When will Jefferson have breakout season?

[Jazz4ever]

You're missing the big point. GVC thinks any efficient scorer given more shots will produce as well as Al. He doesn't understand that there aren't that many guys in the NBA who can even get their own shot. Or that having guys who can get their own shot are essential to winning. He thinks Al's numbers were produced because he was allowed to shoot, not because Al has any special ability. GVC will tell you that Millsap could produce Al's numbers with a few extra shots, but those shots are being denied to him, not because he couldn't get them. Al averaging 21/11 and 23/11 for two years on Minny was only because he had carte blanch to shoot, not because he's extremely talented, and he hurt those teams doing that just as he'll hurt the Jazz if he does it again.

Whether Millsap's efficiency would drop is not all that relevant. We know Jefferson's efficiency is not up to par for a #1 scoring option if you want to be successful in this league. These are facts from the last six years in the league and don't see it changing. Could he be a second option? Probably, but since he's getting paid first option money he has to go I think. If Millsap was making 14 million a year I would be on his case as well but he is actually a bargain for the numbers he puts up.

 

[GVC]

You just can't play through him down low because he doesn't have a post game. More importantly, you'll never see Sap draw a double team which makes us much easier to defend.

You can't play through Al down low and expect to win either. And double teams? What has Al done with double teams? Either avoided contact or made a pass that didn't lead to an easier shot. I fail to see how that helps.

This fascination with a back-to-the-basket game and length on this site is remarkable. It's not 1984 anymore, and Big Al isn't Hakeem Olajuwon. ****.

And if Al were such a better offensive player than Millsap, it would have shown up in some stat somewhere...anywhere. Yes, Big Al scored 1.3 more points per game than Millsap, but he attempted 3.1 more field goals per game as well. He had a lower assist rate, didn't facilitate easy offense for his teammates, and didn't run the floor as well as Millsap. I understand you value style over substance - as evidenced by your annual "THIS IS CJ'S YEAR!!!!!!!!" threads - but take a step back, buddy.

I've yet to see you even try to make a compelling argument. Instead, you do nothing but insult. I at least try to do both.

 

[billyshelby]

The search function works. I've made plenty of arguments. But I love the way you pretend there are no stats to justify Al being a much better offensive player than Sap. In February, Al averaged 24/10. In March, he averaged 24/12 (I get to round up!) He shot around .540. As you didn't see any of those games, I can understand why you only want to look at the season numbers to make your points. But everyone wasting time watching games saw that Al was really struggling early in the season to grasp the offense. When it clicked for him, he was dynamite. In a thousand seasons, Sap will never put up 24/11 for two months. Sap is still a very good player, and he and Al can be a great tandem on the floor, but Sap isn't in Al's league offensively.

 

[orangello]

Exactly my point. Yeah, Sap's not helpless. He can make a few plays. And you absolutely win with him. You just can't play through him down low because he doesn't have a post game. More importantly, you'll never see Sap draw a double team which makes us much easier to defend. That said, I think Al and Sap playing well together is going to be one of the big surprises of the NBA season next year.

They did not play very well together at all. I guess you might have missed most of the season.

 

[orangello]

The search function works. I've made plenty of arguments. But I love the way you pretend there are no stats to justify Al being a much better offensive player than Sap. In February, Al averaged 24/10. In March, he averaged 24/12 (I get to round up!) He shot around .540. As you didn't see any of those games, I can understand why you only want to look at the season numbers to make your points. But everyone wasting time watching games saw that Al was really struggling early in the season to grasp the offense. When it clicked for him, he was dynamite. In a thousand seasons, Sap will never put up 24/11 for two months. Sap is still a very good player, and he and Al can be a great tandem on the floor, but Sap isn't in Al's league offensively.

Can you remind me what Utahs record was in the months of February and March? We must have been dominating teams if Big Al was putting up these kinds of numbers!!!

 

[prodigy]

One gripe I would like to point out, simply because I can and I find this annoying....

Look. I love that the Turks have come to share in the collective good and excitment that Kanter brings to this board and the Jazz. But ****, I'm tired of listening to the obvious jabs at our existing bigs in an attempt to somehow make room for Kanter. Like we should scrap all of our bigmen and start Kanter. Please mother*******. Kanter is good, and will perhaps be really good, but the kid needs to pay his dues and prove himself. Until then, Al and Sal aren't going anywhere. And sure as **** Kanter is not taking one of their spots until he shows he can play in the NBA. I'm excited about Kanter, but this whole "Big Al sucks, make room for Kanter" bull**** has got to stop. It's stupid and annoying as ****.

I don't really pay attention to it, but some of these Kanter homers are hysterical

I think i've seen him compared to every NBA big superstar present and past now, Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley, etc...I don't know how good Kanter will become but imagine more people would have been higher on him in a weak draft if he was as good as people claim. Draft Express had him as their 11th best draft prospect for this draft, not saying they are right, i'm willing to give Kanter a chance but all those guys at DE do is look at prospects.

 

[billyshelby]

They did not play very well together at all. I guess you might have missed most of the season.

Little advice. Print my original post out. Give it to your mom. Tell her to read it to you. Slowly.

 

[The Thriller]

Kanter, the next Malone? Dirk? Shaq?

I think he should strive to be the next Udonis Haslem or Luis Scola.

Lets start with more realistic expectations folks.

 

[sepanol]

Look, I know you probably have a serious hard-on for the guy, but unless Enes Kanter puts up 19/9 a game next season, theres no ****ing way in hell that Al Jefferson will be benched for Kanter. You seriously need to have your head examined. And the only notable game I can think of that Al Jeff was benched in the 4th was the Miracle at Miami he then responded the next night by carrying the Jazz and upsetting Orlando and taking it to Dwight. Please rid yourself of this ridiculous confirmation bias before posting here, it gets really annoying.

I told in certain games, are you sure english is your main language? I dont think im very good in english but it was pretty clear. Or do you expect to see Big Al getting 40 mins every game ?

I think you are the one with bias here, i wrote a pretty sensible post and there was no bias against Big Al , i even told he maybe slightly better than Millsap even though he is my favourite player in the roster right now. And it is not up to you to decide how i will write my posts, i can write with bias too, then Big Al should put a great performance and shut me up, but i have never seen that so far, there was always something missing even in the games he put more than 30 points

 

[sepanol]

Oh boy... You almost made me cross the line to root against Kanter this coming season. But you actually see Ty benching Al in favor of him?

Bottom line I think you keep wanting Al traded instead of Millsap because you know Kanter will not start over Al who can play center while Millsap only plays PF. Get over it. Barring injury, expect Kanter to play as many minutes as Fesenko did last season. I would not be sad though if Kanter surprises me and proves me wrong, but I doubt it.

Millsap is getting 7 million per year and deserves every cent he gets. You guys should be dreaming to be so high on Big Al. I dont see much side in the game that Big Al is better than Millsap. Or do you rate players on their salaries? He gets 14 million so he should be soooo good right? Then Kirilenko should be Lebron.

 

[sepanol]

Look, I'm all for benching players periodically who are really a dogging it and/or giving no effort, especially on the defensive end a la the Miami game (which I know is in agreence with your oft-told opinions on this board). But we all know that Al is a MUCH better player at this point, and actually thinking of Al not starting, due to Kanter's sudden emergence is hilarious to think about. Its just that Sepanol said that "once he gets benched behind Kanter", meaning that somehow this rookie from Turkey is going to swoop in, exceed Als production on both ends of the floor, and throw Al to the bench in the process. Also all these claims about him being a great defender, and post moves and high IQ need to be put to test into the NBA before we make predictions like the ones we have seen already. I mean look, I'm happy with the pick, I really have a lot of faith in Kevin O'Connor and the rest of the Jazz organization and I trust that Kanter has a high ceiling in this league, however I really don't see him having a massive impact on the NBA from the get-go, especially seeing that he has only played a string of games recently in the past 2 years. Try being realistic about it, honestly all of this wishful thinking and hyperbolic claims about his first year impact has us looking at Kanter way more negatively than we should be.

I think the logic is missing in your post. You write well but you miss the words i say and it manipulates the whole meaning of the sentence. I never told Kanter will bench Jefferson and get more mins, i told he will bench in certain games, like Favors did in the late part of the last season. Remember how happy was Big Al when he didnt get any min in last quarter because Favors played really well. (i dont remember which game was it)

I dont even discuss the basketball here, i am just talking about logic and psychology. I say that Big Al doesnt give me the feeling that he will be flexible when he will sit last quarter on the bench for some games depending on other players performance. I think he will mess up the team chemistry.

And there is no way in the hell that we have tostart the player who is better right now. If you wanna win 2-3 more games this year , well do that, but that makes no sense. The young core of the team is pretty clear, Favors-Kanter-Hayward. So you should start these guys right now and who cares if we will not make playoffs 1-2 years if this team will grow faster and we will be contenders in 3-4 years. Also for me it is much smarter to trade Big Al right now (if we will get a good deal) instead of losing him after 2 years for nothing.

As much as i am totally against your illogical ideas and missing assumptions, there is some part that i give you credit (even though you didnt tell it directly)

Well Kanter is unknown and lets say it is a risk that he will be a complete bust. So in that case, it may be better to keep Big Al and see how Kanter will adapt to this league.
But if there was such a big risk, KOC wouldnt drafted him already as 3rd pick.

 

[sepanol]

Whether Millsap's efficiency would drop is not all that relevant. We know Jefferson's efficiency is not up to par for a #1 scoring option if you want to be successful in this league. These are facts from the last six years in the league and don't see it changing. Could he be a second option? Probably, but since he's getting paid first option money he has to go I think. If Millsap was making 14 million a year I would be on his case as well but he is actually a bargain for the numbers he puts up.

I totally agree

 

[sepanol]

I don't really pay attention to it, but some of these Kanter homers are hysterical

I think i've seen him compared to every NBA big superstar present and past now, Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley, etc...I don't know how good Kanter will become but imagine more people would have been higher on him in a weak draft if he was as good as people claim. Draft Express had him as their 11th best draft prospect for this draft, not saying they are right, i'm willing to give Kanter a chance but all those guys at DE do is look at prospects.

11th when? Before 4 players who would go in top 10 declared they will not attend the draft?
And calipari told he should be picked as number 1st pick without mentioning about Knight.
You should both the good and bad information and compare them if you want to be just.

And lets look at the fact, he is the 3rd pick and in the last 10 years, i havent seen any bust as a third pick except morrison. Maybe we can say dunleavy shouldnt have been 3rd but he is not a bust. So it is a much bigger possibility that Kanter will be a very good player than he should be as bad as people are hardly willing to give him chance.

 

[sepanol]

Last 10 years 3rd draft picks:

2001- Gasol
2002- Dunleavy
2003- Carmelo
2004- Ben Gordon
2005- Deron
2006- Morrison
2007- Al Horford
2008- Mayo
2009- Harden
2010- Favors
2011- Kanter

Except Morrison i dont see a bust here, which means Kanter will much probably be a very good player. Well if he will be that bad as some people anticipates or have bias against, we should be really unlucky and with such a bad luck there is no way in the hell that we are gonna win a championship. And if he will be that bad, i promise not just in this site but i will never write in anywhere else about basketball

 

[Zerol]

Millsap is getting 7 million per year and deserves every cent he gets. You guys should be dreaming to be so high on Big Al. I dont see much side in the game that Big Al is better than Millsap. Or do you rate players on their salaries? He gets 14 million so he should be soooo good right? Then Kirilenko should be Lebron.

I never brought salaries into the conversation. You did.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Last 10 years 3rd draft picks:

2001- Gasol
2002- Dunleavy
2003- Carmelo
2004- Ben Gordon
2005- Deron
2006- Morrison
2007- Al Horford
2008- Mayo
2009- Harden
2010- Favors
2011- Kanter

Except Morrison i dont see a bust here, which means Kanter will much probably be a very good player. Well if he will be that bad as some people anticipates or have bias against, we should be really unlucky and with such a bad luck there is no way in the hell that we are gonna win a championship. And if he will be that bad, i promise not just in this site but i will never write in anywhere else about basketball

Dunleavy could definitely be considered a bust. So many injuries. Mayo and Gordon could also be considered bust because they both suck relative to expectations.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Last 10 years 3rd draft picks:

2001- Gasol
2002- Dunleavy
2003- Carmelo
2004- Ben Gordon
2005- Deron
2006- Morrison
2007- Al Horford
2008- Mayo
2009- Harden
2010- Favors
2011- Kanter

Except Morrison i dont see a bust here, which means Kanter will much probably be a very good player. Well if he will be that bad as some people anticipates or have bias against, we should be really unlucky and with such a bad luck there is no way in the hell that we are gonna win a championship. And if he will be that bad, i promise not just in this site but i will never write in anywhere else about basketball

So Kanter is guaranteed not a bust, simply out of superstition? Because really, thats all I am gathering when you type off a list of examples of 3rd overall picks. Anyone who thinks 3rd overall picks legitimately have a lesser chance of busting than the 1st, 2nd or 4th needs a reality check.

 

[sepanol]

So Kanter is guaranteed not a bust, simply out of superstition? Because really, thats all I am gathering when you type off a list of examples of 3rd overall picks. Anyone who thinks 3rd overall picks legitimately have a lesser chance of busting than the 1st, 2nd or 4th needs a reality check.

I dont see a complete bust here except dunleavy, not all players are superstars but most of them are good. Would you be not happy if Kanter turns out to be something like Al Horford?

Well actually i wouldnt because i expect much more from him, but just trying to show people 3rd picks are not that bad as they rate Kanter. Kanter has as much chance for being a bust as Favors.

 

[Zerol]

I dont see a complete bust here except dunleavy, not all players are superstars but most of them are good. Would you be not happy if Kanter turns out to be something like Al Horford?

Well actually i wouldnt because i expect much more from him, but just trying to show people 3rd picks are not that bad as they rate Kanter. Kanter has as much chance for being a bust as Favors.

I assume you mean Adam Morrison and Dunleavy.

Favors played one season in the NBA and showed promise. That alone makes him much less likely to be a bust than Kanter.

 

[sepanol]

I assume you mean Adam Morrison and Dunleavy.

Favors played one season in the NBA and showed promise. That alone makes him much less likely to be a bust than Kanter.

Thats what im trying to say, Kanter has that very small chance for being a bust as Favors do.

(yes right about morrison and dunleavy)