When will Jefferson have breakout season?

[Ben10]

It was my intention to only tell you once. You and Ben10 weren't willing to leave it at that. And if someone calls me wrong, I'm not just going to let that lie and deal with it in PMs. Why should I do something you and your lackey aren't willing to do?

I just expect a little intellectual honesty is all.

OK hold on a minute. Now I'm someone's lacky and getting insulted just because I posted the actual stats? Are you a mind reader GVC? How do you know that when he said 17 he was just pointing to a random stat? All I did was post the actual stat now I getting lumped into an argument between you and another poster. Did you even read my posts? I agreed with you in most of it or did you just stop at the part you didn't like? Get off your ******* high horse. Who made you the internet Jazz board god?

Wait never mind. I not getting involved in this because I was never trying to get into an argument in the first place. Sorry for trying to be part of the board and posting what I considered useful information.

 

[billyshelby]

One gripe I would like to point out, simply because I can and I find this annoying....

Look. I love that the Turks have come to share in the collective good and excitment that Kanter brings to this board and the Jazz. But ****, I'm tired of listening to the obvious jabs at our existing bigs in an attempt to somehow make room for Kanter. Like we should scrap all of our bigmen and start Kanter. Please mother*******. Kanter is good, and will perhaps be really good, but the kid needs to pay his dues and prove himself. Until then, Al and Sal aren't going anywhere. And sure as **** Kanter is not taking one of their spots until he shows he can play in the NBA. I'm excited about Kanter, but this whole "Big Al sucks, make room for Kanter" bull**** has got to stop. It's stupid and annoying as ****.

I completely agree, but I accept it as a substitute for what this board would have been like if we drafted Jimmer. There's only a few guys who will wet their pants in constant posts about Kanter not getting 47 minutes a night. We have been spared the tsunami of Jimmer urine. I'm grateful for that, though I am bracing for headlines like, "Jimmer scored 12 points with 3 assists last night and Burks did nothing and I'm so mad I bit a hole in my pillow and broke my night light!"

 

[GVC]

OK hold on a minute. Now I'm someone's lacky and getting insulted just because I posted the actual stats? Are you a mind reader GVC? How do you know that when he said 17 he was just pointing to a random stat? All I did was post the actual stat now I getting lumped into an argument between you and another poster. Did you even read my posts? I agreed with you in most of it or did you just stop at the part you didn't like? Get off your ******* high horse. Who made you the internet Jazz board god?

Wait never mind. I not getting involved in this because I was never trying to get into an argument in the first place. Sorry for trying to be part of the board and posting what I considered useful information.

blah blah blah.

Next time post the stats and move on then. You incorrectly told me I was wrong twice. I was respectful in my response the first time you did so, but you weren't willing to let it go at that point for some strange reason. It certainly seemed like you were trying to argue when you posted again, reasserting that I was wrong. Why should I pull my punches in the face of such obstinacy?

 

[Ben10]

blah blah blah.

Next time post the stats and move on then. You incorrectly told me I was wrong twice. I was respectful in my response the first time you did so, but you weren't willing to let it go at that point for some strange reason. It certainly seemed like you were trying to argue when you posted again, reasserting that I was wrong. Why should I pull my punches in the face of such obstinacy?

Ok lets stop for a second and reverse rolls. Lets just say that you posted the statement about 17 shots being the #. I look it up and see that it is 17.6. In my mind 17.6 is closer to 18 but it does say 17 and maybe he didn't look that close. My response would be something like Well the 17 is close to 18 but I can see were your getting the #'s from. And then go on and post what you did about Millsap being able to do is with more attempts.

For someone who doesn't think stats tell the whole story (again something I agree with) you are really obsessed with a .6
My point from the post that I made (regardless to the actual # of attempts taken) was that a player that scores 21 point a game on 50% from the floor (that is relied on by his teammates and coaches as the go to guy that can create his own shot, and is the focus of the Defense, which is what Al was expected to do up until this year) is a pretty efficiant scorer.

Me saying that you were wrong was prob a little over board as the # suggested was taken as a 17 instead of being completely accurate with the 17.6. But its still 50% from the floor. The point does stand that Millsap as not averaged 21 points a game on 50% from the field. Do I think that Millsap could reach those #'s. Maybe, but it well be hard because he isn't a player that can create his own shot on a consistent basis as the go to guy. And in most cases only the go to player on the team is going to get that many shots per game on average.

I just expect a little intellectual honesty is all.

Being called a "Lacky" and this little bit is the only reason I responded. Did I not post the exact stats for all to see? Was I not being honest somehow? I was just stating that in my mind Jefferson had accomplished what dalamon had said. In your mind it was different. Don't see how That makes me dishonest in any way when its just a matter of opinion. I have been a big fan of most of your post GVC. I read this board because I like other opinions on the team that I love. But differing opinions are what make boards like these fun, when in resorts to name calling and telling people that they are idiots ect.... thats when it gets personal. And Im not into that. So you have my apologies for anything that I have said in my posts that you took personal offense to. And I'll leave it there.

 

[billyshelby]

Ok lets stop for a second and reverse rolls. Lets just say that you posted the statement about 17 shots being the #. I look it up and see that it is 17.6. In my mind 17.6 is closer to 18 but it does say 17 and maybe he didn't look that close. My response would be something like Well the 17 is close to 18 but I can see were your getting the #'s from. And then go on and post what you did about Millsap being able to do is with more attempts.

For someone who doesn't think stats tell the whole story (again something I agree with) you are really obsessed with a .6
My point from the post that I made (regardless to the actual # of attempts taken) was that a player that scores 21 point a game on 50% from the floor (that is relied on by his teammates and coaches as the go to guy that can create his own shot, and is the focus of the Defense, which is what Al was expected to do up until this year) is a pretty efficiant scorer.

Me saying that you were wrong was prob a little over board as the # suggested was taken as a 17 instead of being completely accurate with the 17.6. But its still 50% from the floor. The point does stand that Millsap as not averaged 21 points a game on 50% from the field. Do I think that Millsap could reach those #'s. Maybe, but it well be hard because he isn't a player that can create his own shot on a consistent basis as the go to guy. And in most cases only the go to player on the team is going to get that many shots per game on average.


Being called a "Lacky" and this little bit is the only reason I responded. Did I not post the exact stats for all to see? Was I not being honest somehow? I was just stating that in my mind Jefferson had accomplished what dalamon had said. In your mind it was different. Don't see how That makes me dishonest in any way when its just a matter of opinion. I have been a big fan of most of your post GVC. I read this board because I like other opinions on the team that I love. But differing opinions are what make boards like these fun, when in resorts to name calling and telling people that they are idiots ect.... thats when it gets personal. And Im not into that. So you have my apologies for anything that I have said in my posts that you took personal offense to. And I'll leave it there.

You're missing the big point. GVC thinks any efficient scorer given more shots will produce as well as Al. He doesn't understand that there aren't that many guys in the NBA who can even get their own shot. Or that having guys who can get their own shot are essential to winning. He thinks Al's numbers were produced because he was allowed to shoot, not because Al has any special ability. GVC will tell you that Millsap could produce Al's numbers with a few extra shots, but those shots are being denied to him, not because he couldn't get them. Al averaging 21/11 and 23/11 for two years on Minny was only because he had carte blanch to shoot, not because he's extremely talented, and he hurt those teams doing that just as he'll hurt the Jazz if he does it again.

 

[Ben10]

You're missing the big point. GVC thinks any efficient scorer given more shots will produce as well as Al. He doesn't understand that there aren't that many guys in the NBA who can even get their own shot. Or that having guys who can get their own shot are essential to winning. He thinks Al's numbers were produced because he was allowed to shoot, not because Al has any special ability. GVC will tell you that Millsap could produce Al's numbers with a few extra shots, but those shots are being denied to him, not because he couldn't get them. Al averaging 21/11 and 23/11 for two years on Minny was only because he had carte blanch to shoot, not because he's extremely talented, and he hurt those teams doing that just as he'll hurt the Jazz if he does it again.

I don't think I'm missing that point by much considering that was what I was saying. But I do lean GVC direction when it comes to the fact that despite having great #'s Jeffeson has yet to play on a winning team since his rookie year. I agree with most experts that say Jefferson can't be the #1 option on a championship team. Al is going to have to adjust his game to be more team and ball movement friendly if he is going to be successful with the Jazz. Where I disagree with GVC is that I don't feel he has been given the chance to prove he can do it. Last year was a disaster. Right when Jefferson was starting to get it Sloan quits and D-Will gets traded. He needs another year of "Jazz" basketball to show if he can make the adjustments needed to be a part of this team. And he is going to have to start getting the "team consept" on both ends of the floor not just the offensive end.

 

[billyshelby]

Nobody thinks Al doesn't have things he needs to improve on. He absolutely has to draw more fouls. He has to be a consistent rebounder. He has to be a better passer (though I think this is made too much of myself.) But he's already very good even if he never improves these things. The fallacy is in thinking that Millsap is just as good as Al but only needs more shots to prove it. Sap can't create his own offense and every team knows that. If Al was magically gone, and we only had Sap and Kanter/Favors in the post, we'd get killed because we'd have no inside game. And if Sap had Al's job every night, his efficiency would look a lot worse.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nobody thinks Al doesn't have things he needs to improve on. He absolutely has to draw more fouls. He has to be a consistent rebounder. He has to be a better passer (though I think this is made too much of myself.) But he's already very good even if he never improves these things. The fallacy is in thinking that Millsap is just as good as Al but only needs more shots to prove it. Sap can't create his own offense and every team knows that. If Al was magically gone, and we only had Sap and Kanter/Favors in the post, we'd get killed because we'd have no inside game. And if Sap had Al's job every night, his efficiency would look a lot worse.

Millsap can create his own offense. He just can't do it as a #1 or #2 option consistently. He has a lot of moves from the elbow he can put on his opponent.

 

[Zerol]

Millsap can create his own offense. He just can't do it as a #1 or #2 option consistently. He has a lot of moves from the elbow he can put on his opponent.

True but it takes a lot more efforts for Millsap to create space for his shots, since he probably needs to take his man off the dribble or do a spin move (against much taller players too most of the time), whereas Al would only need a couple of dribbles then get off a baby hook (personally hate that being called push shot).

 

[sepanol]

I think we shouldnt argue here, is millsap or jefferson better? We can argue that forever, and maybe Big Al is a better player, but we should discuss, who is more productive and efficient, not just by stats but also considering all other variables like team chemistry and salary.

I dont say Big Al is bad, but i dont think he is worth 14 million per year, but Millsap deserves every penny he earns right now because he can accept bench role as well and never mess up the team chemistry. Big Al didnt ruin the chemistry , but we dont know how he will act once he will get benched behind Kanter and Favors in certain games next year. He was pretty frustrated in a few games last year when he didnt play much in the last quarter.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I think we shouldnt argue here, is millsap or jefferson better? We can argue that forever, and maybe Big Al is a better player, but we should discuss, who is more productive and efficient, not just by stats but also considering all other variables like team chemistry and salary.

I dont say Big Al is bad, but i dont think he is worth 14 million per year, but Millsap deserves every penny he earns right now because he can accept bench role as well and never mess up the team chemistry. Big Al didnt ruin the chemistry , but we dont know how he will act once he will get benched behind Kanter and Favors in certain games next year. He was pretty frustrated in a few games last year when he didnt play much in the last quarter.

Look, I know you probably have a serious hard-on for the guy, but unless Enes Kanter puts up 19/9 a game next season, theres no ****ing way in hell that Al Jefferson will be benched for Kanter. You seriously need to have your head examined. And the only notable game I can think of that Al Jeff was benched in the 4th was the Miracle at Miami he then responded the next night by carrying the Jazz and upsetting Orlando and taking it to Dwight. Please rid yourself of this ridiculous confirmation bias before posting here, it gets really annoying.

 

[Zerol]

I think we shouldnt argue here, is millsap or jefferson better? We can argue that forever, and maybe Big Al is a better player, but we should discuss, who is more productive and efficient, not just by stats but also considering all other variables like team chemistry and salary.

I dont say Big Al is bad, but i dont think he is worth 14 million per year, but Millsap deserves every penny he earns right now because he can accept bench role as well and never mess up the team chemistry. Big Al didnt ruin the chemistry , but we dont know how he will act once he will get benched behind Kanter and Favors in certain games next year. He was pretty frustrated in a few games last year when he didnt play much in the last quarter.

Oh boy... You almost made me cross the line to root against Kanter this coming season. But you actually see Ty benching Al in favor of him?

Bottom line I think you keep wanting Al traded instead of Millsap because you know Kanter will not start over Al who can play center while Millsap only plays PF. Get over it. Barring injury, expect Kanter to play as many minutes as Fesenko did last season. I would not be sad though if Kanter surprises me and proves me wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Look, I know you probably have a serious hard-on for the guy, but unless Enes Kanter puts up 19/9 a game next season, theres no ****ing way in hell that Al Jefferson will be benched for Kanter. You seriously need to have your head examined. And the only notable game I can think of that Al Jeff was benched in the 4th was the Miracle at Miami he then responded the next night by carrying the Jazz and upsetting Orlando and taking it to Dwight. Please rid yourself of this ridiculous confirmation bias before posting here, it gets really annoying.

Keep your G-string on, dalamon; sepanol is only dreaming (perhaps unwittingly) that the coaching staff will start to enforce effort--to the benefit of the win column, as your Orlando example so succinctly suggested, even if it means putting a "cornerstone" on the bench for a few plays.

Or quarters.

 

[GVC]

GVC thinks any efficient scorer given more shots will produce as well as Al. He doesn't understand that there aren't that many guys in the NBA who can even get their own shot. Or that having guys who can get their own shot are essential to winning. He thinks Al's numbers were produced because he was allowed to shoot, not because Al has any special ability. GVC will tell you that Millsap could produce Al's numbers with a few extra shots, but those shots are being denied to him, not because he couldn't get them.

It's amazing how you have to continually resort to lying to argue with me. I'm used to it at this point.

Now, the game of basketball is clearly far too complex for you to wrap your head around, as you seem to think getting your shot is the only thing that matters on the court (this is gonna be CJ's year...again). If Big Al continues to play as he has up to this point in his career, he won't be helping any team contend for a title. If his scoring efficiency is his best trait, then he's vastly overpaid, as he's amazingly average (or worse) scoring the basketball. Meh.

 

[GVC]

Millsap can create his own offense. He just can't do it as a #1 or #2 option consistently. He has a lot of moves from the elbow he can put on his opponent.

It's amazing that Millsap was able to score as much as he did last season with Big Al parked down low. Millsap is absolutely deadly from the free throw line extended and short corner, but, especially from the short corner, there's a lot less room for him to operate with Big Al down in the low post. Dude's legit, and while he may not be able to get contact-free shots like Al, he draws fouls through contact AND finishes at a much higher rate than Big Al. He's a much more complete offensive player (and scorer IMO).

 

[Deleted member 848]

Keep your G-string on, dalamon; sepanol is only dreaming (perhaps unwittingly) that the coaching staff will start to enforce effort--to the benefit of the win column, as your Orlando example so succinctly suggested, even if it means putting a "cornerstone" on the bench for a few plays.

Or quarters.

Look, I'm all for benching players periodically who are really a dogging it and/or giving no effort, especially on the defensive end a la the Miami game (which I know is in agreence with your oft-told opinions on this board). But we all know that Al is a MUCH better player at this point, and actually thinking of Al not starting, due to Kanter's sudden emergence is hilarious to think about. Its just that Sepanol said that "once he gets benched behind Kanter", meaning that somehow this rookie from Turkey is going to swoop in, exceed Als production on both ends of the floor, and throw Al to the bench in the process. Also all these claims about him being a great defender, and post moves and high IQ need to be put to test into the NBA before we make predictions like the ones we have seen already. I mean look, I'm happy with the pick, I really have a lot of faith in Kevin O'Connor and the rest of the Jazz organization and I trust that Kanter has a high ceiling in this league, however I really don't see him having a massive impact on the NBA from the get-go, especially seeing that he has only played a string of games recently in the past 2 years. Try being realistic about it, honestly all of this wishful thinking and hyperbolic claims about his first year impact has us looking at Kanter way more negatively than we should be.

 

[billyshelby]

It's amazing that Millsap was able to score as much as he did last season with Big Al parked down low. Millsap is absolutely deadly from the free throw line extended and short corner, but, especially from the short corner, there's a lot less room for him to operate with Big Al down in the low post. Dude's legit, and while he may not be able to get contact-free shots like Al, he draws fouls through contact AND finishes at a much higher rate than Big Al. He's a much more complete offensive player (and scorer IMO).

All the proof anyone needs you saw about 10 Jazz games last year on blurry pirated internet feeds. Milsap a much more complete offensive player than Al? Hilarious. Keep jerking off to Moneyball and I'll look forward to your analysis of boxscores next year.

 

[billyshelby]

Millsap can create his own offense. He just can't do it as a #1 or #2 option consistently. He has a lot of moves from the elbow he can put on his opponent.

Exactly my point. Yeah, Sap's not helpless. He can make a few plays. And you absolutely win with him. You just can't play through him down low because he doesn't have a post game. More importantly, you'll never see Sap draw a double team which makes us much easier to defend. That said, I think Al and Sap playing well together is going to be one of the big surprises of the NBA season next year.

 

[NUMBERICA]

All the proof anyone needs you saw about 10 Jazz games last year on blurry pirated internet feeds. Milsap a much more complete offensive player than Al? Hilarious. Keep jerking off to Moneyball and I'll look forward to your analysis of boxscores next year.

Man, getting your *** stomped routinely brings out the best (and most redundant) in you.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Ronnie Brewer = Rip Hamilton. One of Jerry's latest follies was not developing Ronnie Price.