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We signed Emmanuel Mudiay

infection said:
There are maybe 1-2 people here who hate Exum. The rest of us would rather move on, which people view the same as hating, I guess. It's not Exum himself. It's that with the current dynamics he represents an opportunity cost and we're continuing down this path because of a sunk cost fallacy.

Look, I wasn't huge on the Exum draft. I saw him as someone who was quick and athletic but didn't seem to have specific skill, which JFC gets really excited about any time they see it (Saer Sene, Jeremy Evans, etc.). Despite that, I have no beef with the pick, and it was the obvious pick. When we moved back from 3 to 5 our destiny was sealed. It was looking like we'd get Aaron Gordon, who I also wasn't excited about but whatever. It is what it is. Then Orlando took Gordon and Exum was the obvious choice. Not exactly the way we saw all our tanking efforts ending. We closed his rookie season strong and he started and played good D, so I was hopeful. Then he was injured. Then he came back and wasn't getting burn. We passed on picking up DWill off waivers to "clear the path" for Exum, then he was being benched for Mack, who sucked, and I disagreed with that. If we were going to pass on DWill to give Exum burn, don't play Mack. He would have occasional flashes where he'd drive the lane, but this was few and far between. He didn't get burn (I think we should have given more burn to prevent us from being in this exact situation we're in), and he kept being injured. Obviously that's not his fault. He's shown some flashes of really good D on very limited sample sizes in the playoffs against Harden. People are knocking guys like Caruso for getting hyped by their limited sample size while at the same time rationalizing continued sunk cost when Exum's highs seriously have similar sample sizes.

The truth is, IDGAF about Mudiay. Very meh signing for me. But I think there's a very important lesson to be had here. Mudiay was a #7 pick. He had a lot of hype. He averaged 12 ppg as a rookie and 11 ppg as a sophomore. Despite that, Denver traded him for Devin Harris and a second round pick. He averaged 15 ppg last year. Despite that, NYK didn't look at him and say "he was drafted 7th and he's still got untapped potential." No. They let him walk. Nobody around the league is looking at him and seeing #7 pick and potential after four seasons. Literally nobody. He just got a minimum contract. That's where his value is. Does this sound familiar? The Jazz are taking a very different approach with Exum when NBA history is riddled with these cases. Because of a familiarity bias we are prone to overvalue Exum far above and beyond what anybody else would. We certainly don't overvalue the Exum of other teams because we don't have that same familiarity. If Exum were waived today, what's his market? Nobody here is clamoring for Elfrid Payton or even Mudiay, yet those are two guys who have done more than Exum has thus far and are very similar players.

Jabari Parker was drafted second the same year Exum was drafted. He's also had unfortunate injuries that have limited his career. He's a former 20 ppg scorer. For as good as Exum is on defense, Jabari is as good on offense, and for as bad as Jabari is on defense, Exum is as bad on offense. Despite investing a #2 draft pick in him, Milwaukee let him sign elsewhere. The Wizards aren't factoring in that he's a former #2 pick when they're going to let him sign elsewhere. How much money is he going to get in free agency this year? My guess is that it nowhere approximates $20M over two years.

So, really, I have two questions:

1) Is it irrational for people to consider this an opportunity cost and want to move on at this point?

2) If people are wanting to move on, does that equate to hate?
Click to expand...
I don’t have the patience (or likely the ability) to write it out this way. Thank you. Ded on.
 
infection said:
There are maybe 1-2 people here who hate Exum. The rest of us would rather move on, which people view the same as hating, I guess. It's not Exum himself. It's that with the current dynamics he represents an opportunity cost and we're continuing down this path because of a sunk cost fallacy.

Look, I wasn't huge on the Exum draft. I saw him as someone who was quick and athletic but didn't seem to have specific skill, which JFC gets really excited about any time they see it (Saer Sene, Jeremy Evans, etc.). Despite that, I have no beef with the pick, and it was the obvious pick. When we moved back from 3 to 5 our destiny was sealed. It was looking like we'd get Aaron Gordon, who I also wasn't excited about but whatever. It is what it is. Then Orlando took Gordon and Exum was the obvious choice. Not exactly the way we saw all our tanking efforts ending. We closed his rookie season strong and he started and played good D, so I was hopeful. Then he was injured. Then he came back and wasn't getting burn. We passed on picking up DWill off waivers to "clear the path" for Exum, then he was being benched for Mack, who sucked, and I disagreed with that. If we were going to pass on DWill to give Exum burn, don't play Mack. He would have occasional flashes where he'd drive the lane, but this was few and far between. He didn't get burn (I think we should have given more burn to prevent us from being in this exact situation we're in), and he kept being injured. Obviously that's not his fault. He's shown some flashes of really good D on very limited sample sizes in the playoffs against Harden. People are knocking guys like Caruso for getting hyped by their limited sample size while at the same time rationalizing continued sunk cost when Exum's highs seriously have similar sample sizes.

The truth is, IDGAF about Mudiay. Very meh signing for me. But I think there's a very important lesson to be had here. Mudiay was a #7 pick. He had a lot of hype. He averaged 12 ppg as a rookie and 11 ppg as a sophomore. Despite that, Denver traded him for Devin Harris and a second round pick. He averaged 15 ppg last year. Despite that, NYK didn't look at him and say "he was drafted 7th and he's still got untapped potential." No. They let him walk. Nobody around the league is looking at him and seeing #7 pick and potential after four seasons. Literally nobody. He just got a minimum contract. That's where his value is. Does this sound familiar? The Jazz are taking a very different approach with Exum when NBA history is riddled with these cases. Because of a familiarity bias we are prone to overvalue Exum far above and beyond what anybody else would. We certainly don't overvalue the Exum of other teams because we don't have that same familiarity. If Exum were waived today, what's his market? Nobody here is clamoring for Elfrid Payton or even Mudiay, yet those are two guys who have done more than Exum has thus far and are very similar players.

Jabari Parker was drafted second the same year Exum was drafted. He's also had unfortunate injuries that have limited his career. He's a former 20 ppg scorer. For as good as Exum is on defense, Jabari is as good on offense, and for as bad as Jabari is on defense, Exum is as bad on offense. Despite investing a #2 draft pick in him, Milwaukee let him sign elsewhere. The Wizards aren't factoring in that he's a former #2 pick when they're going to let him sign elsewhere. How much money is he going to get in free agency this year? My guess is that it nowhere approximates $20M over two years.

So, really, I have two questions:

1) Is it irrational for people to consider this an opportunity cost and want to move on at this point?

2) If people are wanting to move on, does that equate to hate?
Click to expand...

Excellent points. Very well thought out.

It comes down to whether people believe that Exum has shown us everything that he is capable of showing. No one can dispute that injuries have hurt his results as well as his development. This is not an excuse ... just reality.

I completely understand that people are just "done" with him at this point. I'm pretty close myself.

My reasoning for not just trading him for picks are:

1) There's a huge upside if he can develop at least into a solid backup and obviously more if his deficiencies are really a product of his development and that he still has starting potential.
2) He's not getting paid that much. It's not nothing, but it's still pretty low.
3) His salary has not prevented the team from signing anyone that we wanted. (This could change, but so far it hasn't been a factor.)
4) The team would understandably like to see Exum play out a better part of a season. They can't wait forever obviously, but it would be ideal to at least be reasonably certain of what they are trading away.

If he gets injured again or does not get appreciably better this year, I see no reason to continue this project.
 
Locke gave some history/insight into Mudiay in the later part of his podcast today. I came away thinking that development work with our coaches may actually help turn him into something.
 
infection said:
There are maybe 1-2 people here who hate Exum. The rest of us would rather move on, which people view the same as hating, I guess. It's not Exum himself. It's that with the current dynamics he represents an opportunity cost and we're continuing down this path because of a sunk cost fallacy.

Look, I wasn't huge on the Exum draft. I saw him as someone who was quick and athletic but didn't seem to have specific skill, which JFC gets really excited about any time they see it (Saer Sene, Jeremy Evans, etc.). Despite that, I have no beef with the pick, and it was the obvious pick. When we moved back from 3 to 5 our destiny was sealed. It was looking like we'd get Aaron Gordon, who I also wasn't excited about but whatever. It is what it is. Then Orlando took Gordon and Exum was the obvious choice. Not exactly the way we saw all our tanking efforts ending. We closed his rookie season strong and he started and played good D, so I was hopeful. Then he was injured. Then he came back and wasn't getting burn. We passed on picking up DWill off waivers to "clear the path" for Exum, then he was being benched for Mack, who sucked, and I disagreed with that. If we were going to pass on DWill to give Exum burn, don't play Mack. He would have occasional flashes where he'd drive the lane, but this was few and far between. He didn't get burn (I think we should have given more burn to prevent us from being in this exact situation we're in), and he kept being injured. Obviously that's not his fault. He's shown some flashes of really good D on very limited sample sizes in the playoffs against Harden. People are knocking guys like Caruso for getting hyped by their limited sample size while at the same time rationalizing continued sunk cost when Exum's highs seriously have similar sample sizes.

The truth is, IDGAF about Mudiay. Very meh signing for me. But I think there's a very important lesson to be had here. Mudiay was a #7 pick. He had a lot of hype. He averaged 12 ppg as a rookie and 11 ppg as a sophomore. Despite that, Denver traded him for Devin Harris and a second round pick. He averaged 15 ppg last year. Despite that, NYK didn't look at him and say "he was drafted 7th and he's still got untapped potential." No. They let him walk. Nobody around the league is looking at him and seeing #7 pick and potential after four seasons. Literally nobody. He just got a minimum contract. That's where his value is. Does this sound familiar? The Jazz are taking a very different approach with Exum when NBA history is riddled with these cases. Because of a familiarity bias we are prone to overvalue Exum far above and beyond what anybody else would. We certainly don't overvalue the Exum of other teams because we don't have that same familiarity. If Exum were waived today, what's his market? Nobody here is clamoring for Elfrid Payton or even Mudiay, yet those are two guys who have done more than Exum has thus far and are very similar players.

Jabari Parker was drafted second the same year Exum was drafted. He's also had unfortunate injuries that have limited his career. He's a former 20 ppg scorer. For as good as Exum is on defense, Jabari is as good on offense, and for as bad as Jabari is on defense, Exum is as bad on offense. Despite investing a #2 draft pick in him, Milwaukee let him sign elsewhere. The Wizards aren't factoring in that he's a former #2 pick when they're going to let him sign elsewhere. How much money is he going to get in free agency this year? My guess is that it nowhere approximates $20M over two years.

So, really, I have two questions:

1) Is it irrational for people to consider this an opportunity cost and want to move on at this point?

2) If people are wanting to move on, does that equate to hate?
Click to expand...


Dude this is well articulated ..........
But if you don't think the animus against Dante is real - I don't know what to tell you.

Lottery picks bust and not work out all the time - but here there is a special intensity about him. A real sense of pleasure twisting the knife.

I get that Exum still being on the roster is part of the problem with people's frustration, but for such a huge part of the fan base they appear to lack any semblance of empathy and seem to think Exum is unplayable because of his injuries. I prefer it when people just thought he sucked and didn't deserved minutes over Mack, Neto, Chris Johnson, Lilsap etc.

I think someone picked up on it earlier - its the fanboy element on here (and elsewhere) which I think has riled up the hate toward him.

Hate is not found in wanting to move on from Exum - it's the way this is spoken about and the 'told you so' ******** which emanates from so many posts.

I think fans are pissed off that DL is still saying **** you to you all and your sunk cost blah blah.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
He’s not a net negative on defense though... Mudiay has been.

I’ll say it again... Mudiay is very Burksy... creating a shot for himself might be valuable in some cases but I struggle to see a good fit inside our system. Low cost high reward so why not... let’s see what he can do.
Click to expand...
Great point . Mudiay is very Burks - esque
 
infection said:
There are maybe 1-2 people here who hate Exum. The rest of us would rather move on, which people view the same as hating, I guess. It's not Exum himself. It's that with the current dynamics he represents an opportunity cost and we're continuing down this path because of a sunk cost fallacy.

Look, I wasn't huge on the Exum draft. I saw him as someone who was quick and athletic but didn't seem to have specific skill, which JFC gets really excited about any time they see it (Saer Sene, Jeremy Evans, etc.). Despite that, I have no beef with the pick, and it was the obvious pick. When we moved back from 3 to 5 our destiny was sealed. It was looking like we'd get Aaron Gordon, who I also wasn't excited about but whatever. It is what it is. Then Orlando took Gordon and Exum was the obvious choice. Not exactly the way we saw all our tanking efforts ending. We closed his rookie season strong and he started and played good D, so I was hopeful. Then he was injured. Then he came back and wasn't getting burn. We passed on picking up DWill off waivers to "clear the path" for Exum, then he was being benched for Mack, who sucked, and I disagreed with that. If we were going to pass on DWill to give Exum burn, don't play Mack. He would have occasional flashes where he'd drive the lane, but this was few and far between. He didn't get burn (I think we should have given more burn to prevent us from being in this exact situation we're in), and he kept being injured. Obviously that's not his fault. He's shown some flashes of really good D on very limited sample sizes in the playoffs against Harden. People are knocking guys like Caruso for getting hyped by their limited sample size while at the same time rationalizing continued sunk cost when Exum's highs seriously have similar sample sizes.

The truth is, IDGAF about Mudiay. Very meh signing for me. But I think there's a very important lesson to be had here. Mudiay was a #7 pick. He had a lot of hype. He averaged 12 ppg as a rookie and 11 ppg as a sophomore. Despite that, Denver traded him for Devin Harris and a second round pick. He averaged 15 ppg last year. Despite that, NYK didn't look at him and say "he was drafted 7th and he's still got untapped potential." No. They let him walk. Nobody around the league is looking at him and seeing #7 pick and potential after four seasons. Literally nobody. He just got a minimum contract. That's where his value is. Does this sound familiar? The Jazz are taking a very different approach with Exum when NBA history is riddled with these cases. Because of a familiarity bias we are prone to overvalue Exum far above and beyond what anybody else would. We certainly don't overvalue the Exum of other teams because we don't have that same familiarity. If Exum were waived today, what's his market? Nobody here is clamoring for Elfrid Payton or even Mudiay, yet those are two guys who have done more than Exum has thus far and are very similar players.

Jabari Parker was drafted second the same year Exum was drafted. He's also had unfortunate injuries that have limited his career. He's a former 20 ppg scorer. For as good as Exum is on defense, Jabari is as good on offense, and for as bad as Jabari is on defense, Exum is as bad on offense. Despite investing a #2 draft pick in him, Milwaukee let him sign elsewhere. The Wizards aren't factoring in that he's a former #2 pick when they're going to let him sign elsewhere. How much money is he going to get in free agency this year? My guess is that it nowhere approximates $20M over two years.

So, really, I have two questions:

1) Is it irrational for people to consider this an opportunity cost and want to move on at this point?

2) If people are wanting to move on, does that equate to hate?
Click to expand...

Great post. Lots of common sense in it and stated in a way that hits home, even to the Exum homers.
 
From Tony Jones's recent article

Mudiay will be a bit of a reclamation project for Utah. The Jazz see him as someone who can play both guard spots and who can score off the bench. He’s 6-foot-5, which is great size for a point guard. He was a starter for much of last season with the New York Knicks, and he averaged 14.8 points per game.

But there wasn’t much of a market for him in free agency, which is why the Jazz were able to secure him for the minimum. Mudiay was once a hot prospect, a lottery pick for the Denver Nuggets. And he has some talent. But his lack of defense and his penchant for turning the basketball over represent big no-nos for a point guard.

Still, the ability to create off the dribble, his age (Mudiay is just 23 years old), his size for position and his athleticism are all intriguing. And that’s where the Jazz come in. Without much of a market, Mudiay’s agent, BJ Armstrong, wanted his client to go to a team with a strong developmental program, sources tell The Athletic. In essence, his year with the Jazz is basically a tryout. If he’s good, the Jazz will have interest in bringing him back on a more permanent contract. If not, the Jazz can wash their hands without having committed a significant financial resource.
Click to expand...
 
Might as well bring in Dragan Bender and Furkan Korkmaz. Spin the tires on some young guys and hope you max out their potential.
 
Watcher said:
Locke gave some history/insight into Mudiay in the later part of his podcast today. I came away thinking that development work with our coaches may actually help turn him into something.
Click to expand...

He’s probably spewed the same crap about Rxum for five years now.
 
Et tu Brute said:
Dude this is well articulated ..........
But if you don't think the animus against Dante is real - I don't know what to tell you.

Lottery picks bust and not work out all the time - but here there is a special intensity about him. A real sense of pleasure twisting the knife.

I get that Exum still being on the roster is part of the problem with people's frustration, but for such a huge part of the fan base they appear to lack any semblance of empathy and seem to think Exum is unplayable because of his injuries. I prefer it when people just thought he sucked and didn't deserved minutes over Mack, Neto, Chris Johnson, Lilsap etc.

I think someone picked up on it earlier - its the fanboy element on here (and elsewhere) which I think has riled up the hate toward him.

Hate is not found in wanting to move on from Exum - it's the way this is spoken about and the 'told you so' ******** which emanates from so many posts.

I think fans are pissed off that DL is still saying **** you to you all and your sunk cost blah blah.
Click to expand...

"and seem to think Exum is unplayable because of his injuries"

No. That literally the definition of unplayable. There is no thinking or opinions about it.
 
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