Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[Jazz Spazz]

Having been accused in the past of being a Fes "hater", I'm going to chime in.

I don't hate Fes. As a matter of fact, I like him. I would love to see him live up to the hopes and expectations that the coaches and executives have for him. I would love to see him perform at the level that S2M and others apparently think he has already achieved. Mostly, I would like to see him step out on the court and not be a joke. I want to see him not be a walking "NBA Bloopers" video. I want to see him reach the point that when he gets the ball, I'm not holding my breath. It took Ostertag a couple of years to get there. Much of getting there is knowing what he is supposed to do. I don't want to see Deron or any other player show frustration as they point to where he's supposed to be. I do want to see his confidence continue to grow. In the half that I saw at ESA, his two drives to the basket and his elbow jumpshot were beautiful. Yeah, he got rimchecked on one of the drives, but it was still almost breathtaking in the ease he got to the basket.

Part of my frustration is reading the fanboys' assessment of Fesenko like he has actually made a difference when he's played. When I read some of the observations from the playoffs last year, I can't help but wonder that if it was Jarron Collins playing and he had done everything exactly as Fes had done it, would S2M or the other apologists have been so quick to stand up for him? I don't think so. Fes had his moments in the playoffs, but for the most part he was awful. I hope I change my tune. We'll see.

Fes Hater!

Really though, you are just like most people here even if they have a hard time stating it. We want to win, and we hope Fes ( or anyone else for that matter), can help us win.

By the way, Fes has made a difference in preseason (=no difference), and is good for certain matchups. Do other players on the team make more of a difference? Absolutely.

We will have 7-8 players that get decent minutes, and 2 more that will get small amounts of minutes.
Does Fes make enough of a difference to get 20 minutes a game? 30 minutes a game? Can he even stay on the court that long with ony 6 fouls to give? He seems more focused this year, so my opinion is that if he keeps it up he should be good enough to earn 15 minutes a game on average. I dont think he is good enough to stay out of foul trouble, and I'm not sure he would have the stamina to be on the floor 30 minutes anyways. He can make a difference, but I dont think he has yet. Even if you try to make the argument that he's made a difference in pre-season games, they dont count because lineups are not set, and regular season games flow differently..... aside from the fact that preseason doesnt count so any difference he may or may not have made is void.

 

[Hopper]

Look you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that Fes didn't get playing time because he didn't do summer league and yet that is why he lost weight this summer and is suddenly awesome.

Sure you can say that (for last year). Last year he skipped summer league to play with the Urkranian team, but, according to the reports, by the time he got kicked off he wasn't playin at all. It seems he played minimal minutes prior to that, too. Whether that was because of bad conditioning, a poor skill level, or just simple vindictiveness from a coach who hated him for no reason, one simple fact remains: He came into camp a year ago 25 pounds heavier than he did this year. That is a significant difference.

From the sounds of it, Fess simply practiced with the Ukranian team (no games mentioned) twice a day, every day, for over two months this year. Whatever S2 claims, I say you can't practice twice a day for months without improving unless you're absolutely hopeless to begin with. Fess says he is more confident this year, and it's easy to guess why. "Practice makes perfect," as they say, and superior physical conditioning will always translate into superior results.

You can't say that he deserves playing time only now because he lost a few extra pounds over last season.

Sure you can say that. For the majority of last season, what he weighed AT THE END of the season, after participating in two gruellin playoff series, is irrelevant. Again the difference at THE START of training camp is 25 pounds from last year to this year. That is a major difference, and Fess himself acknowledges the benefits.

 

[NCJazz]

Huh? Yes, he actually played in the games as well this summer with the Ukraine. Had pretty decent games for the most part. It was part of the European Qualifying Tournament.

Sure you can say that (for last year). Last year he skipped summer league to play with the Urkranian team, but, according to the reports, by the time he got kicked off he wasn't playin at all. It seems he played minimal minutes prior to that, too. Whether that was because of bad conditioning, a poor skill level, or just simple vindictiveness from a coach who hated him for no reason, one simple fact remains: He came into camp a year ago 25 pounds heavier than he did this year. That is a significant difference.

From the sounds of it, Fess simply practiced with the Ukranian team (no games mentioned) twice a day, every day, for over two months this year. Whatever S2 claims, I say you can't practice twice a day for months without improving unless you're absolutely hopeless to begin with. Fess says he is more confident this year, and it's easy to guess why. "Practice makes perfect," as they say, and superior physical conditioning will always translate into superior results.



Sure you can say that. For the majority of last season, what he weighed AT THE END of the season, after participating in two gruellin playoff series, is irrelevant. Again the difference at THE START of training camp is 25 pounds from last year to this year. That is a major difference, and Fess himself acknowledges the benefits.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Huh? Yes, he actually played in the games as well this summer with the Ukraine. Had pretty decent games for the most part. It was part of the European Qualifying Tournament.

For the most part? He didn't play at least one game I believe. He had at least one or two awful games. I think you're remembering his one spectacular game...against guys who aren't even in the NBA.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...ame-in-quot-European-Summer-League-quot/page2

 

[Hopper]

Part of my frustration is reading the fanboys' assessment of Fesenko like he has actually made a difference when he's played...if it was Jarron Collins playing and he had done everything exactly as Fes had done it, would S2M or the other apologists have been so quick to stand up for him? I don't think so..

Yeah, if you dispute the hyperbolic claims of the fanboyz, yo a hater, sho nuff, Blood.

Kinda funny how radically different the views of the fanboyz can be from those who are disinterested (like ESPN, as quoted by Rusty):

"Fesenko hardly played in the regular season but started nine playoff games after Okur went down. He was unspeakably awful..." lhttps://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playe...?playerId=3205

 

[Hopper]

For the record, I think the "unspeakably awful" characterization is itself a little hyperbolic for the playoffs as a whole, but might approach objectivity where the LA series is concerned. Even then it a little over the top, but leave us face it: Fess did NOT have a good series against the Lakers.

 

[InGameStrategy]

It's very nice of you to acknowledge that Williams did indeed develp without the playing time at PG, just as Sloan felt he should. Since then, Williams has acknowledged that, as much as he disliked how his minutes were handled, the experience was beneficial for him.

This is classic misreading; let me requote a portion of the segment that you were replying to: "Such a strategy didn't work for Deron in his rookie season (he blossomed despite the temporary setback, and it was only over starting vs. backup, not time vs. NO TIME) . . . ." I thought that it would be simple for your solitary brow to see that "time vs. NO TIME" means that Deron did get playing time. DW averaged almost 30 minutes per game in his first season, and he started 47 of them, and he had almost 4 times as many minutes as Fesenko had in his first three years, so lack of playing time (or lack of starting during the first half of the season) was not a significant factor in hindering Deron's development; he ended up averaging near-starter minutes even when he played part of the season as a backup.

I don't know how well-informed go4jazz is on this. Maybe he can give us another comparison, on Fesenko's weight in June 2009 vs. June 2010 (they are probably not that different). Most players seem to gain wieght over the summer, even if only a few pounds. So, to say Fesenko only lost a few pounds is still to highlight the excellent job he did on his conditioning this summer, contrasted with what he did not do previous summers.

Yes, he improved his conditioning over this summer, the extent to which is unclear (given that agility or even conditioning wasn't being tested in his sub-5-minutes-per-available-game average last season).

That said, even 9 pounds (assuming go4jaz's numbers are more accurate than the ones from Fesenko or the media, that what it would have been) means just over 3% bodyfat (again, assuming there is not added muscle mass, which with all the conditioning, you would expect). Reucing your bodyfat from 15% to 12%, or from 12% to 9%, makes a difference. You ever walked around all day with 5-pound weights strapped to your ankles?

Again, I'm not denying that he's in better shape this year. I am denying that Fesenko was given enough minutes last year (1) that is consistent with a player who has had rookie minutes and whose performance was more reflective of a player lacking experience (high turnovers, high fouls, not being in the right place all the time) than the less relevant factor of conditioning, given that he was getting beaten less often than Okur due to speed or conditioning (and Boozer due to lack of interest in defense). And on top of all that, he still had a positive +/- for the year when he was on the court.

 

[NCJazz]

For the most part? He didn't play at least one game I believe. He had at least one or two awful games. I think you're remembering his one spectacular game...against guys who aren't even in the NBA.

I did say for the most part (exactly). The one game the other team apparently went small. Also you are probably mainly judging his performance based on points scored. Not how you judge Fes. The main thing is the other poster apparently did not think he played at all.

 

[Hopper]

The main thing is the other poster apparently did not think he played at all.

I really didn't know and had asked if they played any games in an earlier post, but got no response. I don't follow the candyass Euro leagues. I was just goin on the implications of Fess's own statements. He said they practiced twice a day "every" day from June 25 to August 29. You presumably wouldn't practice twice on a day when you also had a game, so.....

 

[NCJazz]

I really didn't know and had asked if they played any games in an earlier post, but got no response. I don't follow the candyass Euro leagues. I was just goin on the implications of Fess's own statements. He said they practiced twice a day "every" day from June 25 to August 29. You presumably wouldn't practice twice on a day when you also had a game, so.....

No problem Hopper. You know there has been some pretty good players come out of Europe. When teams scout properly than can end up with a Nowitski or a Gasol. Granted if they scout badly they take a Darko #2.

 

[Hopper]

A little resume from last season, just to remind yawl, eh?:

[March 20, 2010]

Road stumble costly for the Jazz: Thunder, Suns now just one game back for fourth spot in the West.

"Sloan opened the second half with Kyrylo Fesenko in for Okur, then gave Fesenko an earful when he came out after picking up three fouls. Moments later, Sloan got up and confronted Fesenko at the end of the bench, saying afterward that Fesenko had thrown a towel."

That really aint the best part of the tale, though, The main take-home message is that Sloan, he ROCKS, eh!?

"Arguing with referee Michael Smith along the sideline, Sloan shoved Smith in the chest with his forearm and was ejected for the first time this season. Sloan previously was suspended seven games for shoving referee Courtney Kirkland in a January 2003 game... Before he shoved Smith, Sloan had to be blocked by arena security guards from approaching the referee crew of Smith, Dick Bavetta and Phil Robinson as they conducted their video review at the scorer's table. It is NBA policy for arena security to position themselves between the benches and the referees during reviews. Sloan made contact and backed up one guard before two others arrived to help restrain him. Once the review was over, Sloan took things up with Smith...

"I'm not going to lie to them," Sloan said. "Whatever penalties they have, I'm not going to run and hide from it or beg for somebody to . . . .I've been there before. It's not my first rodeo."

https://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2010/03/20/4682971.htm

 

[Scat]

By these numbers, Fesenko had 263 lbs of non-fat body mass (muscle, bone, organs, etc.) in Sept. 2009 but only 253 lbs in Sept. 2010. You basically have him losing 10 pounds of muscle. Something is not adding up.

First and foremost, it's almost impossible to lose fat without losing some muscle as well. Without the assistance of steroids it is impossible.

Looking at these numbers Fes lost 25 lb's total, 10 of which were muscle. That still leaves 15 lbs of fat that he lost as well. That's not a shabby trade off as he now can jump higher & move faster because he has a better muscle to fat ratio. He quite literally has less weight to move around and more muscle ratio wise than before.

Look at it this way. If you take a car that has 500 hp and replace all the metal body cladding with fiberglass reducing the overall weight by 25% and then replace the engine with a 450 hp engine it is going to be faster than the original car even with the smaller engine. There is simply less weight to move. The power to weight ratio has been improved.

Ever wonder why offensive linemen in the NFL are some of the fattest players yet are also some of the strongest players on the field? If you're active it literally takes more muscle to help move that fat around. That's why lard *** linemen can be so strong. Yeah, they are fat asses but they are active fat asses that work out and get exercise. Their bodies quite simply need more muscle to move all that fat around. Now if these same linemen sat around, quit being active and quit working out they would likely lose weight yet their total body fat by weight would stay the same. The weight loss would be due to a loss of muscle mass due to inactivity. Even though they lost weight their body fat % would skyrocket.

 

[Hopper]

First and foremost, it's almost impossible to lose fat without losing some muscle as well. Without the assistance of steroids it is impossible.

Maybe, Marcus, but how much muscle?

"Muscle loss during weight loss can be restricted by regularly lifting weights (or doing push-ups and other strength-oriented calisthenics) and by maintaining sufficient protein intake.... If the diet plan includes a daily caloric intake greater than the BMR, the person will most likely lose fat. On the contrary, if the person follows a diet that includes a lower caloric intake than the BMR, this person will lose fat but also a higher percentage of muscle....Maintaining muscle mass while losing fat is therefore a key factor to reach both the ideal weight and body composition. To achieve this goal, experts advise not to reduce carbohydrates aggressively...This reduced calorie intake, even in the presence of 100% carbohydrate consumption, allows for reduction of fat without muscle loss because the glycogen in the muscle is properly replenished.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieting

 

[Scat]

Maybe, Marcus, but how much muscle?

"Muscle loss during weight loss can be restricted by regularly lifting weights (or doing push-ups and other strength-oriented calisthenics) and by maintaining sufficient protein intake.... If the diet plan includes a daily caloric intake greater than the BMR, the person will most likely lose fat. On the contrary, if the person follows a diet that includes a lower caloric intake than the BMR, this person will lose fat but also a higher percentage of muscle....Maintaining muscle mass while losing fat is therefore a key factor to reach both the ideal weight and body composition. To achieve this goal, experts advise not to reduce carbohydrates aggressively...This reduced calorie intake, even in the presence of 100% carbohydrate consumption, allows for reduction of fat without muscle loss because the glycogen in the muscle is properly replenished.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieting

Define ideal?

The dude has just over 10% body fat. Whatever he's doing is working well. Very well. I bet that less than half a dozen people on this site have 10% body fat.

By following some strict nutritional guidelines and working out strenuously with weights Fes might be able to recoup those 10 lbs. of muscle but that's getting into sub 10% fat territory which is very difficult to maintain when you are running up and down a basketball court burning calories by the hundreds. Unless your a genetic freak like Malone or Stockton, Fes maintaining a weight of 283 at 10% fat would make me thrilled. At this point I like what I'm seeing out of Fes.

 

[Hopper]

. Whatever he's doing is working well. Very well.

Well, Marcus, how well Fess is doin wasn't really the question, but I agree that he's doin well.

Here's sumthin else I spect we completely agree on, eh?: Sloan, he ROCKS!

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Glad to see IGS is still beating a dead horse.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Glad to see IGS is still beating a dead horse.

I agree that this conversation has been dragged out a long time. Your case of singling out a single poster would carry much more water if it weren't true that most--if not all--of my posts are the response to other people's posts. But you're a hater, so you simply mention me.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I agree that this conversation has been dragged out a long time. Your case of singling out a single poster would carry much more water if it weren't true that most--if not all--of my posts are the response to other people's posts. But you're a hater, so you simply mention me.

Right. That must be it. I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to be honest with me.

Are you write4u?

 

[InGameStrategy]

Right. That must be it. I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to be honest with me.

Are you write4u?

No. I even took a number out of my screen name.