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What do you consider a "failed" offseason for the Jazz?

stitches said:
The problem is that FAs don't come to Utah for fair value that's easy to outperform. They come for overpayment... so it's much less likely they surpass that value. Just an example... how much do you think it would take for us to get Jeremy Lamb? What about Terrence Ross?

In general IMO when it's almost guaranteed you are going to overpay for whoever comes to us, overpay for the best possible player you can get...
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I'm thinking more of the JaMychal Green's of the world... trying to get him on a 3 year 20-24M deal is potentially more value than keeping Favs on a one year rental deal at $18M. I think those types of deals are out there.

Ross and Lamb are interesting anything from 10-17M per year for them wouldn't surprise me. I'm looking maybe a tier below them for value if I miss on top tier guys. I think I'd rather push for Danny Green than those guys and I think he's gettable for us at a 10-12M annual salary.

Getting JaMychal at 3/24 and Danny for 3/33ish and using our other space on a one year rental or to assume more in a trade would be better than just running it back imo. I wouldn't call it success, but not a failure either. Could also have those deals decline in annual salary to make them mildly better assets if the other cap space doesn't look like it will bring something good.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I think it's 9 million, so 1.6
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K, well, here's a link.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah_jazz/

The burden of proof is yours if it's different. More to the point though, your argument is still very weak if you think 10% less on his deal somehow makes him worth it.

He isn't worth half his deal. Whether that's $9 million or $11 million. His contribution thus far has been arguably less than $0 since the net has always been that the team is worse when he plays (which is another issue unto itself).
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I'm thinking more of the JaMychal Green's of the world... trying to get him on a 3 year 20-24M deal is potentially more value than keeping Favs on a one year rental deal at $18M. I think those types of deals are out there.

Ross and Lamb are interesting anything from 10-17M per year for them wouldn't surprise me. I'm looking maybe a tier below them for value if I miss on top tier guys. I think I'd rather push for Danny Green than those guys and I think he's gettable for us at a 10-12M annual salary.

Getting JaMychal at 3/24 and Danny for 3/33ish and using our other space on a one year rental or to assume more in a trade would be better than just running it back imo. I wouldn't call it success, but not a failure either. Could also have those deals decline in annual salary to make them mildly better assets if the other cap space doesn't look like it will bring something good.
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This kind of defeats the purpose though. One of the main reasons you pointed out about signing a lower level FA to longer contract is that they might become a chip to trade for a star. Both Greens are not the type of player that will ever get this type of value simply because they are older players. The reason Saric and Covington were good chips is because they were relatively young and they had promise for the future. Danny Green is about to turn 32 and Jamychal is about to turn 30, both of them in less than a month.
 
NUMBERICA said:
K, well, here's a link.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah_jazz/

The burden of proof is yours if it's different. More to the point though, your argument is still very weak if you think 10% less on his deal somehow makes him worth it.

He isn't worth half his deal. Whether that's $9 million or $11 million. His contribution thus far has been arguably less than $0 since the net has always been that the team is worse when he plays (which is another issue unto itself).
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10.6 was the maximum he could have made with incentives. 1 million of those were "unlikely" so his base salary was 9.6 (the salary that shows up on the cap sheet). He missed 500k in likely incentives due to games missed, which I think was 500K.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/dante-exum-15357/

And you are just flat out undervaluing his defense.
 
stitches said:
This kind of defeats the purpose though. One of the main reasons you pointed out about signing a lower level FA to longer contract is that they might become a chip to trade for a star. Both Greens are not the type of player that will ever get this type of value simply because they are older players. The reason Saric and Covington were good chips is because they were relatively young and they had promise for the future. Danny Green is about to turn 32 and Jamychal is about to turn 30, both of them in less than a month.
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Maybe but say you had signed Bojan Bogdonovic last summer to a 4/52M deal... totally doable and might have looked like a “meh” deal... we’d be over the moon to have that deal now.

They aren’t all trade chips but deals on guys that are valuable starters or unique talents are what I’m targeting. Houston could have gotten Jimmy Butler... they wouldn’t put PJ Tucker in any trade for him... he’s one of those contracts on a unique talent but older player. If you can’t get a star that is where I see the most value in free agency.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
10.6 was the maximum he could have made with incentives. 1 million of those were "unlikely" so his base salary was 9.6 (the salary that shows up on the cap sheet). He missed 500k in likely incentives due to games missed, which I think was 500K.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/dante-exum-15357/

And you are just flat out undervaluing his defense.
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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/exumda01.html#advanced::none

I think his defense is good but overrated, and his offense is atrocious. The NET.

He has never had a positive +/- for a season. He has never had positive value over a replacement player.
 
NUMBERICA said:
K, well, here's a link.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah_jazz/

The burden of proof is yours if it's different. More to the point though, your argument is still very weak if you think 10% less on his deal somehow makes him worth it.

He isn't worth half his deal. Whether that's $9 million or $11 million. His contribution thus far has been arguably less than $0 since the net has always been that the team is worse when he plays (which is another issue unto itself).
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Here is the deal... If Exum was a free agent right now what kind of contract offer would he get on the open market? Would he get 2 year $9M per? I say nah... 2 year $5M per... maybe?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Maybe but say you had signed Bojan Bogdonovic last summer to a 4/52M deal... totally doable and might have looked like a “meh” deal... we’d be over the moon to have that deal now.

They aren’t all trade chips but deals on guys that are valuable starters or unique talents are what I’m targeting. Houston could have gotten Jimmy Butler... they wouldn’t put PJ Tucker in any trade for him... he’s one of those contracts on a unique talent but older player. If you can’t get a star that is where I see the most value in free agency.
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OK, here's another one... what about Julius Randle? How much does he get? And would you give it to him?
 
NUMBERICA said:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/exumda01.html#advanced::none

I think his defense is good but overrated, and his offense is atrocious. The NET.
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Yeah, I agree on the offense, but I still think he has potential there (not star, but to just be good at what he can do) if the team goes the route they hopefully go (adding more shooters/scorers). Exum got kind of screwed this year on the stats end by getting injured shortly after the Korver trade (Exum and Korver were +22 points per 100 in their 160 minutes together, which would be 2nd on the team in 2-man ratings), which is when the bench production really turned around. A lot of the bench guys were hurt prior to the trade because the 2nd unit just didnt play well together. Not to mention Exum played the hard half of the schedule, not the easy one. Imagine how disappointing Mitchell's season would have looked stat wise if he got injured at the same point.

And Exum gets undervalued by some defensive metrics because of his low steal rate.
 
stitches said:
OK, here's another one... what about Julius Randle? How much does he get? And would you give it to him?
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That's a tough one. Creates some of the spacing issues but can create. I think he gets 4/55M (anything from 48-60M wouldn't surprise me).

I don't know on him and Rudy being a better fit than Favs and Rudy... I think he goes to Dallas. I probably would not pay what it takes to sign him...I think we'd have to be 4/60M+

I think that Randle might be a better trade asset on that type of deal than Favs on a one year 18M deal though. If we could get Favs for that I'd be happy but that option isn't there either.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Yeah, I agree on the offense, but I still think he has potential there (not star, but to just be good at what he can do) if the team goes the route they hopefully go (adding more shooters/scorers). Exum got kind of screwed this year on the stats end by getting injured shortly after the Korver trade (Exum and Korver were +22 points per 100 in their 160 minutes together, which would be 2nd on the team in 2-man ratings), which is when the bench production really turned around. A lot of the bench guys were hurt prior to the trade because the 2nd unit just didnt play well together.

And Exum gets undervalued by some defensive metrics because of his low steal rate.
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Another entry in the building-sized filing cabinet "Exum's Excuses".
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
If Exum can get anywhere close to that then Utah should buy him out and wash their hands clean if their blunder.
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Wouldn’t save all that much cap space... would be 5M plus a 900k caphold. If they negotiated a buyout then stretched the remaining salary then would provide more space.

We are okay where we currently sit cap wise and could use Exum in a bigger trade... so all is not lost... yet.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Wouldn’t save all that much cap space... would be 5M plus a 900k caphold. If they negotiated a buyout then stretched the remaining salary then would provide more space.

We are okay where we currently sit cap wise and could use Exum in a bigger trade... so all is not lost... yet.
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Saving the money is better when his trade value is nothing more than filler salary. 69 million is a better position than 73 million.

Utah wont do it because the arbitration wont set the buyout low enough.
 
Failed off season is you dont pick up Favs option and let him walk and no free agents want to sign here. So basically lose Rubio and Favs and try to roll the same team without those two.
 
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