities of the American tradition, out of the progressive myth.
 
well, I though it was implicit in the hate. Glad for the clarification. I'll take your word for it.
The hate?

What a joke.

Don't confuse passion for hate. I know English is tricky for you. I hope for your sake it is at the least a third or fourth language and not your native tongue, because you suck at comprehending it.
 
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