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What's JazzFanz's stance on Marriage Equality?

This right here is the most offensive thing you can say about homosexuality. Homosexuality is a choice? Have you seen the suicide numbers for homosexual youth? Do you not understand why people spend so many years hiding in the closet? Its because they're trying to force themselves into heteronormative behavior.

No one would CHOOSE to be gay. Too many kids kill themselves because they can't choose to be heterosexual.

Seriously-- look at the numbers of LGBT suicides/suicide attempts compared to non-LGBT suicide/suicide attempts.

You can, however, choose not to act on your sexual urges.

I'd be curious to know if the suicide rate among this group is now higher, lower or the same as it was, say 40 years ago?

That alone is enough proof, in my opinion, that homosexuality is NOT a choice. "God" gave us free will, sure, but you can't will your hair to change color, you can't will your skin to change color, and you can't will your sexual preference... unless you're bi, and you can swing both ways.

Are you suggesting that homosexuals can not act on their urges and still live a normal and happy life? You can dye your hair or even your skin and live a perfectly happy life. In fact many people do just that.
 
I believe if you want to marry the same sex then you should go for it. Just do it. Nike. (Michael Scott Impression)

Seriously, I don't have a problem with it, at all.
 
I don't think whether homosexuality is a choice or not makes homosexuality and homosexual marriage any more or less valid. If people are naturally gay or make a decision to be gay, I think they have every right to exist as they are and to pursue happiness in the context of who they are. The same rules that should apply to all of us should apply to them as well. If they aren't hurting anyone we should let them make their own choices. That's all I ask in return.
 
I read this thread first thing this morning and didn't have time to comment until now. I'm probably going to go back some on the topics discussed, but you can suck it.
My belief system is that I believe in God. I believe He created man and woman for a reason (I think the joke about it being Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve is a bit retarded, but that is essentially my view). I also feel that if two guys (or two girls) want to get married, it has zero effect on my eternal salvation. Why should I (or anyone else) stand in the way of that?
I will disagree with Xsy's (I think that's who it was) statement that God = religion. To me, religion is an organized body (a "church" if you will) while God is the Supreme Being. One does not have to belong to a religion to be spiritual/Christian/God-fearing.
 
Marriage existed long before monotheistic religions decided to put the "sacred" moniker on it.

The vast majority of marriage in the world hasn't been monogamous, either.

And if you want, I'll do the research to societies where homosexual marriages were no different and as acceptable as heterosexual ones.

And claiming that the relatively recent description of marriage by Christians can be considered "traditional" is ignoring thousands of years of history and even more time in prehistory.

Marriage between a man and a woman is not an inherently Christian or mono-theistic concept. It is the way by which humankind produces its descendants and the way that societies have been structured by virtually all civilizations throughout history--Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Celtic, Nordic, Germanic, African, Native American....etc. If you don't like my using the word 'sacred' then consider that my own value judgment, as I consider all life to be sacred, just as I consider people's unalienable rights to be sacred.

Should gay people have civil rights? Absolutely. But that's not what this is about. This isn't about life, liberty and equal protection under the law. Homosexuals are asking states to make a value judgment and confer equal cultural recognition upon the gay lifestyle. I understand why some people would want this, but personally, I think that would be a bad position for a moral republic to take. FWIW, I wouldn't be considered Christian.
 
You can, however, choose not to act on your sexual urges.

I'd be curious to know if the suicide rate among this group is now higher, lower or the same as it was, say 40 years ago?



Are you suggesting that homosexuals can not act on their urges and still live a normal and happy life? You can dye your hair or even your skin and live a perfectly happy life. In fact many people do just that.

Asking someone to live a life of celibacy is a disgusting thing to do. Love is a big deal-- finding love is pretty much the main goal of everyone who has ever lived. To ask someone to completely ignore it? That's what drives so many people to suicide. There are people who CAN live the life of celibacy... but no, I don't think they can have a normal, happy life. I'm not saying if you never find anyone, and you die single, your life has no meaning-- but to completely give up on it before you can even try? Ugh. I guess I'm just too much of a hopeless romantic.

For some reason, some people tend to think I decided to make a snap judgement and become gay. Its as if they think I didn't have an internal battle through most of my life, deciding whether or not I should come out. Whether or not it was evil. Whether or not I would go to heaven or hell.

In the end, I found that being gay is as natural as my green eyes. I'm not going to change them just because some people think it's wrong-- its not wrong. Its natural. I shouldn't have to change who I am to appease other people-- and other people shouldn't make me change who I am so that I fit into their viewpoint of life.

catratcho said:
I will disagree with Xsy's (I think that's who it was) statement that God = religion. To me, religion is an organized body (a "church" if you will) while God is the Supreme Being. One does not have to belong to a religion to be spiritual/Christian/God-fearing.

God = Religion
Organized Body (a "church" if you will) = Organized Religion
Belief in a supernatural being, on any level = Religious

imo.
 
Reading what you wrote there, Xsy, about being a hopeless romantic, got me thinking. What about ugly people? I mean, like, REALLY ugly people.
I bet they were born attracted to a better-looking version of themselves, regardless of gender. Dang. Sad ..
 
Marriage between a man and a woman is not an inherently Christian or mono-theistic concept. It is the way by which humankind produces its descendants and the way that societies have been structured by virtually all civilizations throughout history--Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Celtic, Nordic, Germanic, African, Native American....etc. If you don't like my using the word 'sacred' then consider that my own value judgment, as I consider all life to be sacred, just as I consider people's unalienable rights to be sacred.

Should gay people have civil rights? Absolutely. But that's not what this is about. This isn't about life, liberty and equal protection under the law. Homosexuals are asking states to make a value judgment and confer equal cultural recognition upon the gay lifestyle. I understand why some people would want this, but personally, I think that would be a bad position for a moral republic to take. FWIW, I wouldn't be considered Christian.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it's a duck. You're conferring everything that is marriage but not calling it marriage. How can something NOT be called marriage when it fits everything that describes marriage?
 
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Reading what you wrote there, Xsy, about being a hopeless romantic, got me thinking. What about ugly people? I mean, like, REALLY ugly people.
I bet they were born attracted to a better-looking version of themselves, regardless of gender. Dang. Sad ..

Dude I thought this same thing as I was typing it out. I was like "Man, I really hope none of the people here are super ugly, because this might just depress them."
 
Dude I thought this same thing as I was typing it out. I was like "Man, I really hope none of the people here are super ugly, because this might just depress them."

So then can't you just suck it up (no pun intended) and find a hot woman? Think of the ugly guys that wish they could do that. Think of THEM...
 
So then can't you just suck it up (no pun intended) and find a hot woman? Think of the ugly guys that wish they could do that. Think of THEM...

I could marry a woman if I wanted to. But I wouldn't be happy. And then I'd re-come out of the closet during a midlife crisis and run off with our pool boy.

I've seen that happen a couple times. Don't wanna be that guy.
 
I could marry a woman if I wanted to. But I wouldn't be happy. And then I'd re-come out of the closet during a midlife crisis and run off with our pool boy.

I've seen that happen a couple times. Don't wanna be that guy.

Obviously I said in jest. You have a great sense of humor, though. Taken it all in stride.
 
I wouldn't mind that they fought gay marriage if they would equally fight against atheist marriage, divorce, abortion, alcohol, etc.

The fact that they single gay marriage to the point where its becoming a national problem is a little ... awful.

This post tells me you either know little about the LDS church, or just have an axe to grind (likely), and don't care to look at why they take the position they take.

I understand that the popular belief is that Mormons hate gay people. Every segment of society is going to have people who do irrational things for irrational reasons, but speaking generally, this isn't the case. In fact, as of late, there has been a lot of emphasis within the church on loving and respecting all people. But you don't have to fully condone someone's lifestyle to be loving or respectful.

The LDS church is particularly defensive of "marriage=man+woman" because it has significant doctrinal implications. It is not because it wants homosexuals to have fewer rights. There are some requirements that must be met in order for a member to have temple blessings (these have eternal implications for followers...) One of them is The Law of Chastity, which states that one must abstain from any sexual relations outside of a legal and lawful marriage. Obviously, in LDS doctrine, homosexuality is a sin. But if a homosexual couple, legally married, follows every other requirement, what is to stop them from demanding that they should be able to participate in these sacred temples, and to possibly even litigate to do so? This is the kind of rock-and-a-hard-place I believe the church is trying to avoid.

This is why my position has always been just like Stoked's. Let "marriage" be the domain of religion, and let the state recognize only civil unions, with equal rights for any couple who becomes one.
 
This post tells me you either know little about the LDS church, or just have an axe to grind (likely), and don't care to look at why they take the position they take.

I understand that the popular belief is that Mormons hate gay people. Every segment of society is going to have people who do irrational things for irrational reasons, but speaking generally, this isn't the case. In fact, as of late, there has been a lot of emphasis within the church on loving and respecting all people. But you don't have to fully condone someone's lifestyle to be loving or respectful.

The LDS church is particularly defensive of "marriage=man+woman" because it has significant doctrinal implications. It is not because it wants homosexuals to have fewer rights. There are some requirements that must be met in order for a member to have temple blessings (these have eternal implications for followers...) One of them is The Law of Chastity, which states that one must abstain from any sexual relations outside of a legal and lawful marriage. Obviously, in LDS doctrine, homosexuality is a sin. But if a homosexual couple, legally married, follows every other requirement, what is to stop them from demanding that they should be able to participate in these sacred temples, and to possibly even litigate to do so? This is the kind of rock-and-a-hard-place I believe the church is trying to avoid.

This is why my position has always been just like Stoked's. Let "marriage" be the domain of religion, and let the state recognize only civil unions, with equal rights for any couple who becomes one.

A private entity can define who can and cannot participate in its own events and rituals. Using fear of litigation erroneously as an excuse to limit marriage is completely ridiculous. Has the LDS been sued and lost over a married couple who is not LDS being denied the right to see their child get married in the temple because they are not LDS?
 
A private entity can define who can and cannot participate in its own events and rituals.

This was true 20 years ago or more.

But regardless, the church is protecting its own doctrinal interests. That's the long and short of it. If you want to believe that they just hate gays, go ahead. You certainly aren't alone.
 
Well where do you draw the line then? Like if a guy wants to get with some sheep, you okay with that? What about if a guy wants to marry his niece?

Slippery slope.

Marriage is a relationship between consenting equals. Sheep don't consent, and a neice is not in an equitible relationship with an uncle.
 
This was true 20 years ago or more.

But regardless, the church is protecting its own doctrinal interests. That's the long and short of it. If you want to believe that they just hate gays, go ahead. You certainly aren't alone.

If you want to put words in people's mouths, go right ahead...

And Edit: It's not true now? Prove it.
 
So, for me personally, homosexuality is a choice, and one that everyone deserves the ability to make.

Edited based on your clarification.

So, for you , the choice is live in a loving relationship with another person or to suffer alone, and God prefers that some people do the latter. Well, you can't argue with God.
 
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