Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[chemdude1232]

Nope; I've written multiple times that if Fes had had enough sense to realize that all it takes to get PT from Sloan is to tow the party line. So no, the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders, assuming that Fes was really jackpotting around in practice as has been so widely reported (I"m not questioning that, too, although I do wonder about the magnitude of his mischief in practice that has caused it to be such a big deal).

I place a large responsibility on Sloan also because it's the coach's job to get teams ready to play. In Fes's case, his jackpotting probably hurt his rate of progression, but the optimal strategy is not to DNP him for games on end. The optimal strategy is to tell him that he's getting 5 MPG or 10 MPG instead of 10 MPG or 15 MPG if he applied himself more. Sloan's spat with Kirilenko 5 or so years ago stemmed from Sloan not being clear with Kirilenko about his role. Just so the Sloan apologists to come slithering to his defense, Kirilenko bears some of the responsibility also. I guess that AK could've gone to Coach and said, "Coach, why have you reduced my minutes drastically for no reason, and why are people not passing the ball to me any more, and why have you not told me about it?", but that's tough for most 25-year-olds to bring themselves to do. A hall-of-fame coach should be an extremely effective communicator, and there is a pattern here that some JazzFanz deny. It's the same pattern of noncommunication when he lets Okur (and Boozer) stay in the game without any retribution for their matador defense. Okur wasn't usually scoring THAT much for it to be essential to be out there, and the theory behind benching Boozer for 5 minutes is that it'll be paid back in spades with better defense for the rest of the game. (And who knows; maybe his substitute will not display a dropoff from Booze anyway. In either case, a 5-minute benching anytime before the middle of Q4 isn't usually going to cost the Jazz the game.)

It's looking like our source of disagreement rests on perspective then. Coach vs. player, teacher vs. student, whatever you want to call it. I'll readily agree that, on the surface at least, Sloan's propensity to bench (i.e. DNP) Fes for games on end reeks of bitterness and the inability to "let go," as long as you'll agree (and it seems like you do agree) that a contributing factor is Fes' so-called jackpotting which, well-enough-known, is something that ticks off Sloan.

This raises a good question: why did none of the team mates act as intermediary with Sloan? Or at the very least, why did none of them help Fes figure out how to get on Sloan's good side? Doesn't this seem like there are some other things going on? Things that are known only to the team, and not outsiders?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think Fess is realizing he can get to the line a lot. With his size and mobility, he's tough to guard. The question is whether he'll hit a respectable percentage of his free throws. I'm sure he's working on it.

 

[go4jazz]

Never said that only game time was necessary for improvement. What I said is that without game time his upside/improvement is limited. Absolutely practice is necessary and once he is fufilling that part, he needs time in games. Kosta and Memo can only push you so far. Sparring partners only prepare you so much. Flight simulators only teach pre-defined scenarios. There is no substitute for real-life in-game experience.

 

[chemdude1232]

I don't mean this antagonistically, go4jazz, but rather as a point of curiosity: being Fes' friend, have you ever asked him why Sloan doesn't play him regardless of his ongoing tail-busting in practice?

 

[Inn Dawn]

Maynard? Really?

What about him? He had an awesome game last night, for a rookie.

 

[go4jazz]

Yes we have had long conversations about it. All I can say is the road out of the doghouse, especially the lower levels of said Jerry Sloan's doghouse is a long and winding road. A road fraught with non-issues that Jerry loves to find issue with. For example the blonde hair. A fairly minor issue if not a non-issue among any other team. Not so with Jerry. Sad thing was he had a haircut appt. the very day the Jazz saw the bad dye job. Gary Briggs called in him to work-out early with Kosta in the second week of September that year and in an effort to show he was "obedient" he obeyed and paid a stupid price for a bad haircut. I'm just glad that he is finally out of the doghouse or at least can see the light in the opening.

 

[Hopper]

"Named to D-League All-Star Team for 2007-08 season" The 08-09 season he barely had opportunity to distinguish himself because he played so few games...

Well, good for Fess, then. If I ever knew that, then I forgot about it.

 

[jazzmanian devil]

Maynard? Really?

Zed is dead baby, Zed is dead...

 

[One Brow]

P.S. It's disingenuous for you to claim, Hopper, that I'm not addressing your claims when I am dissecting them surgically.

Are your surgical skills better than your math skills? Not from what I can see.

His FT% is only modestly up from where it was in two of the four preseasons that he's played in; in the other one, he shot only 6 FTs anyway. So your claim (if that is your claim) that he has vastly improved from last season to now is illusory, just like the claim that he has lost a lot of weight, when it really was only less than 10 pounds.

Fesenko reported to camp weighing 280 pounds. This was widely reported, for example, https://www.deseretnews.com/article...is-leaner-meaner-and-fitter.html?s_cid=rss-38 lists this wieght. According to go4jazz, he left before the summer at 292.

292 - 280 > 10. Grab a calculator if you don't believe me.

This is the second time I've pointed out this error to you. I fully expect that, within another couple of days, you'll say again the wieght loss was under 10 pounds, because ultimately facts are irrelevant to you.

In other words, he's just continuing along the same trajectory that giving him experience would've provided anyway. Giving him more PT would've accelerated it.

You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences. Either his current trajectory is or is not what it would have been given experience.

New post = new data, new evidence.

See, for many of us, you don't start over with new data every post. You keep collecting data from post to post.

Never said that only game time was necessary for improvement. What I said is that without game time his upside/improvement is limited. Absolutely practice is necessary and once he is fufilling that part, he needs time in games. Kosta and Memo can only push you so far. Sparring partners only prepare you so much. Flight simulators only teach pre-defined scenarios. There is no substitute for real-life in-game experience.

I'm sure Hopper would agree with that. None of that means Fesenko was ready before this year.

 

[InGameStrategy]

It's looking like our source of disagreement rests on perspective then. Coach vs. player, teacher vs. student, whatever you want to call it. I'll readily agree that, on the surface at least, Sloan's propensity to bench (i.e. DNP) Fes for games on end reeks of bitterness and the inability to "let go," as long as you'll agree (and it seems like you do agree) that a contributing factor is Fes' so-called jackpotting which, well-enough-known, is something that ticks off Sloan.

This raises a good question: why did none of the team mates act as intermediary with Sloan? Or at the very least, why did none of them help Fes figure out how to get on Sloan's good side? Doesn't this seem like there are some other things going on? Things that are known only to the team, and not outsiders?

Thanks for a cogent, thoughtful post.
Ideally, players would act as an intermediary between player and coach—even though it isn’t their official job to do so (and even though I don’t think that they should have to). Also, players getting in the middle might well risk their own standing (or so they might imagine), especially with a hard-nosed coach like Jerry. I don’t think that the likes of Deron would be penalized for trying to boost communication between Sloan and players; maybe he does some of that anyway. But it would take a very exceptional communicator and/or leader to do that as a player. Deron is “only” in his mid-20’s, and it seems like he is doing some things well as a team leader, but there are probably few players in the NBA who are truly effective communicators, player developers, intragame generals, mediators, and motivators.
Besides, that’s the job description of a coach.
The young age of players (and Fes) is why I place greater responsibility on Sloan for remedying this problem. Placing it all on Fes is the easy way out, but a 60-year-old coach should have more sense, from his experience, the importance of good communication and equitable treatment. What is exciting about this year is that most—if not all—players seem to be bought into the system. There are no Giriceks, Arroyos, crying Kirilenkos, Osterboobs, or former Fesenkos. And there aren’t any Mark Jacksons or Boozers to stink up the place under the guise of veteranism. And they have a Raja Bell, who has already been filmed in games mentoring other players. And Deron is just one step closer to being the exceptional leader that I described above.
All of this is a formula for a very good year, and it is possible that the self-motivation and cohesion of the players—all the way from starters to scrubs—might at least partially compensate for any deficiency in player development, communication or on-court lineup combinations that Sloan might retain. While Utah still needs to figure out how to consistently handle Gasol / Bynum / Odom (and Bosh / LeBron and Garnett / Perkins in the east) and defend the likes of Kobe and Paul Pierce, this team is perhaps the deepest and most focused of any Jazz team in years (if not ever). I’ll give Sloan some credit for that.

 

[Hopper]

So your claim (if that is your claim) that he has vastly improved from last season to now is illusory, just like the claim that he has lost a lot of weight, when it really was only less than 10 pounds.

The exact number of pounds Fess lost isn't the point, but it never hurts to get the facts right rather than just assert things, willy-nilly, that you think sound good for the purpose of supporting your conclusions. Last year, announcers routinely described Fess as weighing over 300 pounds. He's now down to 280, he says. I don' put Fess on a scale every day, but he is certainly in a good position to know his own weight. He says that he lost 20-25 pounds, beginning on June 26, 2010, and I'm willin to take him at his word on that, even if you want to deny it, S2.

There was a time (and, with other teams, maybe that time is still here) when training camp was viewed as a method of getting in game shape by the time the season started. It is well known that Sloan never bought into that premise, and has always insisted that his players report to camp in top shape. To the extent they don't, he is displeased and he knows they are starting at a disadvantage which will take time to overcome. Memo, for one, has commented about this. He says he thought he was in good shape, coming in, his first year with the Jazz, but quickly found out that his idea of "good shape" was different from Sloan's. He also says he now reports to camp in top shape and that it helps him a lot.

For years AK was told at the end of the season that the team wanted him to work on adding some weight and strength in the offseason, but, until last year, he never seemed to do it. But once he did, the difference in his game was quite noticable. I haven't followed Fess's weight from year to year, but I will assume that, had he practiced twice a day, every day, for over two months the year before, and lost some fat, he would have been much better in the 09-10 season than he was.

Such things help demonstrate the degree of commitment and "seriousness" that the coaches and fans are lookin for. When Deron came back for his second year, Sloan said to him: "You've worked hard in the off-season, haven't you?" Deron: "Yes, sir." Sloan" "It shows."

End of convo, but Deron said he felt very good about it afterwards. And from that point forward, there was never any question about who the starting point guard would be.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Are your surgical skills better than your math skills? Not from what I can see.

Fesenko reported to camp weighing 280 pounds. This was widely reported, for example, https://www.deseretnews.com/article...is-leaner-meaner-and-fitter.html?s_cid=rss-38 lists this wieght. According to go4jazz, he left before the summer at 292.

292 - 280 > 10. Grab a calculator if you don't believe me.

This is the second time I've pointed out this error to you. I fully expect that, within another couple of days, you'll say again the wieght loss was under 10 pounds, because ultimately facts are irrelevant to you.

Hilarious! I’m sorry that I missed your petty correction before (other things to refute were probably more relevant IMHO), so I'll own up now to the math error (really a data error, given that I didn’t bothe to go check the number, and I thought that someone had posted <10 lbs. Oh and the difference is TWO POUNDS << rolleyes >>!). That's the key difference between you and me, given that your data error was far worse ("He came back having lost some 8% of his body wieight"), which would imply 8% * 300 = 24 pounds. (I even did the math for you, so that you don’t furrow your brow.) My 2 pounds error < your 12 pounds error. Look in the mirror.

You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences. Either his current trajectory is or is not what it would have been given experience.

I'm not seeing the contradiction here. There's a trajectory if he doesn’t get significant playing time (as in the past), and there’s a higher and/or faster trajectory if he does. That’s not Math 101; more akin to Physics 101. If I’m clarifying, fine.

See, for many of us, you don't start over with new data every post. You keep collecting data from post to post.

Your claim here would hold water if I didn’t add information and examples and reasoning to the redundancy that I feel obliged to repost for haters / knucklebrows such as yourself.

I'm sure Hopper would agree with that. None of that means Fesenko was ready before this year.

Except that even with his limited scoring, purported poor conditioning, and under-understanding of the offense, he did better on several occasions than Okur or Millsap was doing instead. It would’ve been interesting to see if the victory over Denver would’ve been as convincing if Okur had been there. I think that Utah probably would’ve won, but Mem-slow would’ve inevitably gotten a big chunk of the minutes, which would’ve likely resulted in poorer control over the paint on both ends of the floor. The value of Okur’s three-point shooting is further limited by the ability of many other Jazzmen to make outside shots and by Al Jefferson no instinctively camping in the paint like Boozer did to pad his stats. ( New analysis alert, by the way.)

 

[InGameStrategy]

The exact number of pounds Fess lost isn't the point, but it never hurts to get the facts right rather than just assert things, willy-nilly, that you think sound good for the purpose of supporting your conclusions. Last year, announcers routinely described Fess as weighing over 300 pounds. He's now down to 280, he says. I don' put Fess on a scale every day, but he is certainly in a good position to know his own weight. He says that he lost 20-25 pounds, beginning on June 26, 2010, and I'm willin to take him at his word on that, even if you want to deny it, S2.

Um, someone closer to the situation said 12 pounds. I'm sticking to that over your citationless spew.

There was a time (and, with other teams, maybe that time is still here) when training camp was viewed as a method of getting in game shape by the time the season started. It is well known that Sloan never bought into that premise, and has always insisted that his players report to camp in top shape. To the extent they don't, he is displeased and he knows they are starting at a disadvantage which will take time to overcome. Memo, for one, has commented about this. He says he thought he was in good shape, coming in, his first year with the Jazz, but quickly found out that his idea of "good shape" was different from Sloan's. He also says he now reports to camp in top shape and that it helps him a lot.

I agree that players should come into camp in game shape and not use camp to get into shape. That doesn’t mean that coming into camp out of shape should be used against the player for the entire year. If so, then Al Jefferson and Raja Bell and others who came into camp this year huffing and puffing should spend some penalty riding the pine. This is yet another reason why your obsession with using practice as the primary criterion for playing is flawed. In this case, people coming into practice out of shape hurts the team, but the impact is more weighted in most cases to the beginning of the year when people are out of shape. But Fes received DNPs throughout the entire season, even when he had been performing in practice and on the court. So really, your comment about coming into practice in shape is a point but not a significant one because it applies As I have said repeatedly, if Fes had only had enough sense (as a twentysomething foreigner, btw) to come into camp in game shape and to not goof off as much in practice, then there probably wouldn’t have been a problem. Similarly, though, if the coach (who has 20 years more experience by the way) had had enough sense to recognize the developmental damage of not playing a young backup center (two of them in fact) AT ALL in a large portion of the games, even in situations where the outcome of the game wasn’t likely in question (or when the existing rotation was sucking eggs), then there probably wouldn’t have been a problem either. (BTW, for the record, I am directly addressing your comments, so no more unwarranted claims that I’m not.)

For years AK was told at the end of the season that the team wanted him to work on adding some weight and strength in the offseason, but, until last year, he never seemed to do it. But once he did, the difference in his game was quite noticable. I haven't followed Fess's weight from year to year, but I will assume that, had he practiced twice a day, every day, for over two months the year before, and lost some fat, he would have been much better in the 09-10 season than he was.

Again, I’m not denying that Fes would be better off if he had come into camp in game shape in previous years. What is amusing is that you have now—in this very post—cited two players (both foreigners, btw) who have not come into camp into game shape, and I don’t see—at least not in the case of Memo—that they were really penalized for it. And I maintain the stance that if there is such a penalty in place, then it should be meted out equitably. What is NOT optimal is to play a player of need for less than 5 minutes per available game.

Such things help demonstrate the degree of commitment and "seriousness" that the coaches and fans are lookin for. When Deron came back for his second year, Sloan said to him: "You've worked hard in the off-season, haven't you?" Deron: "Yes, sir." Sloan" "It shows."

You know what I’m looking for? Results. On the court. Not what players do off the court. That’s entertainment maybe. You’re falling back into the trap of using a lesser measure for evaluate who should be on the court. And again, for the third time (in this post alone), I agree that Fesenko (and every other NBA player, including the ones you cited) would usually be better off by working hard in the off-season. But the fact that Fes came into last season without much summer progress does not explain why he didn’t play during the middle of the season when his skills and conditioning had improved but his on-court experience (as shown by unnecessary fouls and turnovers) had not. And you also fail to explain why Fesenko should be penalized so harshly when other players were not.

 

[Hopper]

...even with his limited scoring, purported poor conditioning, and under-understanding of the offense, he did better on several occasions than Okur or Millsap was doing instead.

Heh, S2, a couple of comments:

1. You repeatedly make such assertions as though they were indisputable fact. To you they are, or course. Any assertion you make is true beyond question in your mind. Still, you sayin it don't make it true.

2. Even your own claim is limited by the qualifying phrase "on several occasions." Sloan has complained about (and Fess himself has acknowledged) Fess's lack of consistency. Assuming and asserting (which I don't) that Fess outplayed the Paperboy and Memo on "several occasions" is cherry-pickin at it's best. How about all the other times when he didn't? They just don't count, that it? Sloan, like all coaches, is lookin for sumthin dependable, not sumthin unpredictable, that may or may not materialize.

3. In what (limited) sense are you even trying to claim that Fess was superior "on several occasions?" Cloggin up the lane? I'll give you that. Anything else? Spreadin the floor and opening up things for his teammates? Knowing and executing the plays correctly and predictably (also helping his teammates)? Makin a three point shot now and again? Pullin in 20+ rebounds, as Millsap sometimes did? Fightin tooth and nail, like the Paperboy? My own damn self, I don't say one player in "outplaying" another simply because he might be better in 1 of 10 relevant categories.

 

[go4jazz]

This weight thing is ridiculous

The exact number of pounds Fess lost isn't the point, but it never hurts to get the facts right rather than just assert things, willy-nilly, that you think sound good for the purpose of supporting your conclusions. Last year, announcers routinely described Fess as weighing over 300 pounds. He's now down to 280, he says. I don' put Fess on a scale every day, but he is certainly in a good position to know his own weight. He says that he lost 20-25 pounds, beginning on June 26, 2010, and I'm willin to take him at his word on that, even if you want to deny it, S2.

There was a time (and, with other teams, maybe that time is still here) when training camp was viewed as a method of getting in game shape by the time the season started. It is well known that Sloan never bought into that premise, and has always insisted that his players report to camp in top shape. To the extent they don't, he is displeased and he knows they are starting at a disadvantage which will take time to overcome. Memo, for one, has commented about this. He says he thought he was in good shape, coming in, his first year with the Jazz, but quickly found out that his idea of "good shape" was different from Sloan's. He also says he now reports to camp in top shape and that it helps him a lot.

For years AK was told at the end of the season that the team wanted him to work on adding some weight and strength in the offseason, but, until last year, he never seemed to do it. But once he did, the difference in his game was quite noticable. I haven't followed Fess's weight from year to year, but I will assume that, had he practiced twice a day, every day, for over two months the year before, and lost some fat, he would have been much better in the 09-10 season than he was.

Such things help demonstrate the degree of commitment and "seriousness" that the coaches and fans are lookin for. When Deron came back for his second year, Sloan said to him: "You've worked hard in the off-season, haven't you?" Deron: "Yes, sir." Sloan" "It shows."

End of convo, but Deron said he felt very good about it afterwards. And from that point forward, there was never any question about who the starting point guard would be.

When he came back from Ukraine he was 285. His official Utah Jazz weigh-in was 283. His weight can vary 3-5 pounds before/after practice, time of day etc. My point has been that he came back from Ukraine at 285 and left to goto Ukraine at 292. A mere 7 pounds. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[One Brow]

Hilarious! I’m sorry that I missed your petty correction before (other things to refute were probably more relevant IMHO), so I'll own up now to the math error (really a data error, given that I didn’t bothe to go check the number, and I thought that someone had posted <10 lbs. Oh and the difference is TWO POUNDS << rolleyes >>!). That's the key difference between you and me, given that your data error was far worse ("He came back having lost some 8% of his body wieight"), which would imply 8% * 300 = 24 pounds. (I even did the math for you, so that you don’t furrow your brow.) My 2 pounds error < your 12 pounds error. Look in the mirror.

No problem with my mirror. Most of the reports say Fesenko went from 305 pounds to 280 pounds (including the article I just quoted) to 280, so by that information 8% was a downward esitmate.

Of course, maybe I made that error when discussing the 292 lb figure offered by go4jazz. Then you could at least patially justify your crowing. You can check this post, if you like. You can see it has not been edited. I will also include a quote for you.

12 lbs. Assuming he has no additional muscle right now (which make this number smaller than if he had increased his muscle mass), that's over 4% of his wieght in body fat. If his body fat percentage decrease from, say 14% at 292 to 10% at 280, isn't that a big improvement?

Again, the 4% is a downward estimate. Of course, as you noted, you "didn't bothe to go check the number", so your profound misapprehension on the subject is not really a surprise. How sad and typical it is that, even when you want to catch a poster with a different opinion in a mistake, you utterly fail to show the basic reasearch and understanding involved which would be needed to find the mistake, if it existed. Your surgical skill is such that, had I appendicitis, I would prefer a random strangeron the street to operate over you.

I'm not seeing the contradiction here. There's a trajectory if he doesn’t get significant playing time (as in the past), and there’s a higher and/or faster trajectory if he does. That’s not Math 101; more akin to Physics 101. If I’m clarifying, fine.

I accept this as a clarification that the statement "In other words, he's just continuing along the same trajectory that giving him experience would've provided anyway." was not really what you meant to say. It did seem contradictory to your main thesis.

Your claim here would hold water if I didn’t add information and examples and reasoning to the redundancy that I feel obliged to repost for haters / knucklebrows such as yourself.

Outside of petty insults, I fail to see much new in this thread. Where is any number that can reliably compare differential free-throw shooting amongst players who have and have not seen playing time. That would be an solid test of your claims. In fact, where is a single number that can compare the difference between similar players (in terms of willingness to improve, talent, etc.) when one gets regular NBA minutes and the other does not as a rookie? Data has been completely lacking from your argument.

Except that even with his limited scoring, purported poor conditioning, and under-understanding of the offense, he did better on several occasions than Okur or Millsap was doing instead.

According to you. I saw flashes of talent combined with a general lack of skill, development, and focus.

It would’ve been interesting to see if the victory over Denver would’ve been as convincing if Okur had been there.

Meaningless speculation is not new data, and is so irrelevant that it does not deserve a detailed disagreement.

 

[Hopper]

Um, someone closer to the situation said 12 pounds. I'm sticking to that over your citationless spew.

Exactly what I expected. The full citation has already been given, and the source is Fess himself. Who is "closer" to his situation than that?

But go right on ahead witcho bad self, S2, and keep on makin them assertiions and insisting on believing whatever suits you. Aint nuthin new.

 

[Hopper]

When he came back from Ukraine he was 285. His official Utah Jazz weigh-in was 283. His weight can vary 3-5 pounds before/after practice, time of day etc. My point has been that he came back from Ukraine at 285 and left to goto Ukraine at 292. A mere 7 pounds. Hope that clears it up for you.

Well, I'm afraid it doesn't clear anything up, go4. How much did Fess weight on June 26, 2010? HE says he lost 20-25 pounds over the next two months, beginning Why don't ask him if he's just lyin?

 

[chemdude1232]

Guys, this weight topic is becoming petty. I mean, Fes can probably lose 5 lbs. merely from going #2. Suffice it to say that he ended last season weighing more than he came back at. Whether it's 5 or 7 or 12 or 20 lbs is nearing the threshold of meaninglessness on the scale of someone who is 285ish. One bad weekend could propel him back to 295. One good weekend could "shrink" him to 275. That sort of thing.

Let's move on.

 

[Hopper]

Guys, this weight topic is becoming petty. Let's move on.

Chem, like I done said, the exact number of pounds aint even the point. The insistence on asserting, and adhering to, "facts" which Fess himself disputes does raise more relevant issues though, I figure.