Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[InGameStrategy]

S2, I'm not trying to respond to your claims, just like you don't respond to my posts or questions, except on a very selective basis. You simply re-iterate your cliams, ad infinitum, and ignore any counter argument.

Question, though. How is it possible for Fess to be a better free throw shooter and display better moves in the block with "experience" when he aint never got no experience?

He did have in-game experience this summer--overseas. And it has been confirmed by an inside source that he was making free throws in practice, so your peripheral argument about free throws would point to giving him more playing time, not less. Fesenko didn't even shoot 100 free throws in games for the ENTIRE YEAR. That's less than two free throws per game played, and far less than two free throw attempts per available game.

It is counterproductive to completely shut off a player's playing time. If you want to penalize a player for "jackpotting," then give him 8 to 10 MPG instead of 10 to 15 MPG. But don't DNP for games on end. Whatever Fes was or was not doing in practice couldn't have warranted that. Again, the reason to play him is so that you get a player by the middle of last season who starts making free throws instead of throwing him into the fire against two of the top teams in the NBA and then expect him to hit shots under pressure.

The reason that I repeat things to you is that you conveniently ignore what doesn't fit your argument.

 

[InGameStrategy]

P.S. It's disingenuous for you to claim, Hopper, that I'm not addressing your claims when I am dissecting them surgically.

 

[Hopper]

It's as simple as this: Sloan has some metric for what you have to do in order to earn playing time. "Earn" here is the operative word.

It's obvious that Fes was too much of a goofball/didn't take things seriously/[whatever] to earn playing time in Sloan's offense.

Whether or not Fes "deserves" playing time is irrelevant because according to Sloan's metric, Fes did not earn it.

I'm fairly sure Fes knew that practicing hard/taking things seriously is a prerequisite for earning playing time. The blame is squarely on him for not molding himself to Sloan...rather than the blame being on Sloan for not molding to Fes.

Sloan, on princiiple, refuses to teach them "how to lose" by handing out playin time regardless of effort, or so he says. Guys like S2 don't care about such things. Guys like S2 would advocate scrapping the entire system if they got a player like Tracy McGrady or Marshmello in favor of a plan to just give the ball to (insert name of "superstar" who gives half-assed effort) and let him operate. The rest of you just be ready to rebound. Discipline and effort be damned if you think a player is "good."

As I've related before, Sloan has told the story about how, one year, the players were all sayin they wanted less structure and more opportunity to freelance. Sloan said, if that's what you really want, that's what we'll do.

After about 10 or 15 games of this, the Jazz were, like, 5-10. Stockton came to Sloan and complained that the strategy wasn't winning games.

Sloan said: "Whoever said anything about winning? That's not why we're playin, is it? Isn't the point simply to go out, have fun, not strain yourself, show-off your one-on-one skills to the crowd, collect a paycheck, go home, and come back tomorrow and do the same thing all over again? Isn't that what we want?"

By popular demand (or if not "popular," then by demand of the leadership players who put winning first) the team re-implemented the reliable old "boring" system, which is based upon a lot of effort, brusing picks, and strict discipline but which gives a better chance of winning.

 

[Hopper]

He did have in-game experience this summer--overseas.

Well, which is it, S2? Now you can "develop" in overseas games? Can you also develop in college games, ya figure? Can you "develop" in high school games? Can you "develop" in practice and intrasquad games? I thought it was ONLY NBA games that permitted development and improvement, eh? Next thing I know, you'll be sayin it's possible to improve by spendin 4-5 hours in the gym all by your lonesome.

If you can develop elsewhere, and aint NBA ready, then maybe you should be where you can develop into a NBA quality player, rather than riding an NBA bench due to lack of development.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Sloan, on princiiple, refuses to teach them "how to lose" by handing out playin time regardless of effort, or so he says. Guys like S2 don't care about such things.

Yes I do care. If anything, Sloan taught Okur "how to lose" by letting him get away with playing bad defense frequently and not benching him for it. So unfortunately your claim doesn't carry.

Guys like S2 would advocate scrapping the entire system if they got a player like Tracy McGrady or Marshmello in favor of a plan to just give the ball to (insert name of "superstar" who gives half-assed effort) and let him operate. The rest of you just be ready to rebound. Discipline and effort be damned if you think a player is "good."

This is a gross hyperbole that has nothing to do with the topic, and on the court, Fesenko has been a team player and has been putting forth good effort. Not ideal effort, but good effort.

As I've related before, Sloan has told the story about how, one year, the players were all sayin they wanted less structure and more opportunity to freelance. Sloan said, if that's what you really want, that's what we'll do.

This is not particularly relevant to the Fesenko topic because I don't think that Fes ever indicated--in word or in deed--that he thought that the Jazz's offense or defense should be less structured.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Hopper, you keep using game performance ("freelancing") to justify using practice as a primary criterion for playing time. That's why practice is a less effective measure of in-game performance then, well, in-game performance.

 

[Hopper]

As I recall, Fess hardly played a lick for the russian team a year or two back and was basically thrown off the team, wasn't he? Sloan musta been coachin there too.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Well, which is it, S2? Now you can "develop" in overseas games? Can you also develop in college games, ya figure? Can you "develop" in high school games? Can you "develop" in practice and intrasquad games? I thought it was ONLY NBA games that permitted development and improvement, eh? Next thing I know, you'll be sayin it's possible to improve by spendin 4-5 hours in the gym all by your lonesome.

OK, I'll retract this argument for a stronger one that is more consistent with what I have been saying all along.

His FT% is only modestly up from where it was in two of the four preseasons that he's played in; in the other one, he shot only 6 FTs anyway. So your claim (if that is your claim) that he has vastly improved from last season to now is illusory, just like the claim that he has lost a lot of weight, when it really was only less than 10 pounds.

In other words, he's just continuing along the same trajectory that giving him experience would've provided anyway. Giving him more PT would've accelerated it. His FG% is 47%, which is on the low end of OK for a center and really diffuses any silly claim that he is freelancing in games--at least offensively. He might not know where he should be all the time, but he's not jacking up shots.

New post = new data, new evidence.

 

[chemdude1232]

I think what's going wrong here is that we are looking to assign blame solely on one person: Sloan for being an obstinate jackass and not developing Fes, or Fes for not putting forth the effort to earn his playing time.

InGame, really I hope you see that the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders as (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to indicate. And no, the blame is not entirely on Fes' shoulders either (in the sense that, hey, he's a body and could give us 5 solid - if foul-prone - minutes.

In my eyes, the truth is that the majority of "blame" rests on the issue that Fes is not doing what he knows will get him playing time, i.e., working his tail off. Again, I'll reiterate: if he knows that Sloan requires hard work (in practice) to merit playing time, there is surely some fault of his when he doesn't accede to Sloan's conditions.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I retract my retraction; the overseas league is only so-so in-game experience, but he does seem to feel more comfortable, and somewhere along the way he learned a couple of sweet spin moves. What he does seem have is a little more confidence in the system, which is more representative of experience than practice.

 

[Hopper]

The Big “Fess” Is A Big Mess

By Aron Phillips

Kyrylo Fesenko

Let’s be frank. Utah’s Kyrylo Fesenko (pronounced Kuh-rill Feh-sink-o) hasn’t done much in his first three years in the NBA. In fact, “Fess” has only played a total of 634 minutes and appeared in 79 games with career averages of 2.4 points and 1.9 rebounds per game. With training camp about to start, the restricted free agent has yet to sign a $1.1 million qualifying offer and is looking to ink at least a two-year deal. But all that could change very soon....

According to the Salt Lake Tribune’s Brian T. Smith, the Rockets and two other Western Conference teams have shown recent interest in Fesenko.... Personally, I doubt the Rockets would invest that type of money in such a project, but if they don’t want the Jazz to match the offer, they might have to spend a little extra dough."

The opinion of an outsider (from dimemag), eh?

I wonder if realizing that other teams didn't see him as being worth much did anything to motivate Fess.

 

[Hopper]

"August 27th, 2009 by Salt City Hoops
This summer has been a bust for Kyrylo Fesenko by almost any measure. It’s all been widely documented: Skipping the Jazz summer league to play with the Ukrainian National Team and then playing poorly and eventually having some kind of run-in with the coach that led to Fesenko leaving the team early. There were even rumors that the final straw was leaving the bench to take a smoke during a game."

All on account of Sloan, no doubt.

 

[Ben10]

ISG, Regardless of all your arguments (some of which are valid, some of which are completely your opinion) Fes did not earn time on the floor. Period. Any coach on any level well play a guy that has proven that he wants to play, practice, improve and is motevated over a player that might Potentially be a better player but doesn't put for the effort to be so.

And until this year both his coaches, and teammates have stated that Fes does not put forth the effort. See quotes from D-Will this year that say he is finally acting and performing like the professional that well earn him time. This from a teammate not Sloan. I am really excited to see Fes develop this year. And I think he well because he has finally decided to be serious about it. All of his lack of time before is on him for not being the professional/attitude that he needed to be. Because it is proven that Sloan has no problem playing that type of player.

 

[Hopper]

ISG, Regardless of all your arguments (some of which are valid, some of which are completely your opinion) Fes did not earn time on the floor. Period.

Ben, as much as I agree with you, I think you're missin S2's basic argument, which seems to be this; No one has to EARN anything. That whole concept of "earning" sumthin seems totally foreign to S2. For you to even suggest that Fess would need to do anything to "earn" playin time just proves that you are as stupid as Sloan. It is Sloan's obligation to GIVE Fess playin time, which will, of course, magically make him better regardless of his effort or motivation.

No one is worthy of NBA playin time when they come to the NBA because they have not yet played in any NBA games, which is the only way to become NBA worthy, caincha see? You could practice with an NBA team for 10 years and you would completely suck until you got your first minute on the NBA floor, at which time, look out! Superstardom, here we come.

 

[Hopper]

Fess spent the better part of one year in the D-league didn't he? To my recollection he did nothing to really stand out while there. Not near as much as Jazz players like Roger Powell and Morris Almond (both of whom were NBDL all-stars and perhaps even MVP's) who were both unceremoniously cut by the Jazz later without ever playin much.

Other lower or undrafted guys--most recently guys like Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews--played well at the pro level from the git-go, and Sloan gave them a lot of playin time, relatively speaking, in their first year. Sloan scoffs at the idea that "he" develops players. He repeatedly points out that it is the players themselves, not him, who do the work to improve themselves, assuming they do improve. Everyone does seem to agree that improvement requires effort, however. Other than S2, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the mere act of bein on an NBA floor during an actual game, in itself, makes a player better.

 

[go4jazz]

Not sure why I even bother.

Fess spent the better part of one year in the D-league didn't he? To my recollection he did nothing to really stand out while there. Not near as much as Jazz players like Roger Powell and Morris Almond (both of whom were NBDL all-stars and perhaps even MVP's) who were both unceremoniously cut by the Jazz later without ever playin much.

Next, other lower or undrafted guys--most recently guys like Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews--played well at the pro level from the git-go, and Sloan gave them a lot of playin time, relatively speaking, in their first year. Sloan scoffs at the idea that "he" develops players. He repeatedly points out that it is the players themselves, not him, who do the work to improve themselves, assuming they do improve. Everyone does seem to agree that improvement requires effort, however. Other than S2, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the mere act of bein on an NBA floor during an actual game, in itself, makes a player better.

"Named to D-League All-Star Team for 2007-08 season" The 08-09 season he barely had opportunity to distinguish himself because he played so few games, but seriously using the D-league to justify your arguments is pretty lame.

Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews = Maynor, Millsap and Matthews. Millsap didn't get significant playing time until a couple of years into his contract. Maynor and Matthews both ONLY got playing time because of injuries to Miles and D-Will. If not for that, no amount of hard work would have allowed them the opportunities they were afforded. Sloan's hand was forced. Much in the same way that Fes finally saw some significant playing time. Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

Let me say this for the record. I am thrilled that Fes started here in Utah. He and I are great friends and I've watched his progress from his first year until now and can say it has been a long steady upward trend. I am thrilled that Fes played for Sloan and for the Utah Jazz organization. He knows that it was the best thing for him as well. Had he gone to a party Miami team or somewhere else less disciplined he probably wouldn't be in the league. Do you hear what I am saying. Probably not because I've said the exact same thing before. I give credit to Sloan for much of his progress. I give credit to Sloan. Here...one more time...Sloan has helped in his development and his current position.

That said. You didn't watch a man bust hump, see success, be praised by his coach, hear the coach say things like "we are going to have to find him more minutes" only to see him benched for the next 10 games. Yeah, I know, I know making NBA money is supposed to make you immune from emotions and the desire to prove yourself on the world stage. Just shut up, grin and bear it and count your blessings that the pine you happen to be riding is some of the most expensive pine that people around the world wish they could occupy. I know the arguments and I saw the practical side of watching excitement gained from lots of extra effort and some good games slowly sucked out of him because the lip service paid to his progress was just that.

Finally, quit throwing crap out about that which you know nothing about. He was not kicked off a national team because of smoking, he left after a dispute with the coach (or a family matter if you believe his agent). Whatever the reason he left, who cares? You guys keep throwing summer camp out there as it were some amazing career building block. He gets far more practice and playing time with his national team over the course of 2 months than the 10 days of summer camp. Do you think it was coincidence he came back even lighter than he left? Dime magazine? really? For every backwater crap publication you can find just as many quotes from Sloan, D-Will or Carmelo that backup what IGS and I have been trying to say.

Whether you think or Sloan thought that he deserved playing time is all in the eye of the beholder. I'm just saying that you can't be terribly surprised that after building someone up after seeing steady consistent effort only to drop them on their head thereafter isn't terribly productive.

As I have said previously as well. Again, just for the record. Sloan has been much better with Fes this year. Was it because Fes showed up at 285 this year? Perhaps. Was it because he had a decent showing in the playoffs? Perhaps. Is it because he is in his 4th year and no longer a rook in Jerry's eyes. Maybe. All I know is I see a huge difference in his confidence and his desire to improve. It also doesn't suck that he now has Al and Elson battling him for a spot where only Memo and Kosta existed previously. Fes knows he has a long way to go. He doesn't pretend he is all that or that in the words of a point guard that he's "learned pretty much all there is to learn". He knows that and I know that and he pushes himself and I push him as well. Sometimes he frustrates the hell out of me but his forward progress remains forward.

Frankly I'm pretty much done posting here. Too many people on this board honestly hope for the destruction of different players. People talk and criticize while having only a very small part of the big picture. Kind of tired of it. Unfounded rumors and innuendo tossed around like fact. Posers who claim insider info only to be proven wrong and then scurrying like roaches into private forums. The same roaches who were happy to jeopardize a person's livelihood/business with said rumors that due to a confidentiality agreement with his employees should have never left the building. IGS I appreciate the defense of Fes and at the least for many of the other posters at least an open mind and a general desire to see Fes and others succeed. For the rest of you "haters" as the term may apply. Keep on hatin.

 

[Marty McFly]

Maynard? Really?

 

[InGameStrategy]

I think what's going wrong here is that we are looking to assign blame solely on one person: Sloan for being an obstinate jackass and not developing Fes, or Fes for not putting forth the effort to earn his playing time.

InGame, really I hope you see that the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders as (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to indicate. And no, the blame is not entirely on Fes' shoulders either (in the sense that, hey, he's a body and could give us 5 solid - if foul-prone - minutes.

Nope; I've written multiple times that if Fes had had enough sense to realize that all it takes to get PT from Sloan is to tow the party line. So no, the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders, assuming that Fes was really jackpotting around in practice as has been so widely reported (I"m not questioning that, too, although I do wonder about the magnitude of his mischief in practice that has caused it to be such a big deal).

In my eyes, the truth is that the majority of "blame" rests on the issue that Fes is not doing what he knows will get him playing time, i.e., working his tail off. Again, I'll reiterate: if he knows that Sloan requires hard work (in practice) to merit playing time, there is surely some fault of his when he doesn't accede to Sloan's conditions.

I place a large responsibility on Sloan also because it's the coach's job to get teams ready to play. In Fes's case, his jackpotting probably hurt his rate of progression, but the optimal strategy is not to DNP him for games on end. The optimal strategy is to tell him that he's getting 5 MPG or 10 MPG instead of 10 MPG or 15 MPG if he applied himself more. Sloan's spat with Kirilenko 5 or so years ago stemmed from Sloan not being clear with Kirilenko about his role. Just so the Sloan apologists to come slithering to his defense, Kirilenko bears some of the responsibility also. I guess that AK could've gone to Coach and said, "Coach, why have you reduced my minutes drastically for no reason, and why are people not passing the ball to me any more, and why have you not told me about it?", but that's tough for most 25-year-olds to bring themselves to do. A hall-of-fame coach should be an extremely effective communicator, and there is a pattern here that some JazzFanz deny. It's the same pattern of noncommunication when he lets Okur (and Boozer) stay in the game without any retribution for their matador defense. Okur wasn't usually scoring THAT much for it to be essential to be out there, and the theory behind benching Boozer for 5 minutes is that it'll be paid back in spades with better defense for the rest of the game. (And who knows; maybe his substitute will not display a dropoff from Booze anyway. In either case, a 5-minute benching anytime before the middle of Q4 isn't usually going to cost the Jazz the game.)

 

[InGameStrategy]

Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews = Maynor, Millsap and Matthews. Millsap didn't get significant playing time until a couple of years into his contract. Maynor and Matthews both ONLY got playing time because of injuries to Miles and D-Will. If not for that, no amount of hard work would have allowed them the opportunities they were afforded. Sloan's hand was forced. Much in the same way that Fes finally saw some significant playing time. Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

Further evidence that not only does Sloan not necessarily reward in-game performance with more minutes, he doesn't even reward practice performance with more minutes. Ask Kosta Koufos about that, too. And sadly, everybody suffers: the team suffers because it stunts the development a crucial piece (a backup center or better), and the player suffers. It'll be interesting to see if Koufos can recover from his vastly stunted development. He really stunk it up last year, and he probably isn't as gifted athletically as Fesenko anyway, but the downward spiral from mid-rookie season was really tragic. Not every player has an upward trajectory, but it's reasonable to point at his baseless banishment to the bench after Boozer came back as a destruction of his focus and morale. Unlike Al jefferson in a sub-.500 Boston team or Deron Williams on a point-guard-dependent pick-and-roll offense, players with less talent (but enough to be in the NBA within the right situation) need to be developed. The post by go4jazz has confirmed much of what I have been arguing: that Fesenko wasn't being given an opportunity consistent with his performance. What I didn't know is the extent to which the dissing has been going on, and this isn't the first time.

What is really hypocritical (or more likely, ignorant) is Sloan preaching playing time for performance and then not allocating that precious resource equitably. There was no need for Millsap to have 28 MPG last season; Utah's results could've been the same giving some of those to the bigs, and it would've reaped rewards. And then there was the doggy defense from the first 7 in the rotation, giving plenty of reason to insert Fes into the rotation.

 

[Hopper]

Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

It's not borin to me. Do you think workin with Horny or Harp helped him improve in any way, or it that all senseless because the only thing that can improve a player is game time?

He and I are great friends and I've watched his progress from his first year until now and can say it has been a long steady upward trend. I am thrilled that Fes played for Sloan and for the Utah Jazz organization. He knows that it was the best thing for him as well. Had he gone to a party Miami team or somewhere else less disciplined he probably wouldn't be in the league. Do you hear what I am saying. Probably not because I've said the exact same thing before. I give credit to Sloan for much of his progress. I give credit to Sloan. Here...one more time...Sloan has helped in his development and his current position.

I haven't been arguing otherwise, and, as far as I know, I haven't been arguing with you about anything except your claim that ONLY game time can improve a player.

For every backwater crap publication you can find just as many quotes from Sloan, D-Will or Carmelo that backup what IGS and I have been trying to say.

What is it, exactly, that you (and S2, as you perceive it) are tryin to say?

I see a huge difference in his confidence and his desire to improve. other posters at least an open mind and a general desire to see Fes and others succeed. For the rest of you "haters" as the term may apply. Keep on hatin.

Appreciate your frank post, go4. I don't know why you think I am "hatin" on Fess, unless maybe because you claim to be personally very close to him you are therefore primed to "defend" him even if he isn't being attacked. I like Fess, and am optimistic about his chances with the Jazz. If his confidence and desire to improve has greatly improved, that alone would explain a lot about why he's playin better and why his coach and teammates perceive him differently, wouldn't it? As I said a long while back, I have thought Fess's limitations were more mental than physical.

Fess himself says he lost 20-25 pounds this summer. He says it is because he "practiced" twice a day, every day, from June 26 to August 29 with the ukrainian national team (doesn't mention games at all--did they play any, or are they just preparing at this point?). He says the weight loss has helped him "a lot,'" and even says he would like to lose some more fat then gain back about 5 pounds of muscle. Being in good shape generally does wonders for confidence, and I don't see it as just coincidental if he is indeed more confident after practicing twice a day and losing 25 unnecessary pounds. This does undercut the claim, however, that only increased playing time can have a positive effect on his game and contribute to his improvement.

Fess says this year he has become more "professional" and more "adult." That's him, not me or dimemag sayin it. He says a pro must be consistent, and says that he isn't, but is trying to be. If he can admit to his lack of maturity in prior years and acknowledge his own inconsistency, why is it "hatin" for someone else to refer to it? Fess himself, Deron, Sloan, and others have all noted a difference in his "attitude" this year. It is not an increase in game-time that he, or anyone else, thinks is the major difference--and that's all this disagreement (between me, S2 and others) is really about.

Fess himself says he has "definitely" gotten more serious about the game and that he is workin on havin better mental focus this year. If true, and I assume it is, that bodes well for his future. But he himself is basically sayin he was at least somewhat lacking in those areas in prior years.

So what's this argument all about? Well, simply the claim that Sloan has prevented Fess from improving in the past and that the ONLY thing that could have happened for Fess to change for the better was to play in games, whether serious or not, focused or not, professional, or not. Fess himself seems to dispel such claims:

https://1320kfan.com/index.php/audio/listen/jazz_shootaround_kyrylo_fesenko_oct_14