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Well...so much for trading AK.

Whatever, vj. I would love to rescue you from the depths of your cipher-reputation (Rep Power = 0), but not on the basis of your extreme rant here.

yeah lets sign your boy Fesenko for the MAX instead. Might cure your Asperger syndrome one of these days.

As for AK, he will be a 30+ role player with increasing back spasm (and other) problems and who has'nt been a big factor in any of the playoff series over the last 4 years. Oh, he surely deserves a 9 mil per yer contract, right? Because it wont be the Utah Jazz if we did'nt have atleast one overpaid role player on the team consistently underperforming in the playoffs.

Just watch how this season is better--not only becuase it's a contract year but also because Boozer isn't in the paint pushing his own teammates out of the way for rebounds and not enabling AK and others help him play defense

So, Boozer prevented AK from helping him play better defense? Funny crap.

So to say that AK is barely worth the MLE, even with injuries, is quite far-fetched.

If you had read my post carefully, actually the very first line, I had talked about giving him MORE than the mid-level as the debatable part, especially if he doesnt have a stellar season. I never said he was not worth or "barely worth" the mid-level. I even said the Jazz FO can redeem themselves by making AK agree to a mid-level contract. Which part of that did you not get?
 
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yeah lets sign your boy Fesenko for the MAX instead. Might cure your Asperger syndrome one of these days.
Why further lower your credibility by making and irrelevant comment--and by resorting to hyperbole? Even I would acknowledge that Fes is not worth the max and is probably not worth the MLE.

As for AK, he will be a 30+ role player with increasing back spasm (and other) problems and who has'nt been a big factor in any of the playoff series over the last 4 years. Oh, he surely deserves a 9 mil per yer contract, right? Because it wont be the Utah Jazz if we did'nt have atleast one overpaid role player on the team consistently underperforming in the playoffs.
I guess it depends on what you call "big factor". While the injuries of the last two seasons are a big negative, it doesn't relegate Kirilenko to the MLE. He started every game of the first two playoff seasons of the past four years, and he averaged nearly 10 points per game and more than 2 blocks per game in those playoff tournaments. In the real world (not yours), the standard for such production is more than the MLE.

So, Boozer prevented AK from helping him play better defense? Funny crap.
Not funny at all. It is widely known that Boozer is a pathetic defender, and it's difficult to provide good help defense if the initial man-to-man defense sucks. Unlike your spewing, I'll actually provide a citation also.

The 2006–2007 season was a tremendous disappointment for Kirilenko. While playing in 70 games and not missing much playing time, he averaged career lows in points (8.3), rebounds (4.7), and field goal attempts (3.4). It has been said that much of this decline can be attributed to the main offensive emphasis on Carlos Boozer, Deron Williams, and Mehmet Okur, and that Kirilenko was uncomfortable losing his position as the main go-to guy on the team. His frustration eventually culminated in a widely-publicized breakdown near the end of the Jazz's first-round playoffs series against the Houston Rockets. Kirilenko bounced back to lead Russia to the championship in EuroBasket 2007, and was named MVP of the tournament. Following his performance in the 2007 European championship he asked to be released from his contract to return to Russia to play basketball. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Kirilenko_(basketball)#Utah_Jazz_.281999-present.29
It's also no secret that Kirilenko's involvement in the offense and "touches" went way down with Carlos Boozer, who probably didn't put forth any effort whatsoever in involving AK in the offense because it potentially would've reduced CB's precious stat line.

If you had read my post carefully, actually the very first line, I had talked about giving him MORE than the mid-level as the debatable part, especially if he doesnt have a stellar season. I never said he was not worth or "barely worth" the mid-level. I even said the Jazz FO can redeem themselves by making AK agree to a mid-level contract. Which part of that did you not get?
OK yes, I misread that had actually allowed the notion that AK would warrant more than the MLE. My apologies.

Then you go on to say that it's "foolish to spend 8-9 mil year on a guy who has screwed this franchise for the last 5 years" when his effort has been decent--not outstanding--and wasn't screwing anybody; he was playing under an arms-length, two-way contract, and he wasn't even using his "free pass" from Masha (lol).

The tone of your rant struck me as undervaluing AK, and the SF "comps" are well above the MLE. You confirmed that the Jazz "can redeem themselves by making AK agree to a mid-level contract." Such a notion is silly; few players--if any--do that. Under your logic, the Jazz owe Matthews a check for starting much of the season on a minimum rookie contract << rolleyes >>.

AK can easily go back to Russia for big money or to the Nets for reasonable money. He doesn't have to right a wrong salarywise when it was the Jazz who were in error for giving him so much money. He's not a max guy, but he's not an MLE guy, either.

That's what I focused on, and that's what I stand by.
 
AK owes us one great year, and then we need to part ways with him.

Ummm, if he gives us a great year, then dont you think we should try to re-sign him? If it were not for the injuries last year he was having a great season. Of course therein lies the problem with AK.
 
Forget 4 years. Signing AK to 4 after his 10th season, with all his back problems and proneness to injury is absurd. KOC and the entire Jazz organization know it, including AK. AK has 2 more productive years in him. Anything over that will be a bonus to AK's retirement fund. So forget signing the guy to 4 years, unless you're going to taper off his pay to nothing after 2. AK wouldn't go for that since it's not a gamble signing for 2 and giving up the following 2 for a minimum offer. He'll take more up front for less years--most likely 2. That's what GM's and players do in this league. The GM offers more now for less years. The player gets more per year but has less years in an NBA guaranteed contract. See Okur's resign last year.

So you have to decide what he's worth for 2 years, 3 max. He may get 8-10/yr for 2, or something like 20-24 over 3 is my best guess.

My opinion is I don't care if he leaves for 8 -10 per or the MLE since I don't think AK puts the Jazz over the hump. They might as well save the money to splurge later if given the chance.
 
the funny thing is, AK could absolutely be the swing player this year, the guy who makes the difference between 45 wins and 55 wins. if he has the kind of year i think he might -- with KOC already having hinted to a bigger role for AK -- we might all chuckle a year from now that people questioned whether he was worth 7M.

BUT... even if that happens, he's going to be a 30-year-old free agent. history doesn't bode well for guys who sign long-term deals at that age. that could put the jazz in an interesting position with AK next summer. if he has a turn-around season (and he might) they have to figure out if it's fluke rule stuff or a sign that the changes put him in a prominent role and let his strengths show.

let's not forget, the last time the jazz relied on AK every time down the floor, he was an all-star.
 
the funny thing is, AK could absolutely be the swing player this year, the guy who makes the difference between 45 wins and 55 wins. if he has the kind of year i think he might -- with KOC already having hinted to a bigger role for AK -- we might all chuckle a year from now that people questioned whether he was worth 7M.

BUT... even if that happens, he's going to be a 30-year-old free agent. history doesn't bode well for guys who sign long-term deals at that age. that could put the jazz in an interesting position with AK next summer. if he has a turn-around season (and he might) they have to figure out if it's fluke rule stuff or a sign that the changes put him in a prominent role and let his strengths show.

let's not forget, the last time the jazz relied on AK every time down the floor, he was an all-star.

I don't think the Jazz put themselves in a great position if they wait until next summer. Age and injuries should be factored into contract proposals. But the time to strike is training camp when AK shows up healthy for inspection. Years on the deal always vary with the price. But they would be foolish not to negotiate at 3/4 seasons before the season.
 
you're talking extension? oh man, jazzfanz would go nuts.

but i'll play along. let's say he shows up like a new man and they're ready to get him more involved and they sit down to discuss a 3-year extension. how much?
 
you're talking extension? oh man, jazzfanz would go nuts.

but i'll play along. let's say he shows up like a new man and they're ready to get him more involved and they sit down to discuss a 3-year extension. how much?

3 year starts at 7 if the Jazz want to be cheap, 8 realistic, and goes to 9. My guess is they would offer 4 @ 32 and hope all the history convinces him to sign. Odom doesn't even have a guaranteed 4th year so they could hard line him at 3 with a team option that they could float with precedent. The question, to my mind, becomes whether you'd rather pay less per year for 4, or guarantee that 4th year to get even less as an annual. I'd go 4, but I'm guessing KOC would rather go 3 at higher per year salaries.
 
I guess it depends on what you call "big factor". While the injuries of the last two seasons are a big negative, it doesn't relegate Kirilenko to the MLE. He started every game of the first two playoff seasons of the past four years, and he averaged nearly 10 points per game and more than 2 blocks per game in those playoff tournaments.

Meaningless stats. How many of those playoff series we could'nt have won without AK? In how many of those series did he actually make an impact? In how many he wasa the X-factor? He was either whining in a corner or was the 5th option at best when we were winning all those series.
Stop your stats obsession and actually WATCH some freaking games.

Even Mathews averaged 10+ pts for the Jazz and was a starter in the playoffs, so does that mean the Jazz should have matched or even paid more to Mathews this offseason? He also played all 82 games last season, to boot and was graded the best defender.



AK can easily go back to Russia for big money or to the Nets for reasonable money. He doesn't have to right a wrong salarywise when it was the Jazz who were in error for giving him so much money.

Right, so let him do that if he wants more than 7-8 mil a year. Take a hike to Russia or to the Nets

He's not a max guy, but he's not an MLE guy, either.

He is certainly not a MAX guy and it is certainly HIGHLY debatable if he is worth more than the mid-level.
 
This is from Hollingers Chat:



I know KOC is smart and won't trade him for nothing. But this means its going to be much harder to get any value from him. Maybe the best thing is just to let him expire, and then see if he wants to return on the cheap. If not then we have capspace for a pretty good free agent.

Wow, KOC is smart?? This deserves its own topic. But playing out AK's contract would definately be the best thing for the team. We've been carrying his overpayed contract for so long, what's another year?? Also ak can provide some steller defence. It makes no sense to trade him now and get caught up in another hefty contract for someone else and just drag out this massive salary for 1 or 2 more years. Let him play, let it run out, and let's hope that no one refers to KOC as being smart. The reason we got Al Jefferson is because of Al's agent and maybe a little KOC. If he was smart he wouldn't screw up 3 times per season.
 
Forget 4 years. Signing AK to 4 after his 10th season, with all his back problems and proneness to injury is absurd. KOC and the entire Jazz organization know it, including AK. AK has 2 more productive years in him. Anything over that will be a bonus to AK's retirement fund. .

Apparently one good season in a contract year from AK is enough for some homers here to hand him a 4 yr 36 mil contract.

Never mind the past. Never mind the future.
 
Meaningless stats. How many of those playoff series we could'nt have won without AK? In how many of those series did he actually make an impact? In how many he wasa the X-factor? He was either whining in a corner or was the 5th option at best when we were winning all those series.
Stop your stats obsession and actually WATCH some freaking games.
Speaking of Asperger's, you've started your hate-tinged rant again. The argument could go the other way: despite feeling marginalized in the offense, he still put up those numbers.

Like many Jazz fans (and the coaching staff sometimes, too), you are focusing too much on offense. AK has been #5 among starters in the number of FGAs. This is behind a nontraditional center who is a better offensive player than defender, a PF who cares about points more than defense, a PG who can both pass and score, and a rotisserie of wings who either played the baseline or shot too much (Matthews not being one of them; Fisher yes being one of them).

Even Mathews averaged 10+ pts for the Jazz and was a starter in the playoffs, so does that mean the Jazz should have matched or even paid more to Mathews this offseason? He also played all 82 games last season, to boot and was graded the best defender.
It's laughable that you fell into the trap of citing Matthews, who shot below 40% in the playoffs.

Who graded Matthews the best defender, btw?

Right, so let him do that if he wants more than 7-8 mil a year. Take a hike to Russia or to the Nets
Evidently you would like that. But unless Elder Hayward far exceeds expectations defensively, Kirilenko's departure would put a huge hole defensively in the Jazz's wing rotation. Bell can't do it on his own, and Miles hasn't exactly been a model defender.

And if he wants substantially more than 7 or 8 mil per year, I'd let him walk, too. Funny that you originally were ranting about the MLE, and now you're saying 7 or 8 million. Just sayin'.


He is certainly not a MAX guy and it is certainly HIGHLY debatable if he is worth more than the mid-level.
The salaries of most of the top 20 non-rookie-contract SFs say more than the MLE.

Haven't seen many preview SF rankings yet, but this 2009 source had Kirilenko well within that ranking range.
https://www.thoughtsfromthejockstra...2009/top-10-nba-small-forwards-2009-2010.html
 
billy - setting aside for a minute what is "fair market value" for AK and all discussions about how he might impact his value by playing well/poorly this season...

jazz fans would riot if they signed him to a 4-yr 32M extension right now. most fans are so ready to get out from under AK. not me. i'm one of the few people who still holds out hope that the jazz will make a conscious decision to use him the right way and get him back to being the odom-esque X-factor he could have been all along. (that was a crazy sentence structure.) i think they'd need to see him to some degree (pre-season?) and know that he was ready to play that role before they hitched their cart to that horse for another 4 years.
 
billy - setting aside for a minute what is "fair market value" for AK and all discussions about how he might impact his value by playing well/poorly this season...

jazz fans would riot if they signed him to a 4-yr 32M extension right now. most fans are so ready to get out from under AK. not me. i'm one of the few people who still holds out hope that the jazz will make a conscious decision to use him the right way and get him back to being the odom-esque X-factor he could have been all along. (that was a crazy sentence structure.) i think they'd need to see him to some degree (pre-season?) and know that he was ready to play that role before they hitched their cart to that horse for another 4 years.

I'm sure there would be backlash, I just don't think KOC cares. And I don't doubt they want to see AK in preseason, but more for practical reasons. A) They want to see he's healthy before they sign him and B) They want the whole summer market to dry out in the very odd chance a deal popped up. But the other reason I think they should go after him early is their cap situation. They can extend AK AND get the MLE, or lose AK and get the MLE. I'd much rather have AK and then the MLE to add a player than be forced to use the MLE to replace AK. I think that could be explained pretty easily to fans. The only alternative is to let AK drop from the books, and then wait another year for Okur to drop off before they actually have Cap Space to make a run at players. Correct me if I'm wrong on the Cap stuff.
 
oh, don't get me wrong billy... i agree with everything you're saying. i'm just saying that i don't think most fans agree with us. most fans would trade AK right now for a second-round pick and the myth of financial flexibility, just because they think he's overpaid. (he is, but that's not the point.) if AK is compensated at the right price point AND involved at the right level, he can have a PROFOUND impact on the success of this team.

from the way KOC is talking, it sounds like they might be starting to think about involving him the right way, so ya... if we could lock him into a 3-year deal in the right price range, i'm on board. but i foresee pitchforks and torches outside KOC's office if it happens.
 
oh, don't get me wrong billy... i agree with everything you're saying. i'm just saying that i don't think most fans agree with us. most fans would trade AK right now for a second-round pick and the myth of financial flexibility, just because they think he's overpaid. (he is, but that's not the point.) if AK is compensated at the right price point AND involved at the right level, he can have a PROFOUND impact on the success of this team.

from the way KOC is talking, it sounds like they might be starting to think about involving him the right way, so ya... if we could lock him into a 3-year deal in the right price range, i'm on board. but i foresee pitchforks and torches outside KOC's office if it happens.

When's the last time he's had a profound impact on this team? 'Nuff said.
 
oh, don't get me wrong billy... i agree with everything you're saying. i'm just saying that i don't think most fans agree with us. most fans would trade AK right now for a second-round pick and the myth of financial flexibility, just because they think he's overpaid. (he is, but that's not the point.) if AK is compensated at the right price point AND involved at the right level, he can have a PROFOUND impact on the success of this team.

from the way KOC is talking, it sounds like they might be starting to think about involving him the right way, so ya... if we could lock him into a 3-year deal in the right price range, i'm on board. but i foresee pitchforks and torches outside KOC's office if it happens.

I think your wrong on the most fans part. I think AK has a good # of haters. But a lot of the other fans are more upset by the size of his contract than by Ak himself. I for one have always liked AK the player. But that contract has been a real tough pill to swallow. Ak at the right amount of money and he would not be taking near the amount of heat he currently does.
 
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