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colton said:
Without using the "c-word", how do you explain the fact that just after the blessing, the IMC ER had a 1.5 hr wait, which prompted him to go to a different hospital where the doctor there finally was able to give the proper diagnosis?
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Unless I misread, TroutBum asked for a new diagnosis on the second visit. Thaqt probably would have happened at either hospital.
 
One Brow said:
Unless I misread, TroutBum asked for a new diagnosis on the second visit. That probably would have happened at either hospital.
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Also, if I were a doctor and a patient came to me explaining that situation, I would take my time to listen to him to see what exactly they did and why he wasn't better. It would help you find the problem that much quicker. I think that's just common sense, you don't have to be doctor to realize that.
 
You all are missing the point, although YB's "Oincidence" made me smile. The point isn't that the things that solved Trout's problem couldn't have happened due to natural phenomena--they certainly could--it's that they happened directly after the blessing... whereas he was struggling for days and days before getting the blessing. Therefore the blessing either facilitated matters, or else it was just coincidence that these things happened right after the blessing. The believer will see it one way; the unbeliever will see it the other way.
 
So God decided to cause ER worthy injuries/illnesses to happen to enough people to make the IMC so busy that he had to go to LDS hospital. This sounds completely negative, but I promise it isn't. I'm open to the idea, just not for me etc. I just think that it is one of those things that seems like a miracle if you look at it from one person's point of view, but if you are going to believe there was divine intervention or whatever that caused this to happen, it actually was worse for everyone but trout. I'm gonna go with "oincidence".
 
colton said:
You all are missing the point, although YB's "Oincidence" made me smile. The point isn't that the things that solved Trout's problem couldn't have happened due to natural phenomena--they certainly could--it's that they happened directly after the blessing... whereas he was struggling for days and days before getting the blessing. Therefore the blessing either facilitated matters, or else it was just coincidence that these things happened right after the blessing. The believer will see it one way; the unbeliever will see it the other way.
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And thus we have a classic correlation/causation problem.

To a certain extent I think those trying to "disprove" that religion had something to do with it are missing the point (and we all know how religious I am). At the end of the day spiritual belief makes Trout feel better, feel more connected to his fellow man, and appreciate his life to a greater extent and the things that happen to him, whether divinely guided or coincidental, a little bit more. He's gained a greater appreciation for the fragility of his life and the strands that connect him to those he loves.

If this was the only aspect of religion that mattered, would any of us have bad opinions of religion? I know I wouldn't. Hell, I'd probably be the Pope.

There is not one ounce of hatred of others, exclusion of "sinners," or moral justifications to commit petty acts or crimes against his fellow man contained in Trout's post. No one should have a problem with that kind of sincere belief. There's even a bit of acknowledgement that other beliefs might have access to the same kind of knowledge or power.

It doesn't matter whether or not it objectively happened, what matters is that it is unequivocally a positive in this instance. Here, religion is all upside. And frankly, it's a little twisted to try and take it away from him.
 
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Agoxlea said:
So God decided to cause ER worthy injuries/illnesses to happen to enough people to make the IMC so busy that he had to go to LDS hospital. This sounds completely negative, but I promise it isn't. I'm open to the idea, just not for me etc. I just think that it is one of those things that seems like a miracle if you look at it from one person's point of view, but if you are going to believe there was divine intervention or whatever that caused this to happen, it actually was worse for everyone but trout. I'm gonna go with "oincidence".
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He is, "Trout" after all.
 
Archie Moses said:
Dave, great post.

I think some of the posters are missing the point of why you have a strong spiritual feeling about what happened. Anyone could have told you to go to the hospital, however, during a blessing of health, one is expected to hear, get better or you will overcome this this, etc. I do feel that your friend was prompted by the spirit telling you to go to the hospital because nothing else could have healed you or helped you from your misery. The fact that you listened and recovered was you exercising your faith as well.

It's pretty cool to see such an *** clap such as yourself share an awesome story that read very powerful and spiritual.
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I think Archie brings up an excellent point here. As many here are not Mormon or may have not received or given a blessing there is a strong correlation between these blessings and some form of wording referring to healing/feeling better. The fact that Trout's friend did not mention healing or even being relieved of pain is a pretty big omission when it comes to these matters. It is almost always a part of these blessings. While common sense tells you to go to the hospital, in Trout's case, had the Elder mentioned healing or even pain relief, Trout may have very well waited until the following morning. In my mind, the fact that nothing at all was mentioned regarding healing is a pretty big deal.
 
colton said:
Therefore the blessing either facilitated matters, or else it was just coincidence that these things happened right after the blessing. The believer will see it one way; the unbeliever will see it the other way.
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I call neither way. Do I still get to be an unbeliever?

TroutBum said he called for the blessing because he was desparate. It was not coincidence that TroutBum received the blessing right before he went to the hospital, the blessing was the last attempt to not go to the hospital. Note that while I have a personal opinion of which everyone is well aware, this explanation of the sequence fits in well with both the notion that the blessing helped TroutBum (at the very least, to get over his stubbornness), which itself fits in with both a believer and non-believer take on the situation (ther blessing being a physical event at which TroutBum was present, it could have an effect on TroutBum's actions in mystical or non-mystical ways).
 
Sirkickyass said:
To a certain extent I think those trying to "disprove" that religion had something to do with it are missing the point (and we all know how religious I am).
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I agree with the whole post, and especially with this. My apologies if that has not been clear.
 
Scat said:
I think Archie brings up an excellent point here. As many here are not Mormon or may have not received or given a blessing there is a strong correlation between these blessings and some form of wording referring to healing/feeling better. The fact that Trout's friend did not mention healing or even being relieved of pain is a pretty big omission when it comes to these matters. It is almost always a part of these blessings. While common sense tells you to go to the hospital, in Trout's case, had the Elder mentioned healing or even pain relief, Trout may have very well waited until the following morning. In my mind, the fact that nothing at all was mentioned regarding healing is a pretty big deal.
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One Brow said:
I call neither way. Do I still get to be an unbeliever?

TroutBum said he called for the blessing because he was desparate. It was not coincidence that TroutBum received the blessing right before he went to the hospital, the blessing was the last attempt to not go to the hospital. Note that while I have a personal opinion of which everyone is well aware, this explanation of the sequence fits in well with both the notion that the blessing helped TroutBum (at the very least, to get over his stubbornness), which itself fits in with both a believer and non-believer take on the situation (ther blessing being a physical event at which TroutBum was present, it could have an effect on TroutBum's actions in mystical or non-mystical ways).
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See my above post. If healing/relief had been mentioned in the blessing Trout may have very well put off the ER trip for a few more hours as you yourself admit that the blessing was a last attempt to avoid the ER. The highly unusual omission of healing/relief in the blessing prompted Trout to go to the ER immediately.
 
Sirkickyass said:
And thus we have a classic correlation/causation problem.

To a certain extent I think those trying to "disprove" that religion had something to do with it are missing the point (and we all know how religious I am). At the end of the day spiritual belief makes Trout feel better, feel more connected to his fellow man, and appreciate his life to a greater extent and the things that happen to him, whether divinely guided or coincidental, a little bit more. He's gained a greater appreciation for the fragility of his life and the strands that connect him to those he loves.

If this was the only aspect of religion that mattered, would any of us have bad opinions of religion? I know I wouldn't. Hell, I'd probably be the Pope.

There is not one ounce of hatred of others, exclusion of "sinners," or moral justifications to commit petty acts or crimes against his fellow man contained in Trout's post. No one should have a problem with that kind of sincere belief. There's even a bit of acknowledgement that other beliefs might have access to the same kind of knowledge or power.

It doesn't matter whether or not it objectively happened, what matters is that it is unequivocally a positive in this instance. Here, religion is all upside. And frankly, it's a little twisted to try and take it away from him.
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Yep.
 
Sirkickyass said:
It doesn't matter whether or not it objectively happened, what matters is that it is unequivocally a positive in this instance. Here, religion is all upside. And frankly, it's a little twisted to try and take it away from him.
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I don't think anybody is trying to take it away from him. Seems like Trout made this thread in a effort to see what everybody else thought. I totally see how Trout comes away from this feeling the way he does and I think that's great. However, I just don't think it takes gods intervention for Trouts friend to see him writhing on the floor in agonizing pain and realizing that this guy doesn't need to hear the words "get better", he needs medical attention immediately. An earlier poster made a great point: Did god make it so an ER had an hour and a half wait worth of sicknesses/injuries simply for the purpose of facilitating Trout's miracle? I doubt it works that way.
 
I think the real question in all of this is...

Could god make a burrito sooo hot, that even he couldn't eat it?
 
JazzSpazz said:
What is interesting is he went to the hospital before and they did nothing. This time when he went they were full, so he got bugged and went to a different hospital where he got different doctors that were willing to check into the issue more. I would say there was some help from "on high" to get you fixed. I'm glad you made it through Trout. By the way, are you just a little more grateful to be alive after this experience? Are you a little bit more humble? Are you a little bit more happy with what you have, and the people around you than you were before your near death experience? In my opinion that is one of the results, if not reasons why things like this can happen to people. What do I know though.
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Near-death experiences are not this cut and dried. Almost always they change the person, from my experience, but they can have implications that last far into the future and forever change your life in ways you would never have imagined. Sometimes in ways you never wanted or cannot come to terms with.
 
I think the real spiritual question is....what kind of voodoo black magic vengeance spell did the guy that wanted to kick your *** from your political offerings put you under?

Glad you made out okay, dude. Opening the pipeline to God never hurts.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Near-death experiences are not this cut and dried. Almost always they change the person, from my experience, but they can have implications that last far into the future and forever change your life in ways you would never have imagined. Sometimes in ways you never wanted or cannot come to terms with.
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I'm not going to argue with this. I am also not going to try to post every thought I have on this, or other near death experiences as I would not have time to live my life, and would have to re-log in to Jazzfanz way too many times, not to mention break the post up into multiple posts.
I was not implying that this was a simple/cut and dried experience but saying a few things to Trout I thought were important.
 
As an agnostic I am glad you are okay and I am glad you had a powerful experience that made you look at life from a different view. It sounds like this made you a better/happier person so that is a great outcome from a crappy situation regardless of what powers or not powers were at hand.
 
Whether or not what we experienced was an "According to Hoyle" miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved.
 
I liked your story. I'm glad you survived to continue posting on this board, hating CJ, loving the Jazz, and hopefully win your election.

But have you considered the possibility Satan spared your life? Maybe he possessed your friend against god's will to keep you alive because he has plans for you. I'm cool with that, but if you are an evil and powerful flower that is still blossoming, I would hope you could bring us a championship before you destroy the world. Thanks in advance.
 
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