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When will the next W be?

I agree with GVC on that one.
Even though chosen general direction and each small step taken in its realisation are justifiable, all in all currently we are in a worse position to become contenders than 2012 team. I am pretty sure that this was calculated risk and we may very well be on track as planned but as a gambler the Jazz management need to rely more and more on hitting eluding jackpot instead of building up using proven and reliable strategy with predictable outcome.
 
zbone said:
the Jazz management need to rely more and more on hitting eluding jackpot instead of building up using proven and reliable strategy with predictable outcome.
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Lol. I'm still waiting to hear how we rebuild without getting star players.
 
I mean really who and why gives a flying *****? I’m all for rooting for the win and caring while I’m watching the games. Its tiring though to see people get on here and act like the Jazz loosing is an attack on them personally. Its entertainment, It’s not your high school basketball career. It’s entertainment.

The great thing about the NBA is there are 29 other teams. So if your so disgusted that you want to becoming a band Wagoner then go ahead and do it, Stop b!tching. It’s not doing any good for you or anyone else. Do you really think the nice ladies and gentlemen whose jobs it is to put together winning teams are giving less effort than you? It’s not personal, its entertainment.

Yes, our team is in a few down years. Yes, they are not "dominate" when playing the most elite players, in the most elite league in the world. Please shut up though. It’s not your life, it’s your hobby.

You’re not paying to see the Jazz win. That’s the mistake and the silly arrogance that you’re confused with. Your paying to have any NBA team play in your city. You’re paying to see the best basketball players in the world come through your home town 41 times a year. That’s what you’re paying for. Not this pampered idea that just because you claim this team as your favorite they have to win more games then they lose. Please just enjoy the season.

The constant complaining about how bad things are is childish. Although I truly hope that you live in the world where the Utah Jazz having a hard season is the overcoming hardship in your life. I truly do, that makes it a possibility for the rest of us. Please though give it a break. It you continue down this "give me a championship now" path you’re only going to be very disappointed. I’m sorry to say it friend but we probably never will.

Lastly please leave the self-righteous rhetoric to those who are paid to do it because frankly it’s more than old; it’s already dead, enjoy the team or stop claiming to be a fan. Being a fan is like being married. It’s for "Better or worse."
 
JoelHodgeJr said:
It you continue down this "give me a championship now" path you’re only going to be very disappointed.
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To be fair though, next year was supposed to be the 'chip. This year was supposed to be second round exit in 7 games and all of our losses are by 1 point so our guys never get discouraged. Seemed like a simple plan.
 
I see where you coming from Freak, but that’s propaganda it’s not the truth. If it was the FO would have put together a bench who’s greatest contributors were more than a first year long term project (although I personally believe in Dante). Or a second year long term project in Gobert. We were never supposed to win this year. We were suppose to do exactly as we are doing and every other team that built though the draft (see: Wizards, Warriors, Raptors, Thunder), and loose for two too four years. If you have luck the process is shortened, if you don’t then it could take ten (see: Wizards, Raptors and Warriors.)

This is a process and it doesn’t happen year two of the rebuild.
 
JoelHodgeJr said:
I see where you coming from Freak, but that’s propaganda it’s not the truth. If it was the FO would have put together a bench who’s greatest contributors were more than a first year long term project (although I personally believe in Dante). Or a second year long term project in Gobert. We were never supposed to win this year. We were suppose to do exactly as we are doing and every other team that built though the draft (see: Wizards, Warriors, Raptors, Thunder), and loose for two too four years. If you have luck the process is shortened, if you don’t then it could take ten (see: Wizards, Raptors and Warriors.)

This is a process and it doesn’t happen year two of the rebuild.
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Absolutely. Our big chance to significantly shorten our rebuild came during the lockout year, but the decision was made to try and scrape into the playoffs. Unfortunately, making the playoffs prevented us from trading Al/Sap the next year as well, because we thought we might scrape in again. At that point, I think most reasonable fans could see the writing on the wall that we were most likely looking at several years of rebuilding.
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I have no doubt that some mistakes have been made, but nothing even comes close to the golden opportunity we missed during the lockout.
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I can't even begin to imagine where we'd be if we had pulled off Al for Bogut before GS snagged him. That would have been a walk off grand slam in our rebuild. Then again, we would have missed out on the fantastic experience from 4 losses to the spurs, so it's kinda hard to tell which one had more value in team building. uhg.
 
GVC said:
1. By winner I mean legitimate contender. You seem to have missed the point of all my posts on this topic...repeatedly. Go ahead and read them.

Is the team in a better position to build a contender today than it was when DL took over? Since DL took over, he let his best players (still to date) go for nothing, let other NBA rotation players leave for nothing, made a few trades (exclusively in the summer) that seem to have added very little value, and signed what were cheap, controllable lottery picks to bloated contracts. The assets on the team are losing value, the team has no stars, and DL continues to do nothing October through June. It's not a good sign.

2. OKC made a mistake trading Harden. Still, at least they got something for him.

3. I'd love a response to my post in the other thread.
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Then, yes. I'd say the Jazz are in better position to build a contender now than they were in 2012. A team with a "Big 3" of Hayward and any two of Jefferson, Millsap and Favors was NEVER going to contend.

Hayward was a cheap, controllable lottery pick? DL didn't sign Gordon to a bloated contract. He MATCHED a contract offer. There's a difference. The two sides couldn't agree on a deal and both decided to let it wait. Hayward had a horrible season, but Charlotte signed him to the max, regardless. I don't think ANY of us saw that coming. I'll bet you and others would have been calling for Lindsey's hide had Gordon even received "Favors' money" prior to the season. There most certainly would have been cries, after his terrible season, that no one would have offered even $8M for Gordon, so why didn't DL wait? As for Favors, that deal is looking very good. And Burks? Probably market value given that the cap is going way up over the next few seasons (doubt they build the entire new TV deal into one massive increase).

What have we received for Jefferson and Millsap thus far? Hood and likely the difference between someone like Saric, Warren, or McBuckets and Exum. That was the tradeoff for being really bad last season or getting mid-tier vets and being like Phoenix. We also get a lot of salary cap this off-season. You're the expert on this, but according to shamsports, we'll be at just over $49M if we offer Kanter the QO. Add in $4M-$5M for holds (draft picks and roster filler). Not sure what the cap will be. Perhaps $68M? So nearly a max slot with Kanter and $20M+ if Jazz don't offer or withdraw the QO at some point.

Teams simply can't contend in this league without superstars: Jefferson, Millsap, Favors are NOT superstars. Neither is Hayward, although his overall game places him - potentially - just a tier below. Can Utah trade for or sign a superstar in free agency? I seriously doubt that. So the only hope is to draft one. Utah missed on Kanter. Drafted Trey #9 in an incredibly bad draft year. Their best shot at building an EVENTUAL contender was/is to get a franchise player last season and in the upcoming draft. And to do that, Utah had to pursue their current path: keep the youngsters they feel will contribute to the team long-term and resist signing band-aids so they can finish in the top half of the lottery, where they MIGHT get all-star quality talent. Not a guarantee , of course (cough, Burke, cough Kanter), but it is MUCH, MUCH harder to do as that draft position drops, especially back in the 12-14 range where the team landed after missing the playoffs with their veteran heavy team of Jefferson, Miilsap, Carroll, Foye and Mo Willaims. Keeping that team (and still needing to pay the youngsters after their rookie deals expired) was a) going to be impossible financially and b) had already shown it would not contend.
 
^
Follow up:
As I've said a few times, I think the draft determines the course of free agency. I hope the Jazz draft a big and do NOT give Kanter the QO. With $20M in hand, make a run at any number of FA's, including Matthews, Carroll, Danny Green. Even look at RFA's that other teams may not be able to keep going forward and arrange a trade. Just imagine what the team would look like with another wing to start alongside Hayward and Burks coming off the bench. Now replace Burke with a PG who can shoot and defend a little bit (until Exum is ready to take over). And give the Jazz another big to either provide defensive presence or extend the floor to the 3PT line. Jazz, thanks to having a high draft pick and ample cap space, can add those 3 during the next 9 months.

Very little usually gets done at the deadline. Teams just don't have to dump contracts like they used to. Only a few teams are still over the luxury tax and most won't be next season due to the rising cap and expiring contracts. So I won't be too surprised to see few trades. There usually aren't.
 
This is a little frustrating. You continue to address arguments I haven't made. More importantly, you've failed to recognize the internal inconsistency of your argument. Fortunately, you've made even stronger statements than freak, so it should be easier to address what you've said.

Stifle Tower said:
Then, yes. I'd say the Jazz are in better position to build a contender now than they were in 2012. A team with a "Big 3" of Hayward and any two of Jefferson, Millsap and Favors was NEVER going to contend.
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Feel free to quote the post where I said otherwise.

Stifle Tower said:
Hayward was a cheap, controllable lottery pick? DL didn't sign Gordon to a bloated contract. He MATCHED a contract offer. There's a difference. The two sides couldn't agree on a deal and both decided to let it wait. Hayward had a horrible season, but Charlotte signed him to the max, regardless. I don't think ANY of us saw that coming. I'll bet you and others would have been calling for Lindsey's hide had Gordon even received "Favors' money" prior to the season. There most certainly would have been cries, after his terrible season, that no one would have offered even $8M for Gordon, so why didn't DL wait? As for Favors, that deal is looking very good. And Burks? Probably market value given that the cap is going way up over the next few seasons (doubt they build the entire new TV deal into one massive increase).
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So the GM should only make moves if and when they're palatable to the fanbase and/or he's forced into them? I'd rather have a GM who's forward looking, and is willing to make the right moves even when they're unpopular. There are a couple other juicy bits in this section that I'll return to later.

Stifle Tower said:
What have we received for Jefferson and Millsap thus far? Hood and likely the difference between someone like Saric, Warren, or McBuckets and Exum. That was the tradeoff for being really bad last season or getting mid-tier vets and being like Phoenix. We also get a lot of salary cap this off-season. You're the expert on this, but according to shamsports, we'll be at just over $49M if we offer Kanter the QO. Add in $4M-$5M for holds (draft picks and roster filler). Not sure what the cap will be. Perhaps $68M? So nearly a max slot with Kanter and $20M+ if Jazz don't offer or withdraw the QO at some point.
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The Jazz received nothing for Al and Millsap. The Jazz had two full seasons after Jerry quit and Deron was traded to try to get something for Al and/or Paul. Instead, KOC and DL did nothing. Again, I'll return to this in a second.

Stifle Tower said:
Teams simply can't contend in this league without superstars: Jefferson, Millsap, Favors are NOT superstars. Neither is Hayward, although his overall game places him - potentially - just a tier below. Can Utah trade for or sign a superstar in free agency? I seriously doubt that. So the only hope is to draft one. Utah missed on Kanter. Drafted Trey #9 in an incredibly bad draft year. Their best shot at building an EVENTUAL contender was/is to get a franchise player last season and in the upcoming draft. And to do that, Utah had to pursue their current path: keep the youngsters they feel will contribute to the team long-term and resist signing band-aids so they can finish in the top half of the lottery, where they MIGHT get all-star quality talent. Not a guarantee , of course (cough, Burke, cough Kanter), but it is MUCH, MUCH harder to do as that draft position drops, especially back in the 12-14 range where the team landed after missing the playoffs with their veteran heavy team of Jefferson, Miilsap, Carroll, Foye and Mo Willaims. Keeping that team (and still needing to pay the youngsters after their rookie deals expired) was a) going to be impossible financially and b) had already shown it would not contend.
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This is the good part:

Let's assume I agree with your assertions that teams can't contend without superstars, that Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter aren't ever going to be superstars, and that the Jazz can't acquire a superstar through either trade or free agency. Effectively, if I understand correctly, you're arguing that the only thing that matters is building a contender, and the only way to build a contender is to land a superstar in the draft.

If that's the case, what's the point in signing young players who make the team better to bloated contracts that reduce their trade value (for more picks)?

Once again, if that's the case, what's the point in signing young players who make the team better to bloated contracts that reduce their trade value (for more picks)?

You seem to be arguing that it's a good idea to move your picks from the 12-16 range to the 5-10 range, but not a good idea to move picks from the 5-10 range to the 1-3 range.

Three key questions follow from the above:

1. Do Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter improve the team relative to dleague and other marginal players?

2. Which of Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter haven't peaked in terms of picks they can net the Jazz in a trade?

3. Isn't it far more likely to find a superstar in the 1-3 range than the 5-10 range?


I think those four are better than marginal players, and thus improve the Jazz record, which will hurt the Jazz's draft position. I think those players could have been traded for more before they signed their contracts than now (Favors may be the exception). It's absolutely far more likely to find a superstar in the 1-3 range than in the 5-10 range.

With all that said, you should be arguing that the Jazz should have unloaded Al, Millsap, Gordo, Burks, Favors and Kanter when the return, in terms of picks and hurting the Jazz record, was peaking. Unfortunately, the Jazz haven't landed a top-3 pick since Deron was traded, and probably won't get one this year. Instead, DL/the FO/ownership has opted for half measures, resigning players who improve the team but will never lead the team to a championship to large contracts. It's a worse plan than crafting competitive teams that top out at ~50 wins.
 
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GVC said:
Instead, DL/the FO/ownership has opted for half measures, resigning players who improve the team but will never lead the team to a championship to large contracts. It's a worse plan than crafting competitive teams that top out at ~50 wins.
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Someone in the Jazz brain trust still thinks that one of Gordo/Favs/Burks will turn into a legitimate All-Star. I can't imagine that they would have executed those contracts without that thought.

The biggest beef I have is not that they decided to reset from the "competitive but never great" days, but that we let major assets walk without getting anything in return. I'm still not sure how played out. Did DL try to trade them but it fell through? Did they think they could get them back at a discount? Millsap and Big Al were borderline All-Stars and they left without ANYTHING in return. We couldn't get get a late 1st rounder by trading these guys? Also, letting Korver walk was a major mistake. The dude is shooting over 55% from 3. How much better would we be with him in the starting lineup instead of Burks or Hood? I think we undervalue how much a shooter like that can help the rest of the offense without even touching the ball.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
Someone in the Jazz brain trust still thinks that one of Gordo/Favs/Burks will turn into a legitimate All-Star.
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I agree.

And I think there is a decent chance still. (I'm a homer though)
 
I'd love moving a pick into the #1-#3 range. And, if the rumors were true, the Jazz tried to do that (remember the rumors about Favors and/or Burks and other pieces). KOC also tried moving up when he drafted Hayward but said it was too expensive.

As for your "nothing" for Al and Millsap, there were reports those players were shopped. Trading a guy making Big Al's salary is complicated. I did an extensive analysis of who might be available and to what teams. Basically came down to Phoenix, NY (Amare) and just 1 or 2 others, some of which would have resulted in taking on the extra year of a contract. I discounted non-playoff teams since he was going to be an UFA. Simply no reason to acquire him for any decent assets for those teams. And I already addressed Millsap in an earlier post. There was a faction, led by KOC and the Millers that stilll wanted to "re-tool" by signing Paul, DeMarre and likely Foye (MO and Big Al were goners). It has been widely discussed and reported that talks were ongoing with Paul, and coincidentally, DMC and Foye were unsigned and not linked to anyone until the GS deal went down.

We can argue points all we want. This is my take.

1. When KOC was in charge, he was never in favor of a "rebuild" via the draft. He tried several times to sign veteran FA's (I remember him going after Maggette, Terry, etc.) until he finally was able to land Boozer and Memo. Then he gets San Antonio-style lucky when the Jazz have injuries before the Bogut/CP3/Deron. Kudos to KOC for trading up when the Jazz dropped in the lottery.

2. After finally realizing the team had fatal flaws (most notably Boozer), KOC decides to let him leave. Jazz commit to Millsap and land in the luxury tax for one year. Not wanting to be there again, the Jazz let Boozer walk and do not take back longer-term salaries. They lose Matthews because his $6M offer would have been a $9M payout (luxury tax). Of course, part of this is due to AK's exorbitant salary, which, if we believe reports, KOC could have gotten rid of at least 2x (for Marion and one other rumored deal). Those trades were shot down by Larry H.

3. DL was brought on board but not given full power right away. He preached "rebuilding" and "not skipping steps." But, as mentioned, there was still an internal divide over going completely young or re-signing some of the veterans, including Millsap and Carroll. The assets GS was willing to give up, along with the promise of having a high draft pick in what was seen as an EPIC draft, swung the argument.

4. You can certainly argue for going the Philly route. Trade Hayward, Favors and Kanter for picks. I believe Hayward and Favors are at their best value right now. Kanter had more value a couple of season ago. Maybe you're right Hayward had more value as a RFA last season. A trade would have been easier to make in terms of matching salaries. I don't see too many trades that don't have top-3 protection, though. So a trade involving any of those guys probably needs to be a deal to move up. Again, DL reportedly tried to do that this past draft. Someone got cold feet and the denials were issued.

5. Or, what I think DL has done/is doing is to believe he can add a franchise player in the top half of either the 2014 or 2015 draft by having a young team with no bench. And also having cap space to go after one more player. And he can do that without completely devastating the team. MAYBE Utah could have finished 4th (ahead of Orlando) last year by trading their vets (would have been almost impossible to out-tank Milwaukee and Philly. And, of course, Cleveland beat the odds again and landed the top pick in the drawing. But finishing 4th would have likely been the same pick: Exum. This season? Yes, Jazz probably could be in the tank race for Towns/Okafor by dumping Favors and Hayward for picks.
 
GVC said:
So the GM should only make moves if and when they're palatable to the fanbase and/or he's forced into them? I'd rather have a GM who's forward looking, and is willing to make the right moves even when they're unpopular. There are a couple other juicy bits in this section that I'll return to later.
Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment and in general believe that strong risky moves ahead of the curve is the way to go for rebuilding franchises. Look at what Lacob and Myers have done with the Warriors! They signed Curry on a relatively bad contract at the time(because he just had 2 serious injuries). Now this contract is the best contract in basketball. They were booed at the Mullins jersey retirement after they traded Monta Ellis. How did that one turn out? Now they have a top 5 center in the league. They drafted a top 3 SG in the league... and after a successful year last year... they parted ways with their coach when they felt tensions in the locker room and put in charge a rookie coach.

The Jazz received nothing for Al and Millsap. The Jazz had two full seasons after Jerry quit and Deron was traded to try to get something for Al and/or Paul. Instead, KOC and DL did nothing. Again, I'll return to this in a second.
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Absolutely. This was one of the stupidest moves we could have made. Wait on them to fight for the 8th seed with no outlook at ever contending and letting their contracts just run out and letting them go for nothing. That was stupid.(and BTW, as some old threads here show - most people were for doing exactly that - go for the 8th seed and don't care about losing assets or losing opportunity to gain assets in the long run).

This is the good part:

Let's assume I agree with your assertions that teams can't contend without superstars, that Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter aren't ever going to be superstars, and that the Jazz can't acquire a superstar through either trade or free agency. Effectively, if I understand correctly, you're arguing that the only thing that matters is building a contender, and the only way to build a contender is to land a superstar in the draft.

If that's the case, what's the point in signing young players who make the team better to bloated contracts that reduce their trade value (for more picks)?

Once again, if that's the case, what's the point in signing young players who make the team better to bloated contracts that reduce their trade value (for more picks)?
Click to expand...

The point is that you won't be losing them for nothing. Would you rather we let Gordon go, or matched? Would you rather sign Favors to 12m/year or let him go? Or traded them? What I would guess is that the FO have determined that those are long-term pieces(maybe they believe some of them have all-star potential too) for the team and they were willing to sign them to whatever contract the market or negotiations determine. I think they are not sold on Enes as a long term prospect in Utah and that's the reason they didn't sign him. That's pretty much the only reason we sign new contracts(especially the big ones) - because we have determined that we want those players in the long run and we don't want to lose them(or have to pay more in RFA). When a team signs a 4 year deal they are not signing it so they can trade the guy, they are signing him so they can keep him. If you want to trade somebody, you trade them before the time for signing new contracts comes. In other words, if you don't want to sign Burks to 10 mil, Favors to 12 and Gordon to 15, you either let them go for free, or trade them before their contract is up. How much do you think we could get for expiring Gordon, Burks and Favors? Throw in wild guesses. Because according to some sources(don't know if true or not) #5 + Favors (+ Burks?) were not enough for #1 or #2 this year...

You seem to be arguing that it's a good idea to move your picks from the 12-16 range to the 5-10 range, but not a good idea to move picks from the 5-10 range to the 1-3 range.

Three key questions follow from the above:

1. Do Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter improve the team relative to dleague and other marginal players?

2. Which of Gordo, Favs, Burks and Kanter haven't peaked in terms of picks they can net the Jazz in a trade?

3. Isn't it far more likely to find a superstar in the 1-3 range than the 5-10 range?


I think those four are better than marginal players, and thus improve the Jazz record, which will hurt the Jazz's draft position. I think those players could have been traded for more before they signed their contracts than now (Favors may be the exception). It's absolutely far more likely to find a superstar in the 1-3 range than in the 5-10 range.
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Of course it's more likely to find the star in 1-3 picks. But along with looking for that star we should be gathering pieces to surround that star. Unless you want to go the Philly's way? I don't know... I wonder. Would the Jazz fans be willing to go the Philly's way? Do you like their team with their possibilities and structure more than ours? Would you rather have Favors+Gordon+Burks+Exum+whatever pick we get this year, or Embiid, Noel, MCW, Saric + whatever pick they get this year? Would you be willing to go through several season with practically non-NBA-level basketball 10-15 wins? And at what level is your confidence that this would yield any success?

With all that said, you should be arguing that the Jazz should have unloaded Al, Millsap, Gordo, Burks, Favors and Kanter when the return, in terms of picks and hurting the Jazz record, was peaking. Unfortunately, the Jazz haven't landed a top-3 pick since Deron was traded, and probably won't get one this year. Instead, DL/the FO/ownership has opted for half measures, resigning players who improve the team but will never lead the team to a championship to large contracts. It's a worse plan than crafting competitive teams that top out at ~50 wins.
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That's the cost-benefit analysis you have to run. To me the choices are really two - multi-season-tank(philly style) and continuous rebuild(Jazz style)

Philly style:
+Get a several top 3 level picks, greater chance for a superstar
+Get some more first round picks by getting rid off any slightly valuable player(Jrue Holiday, Thad Young) who might win you some games
+Sell your cap space for other picks(most likely seconds and late firsts)
-You don't keep the pieces that might help your team be complete once you get your superstar(the Thad Youngs and Jrue Holidays of the world)
-Establish losing culture
-Alienate and frustrate fanbase
-Damage the reputation of the team

Utah style:
+Get 4-5 lottery picks, some might be in the top 5, but most likely none will be top 3. Less of a chance to land a superstar than "Philly style"
+You keep your young players who have shown promise even if they are not superstars(Favors, Burks) and keep developing them into the best players they can be so when you get your superstar, he will have good team around him to play with
+Accumulate assets through selling your capspace(mostly late firsts and second rounders)
-Less of a chance to land a super star than Philly-style, more of a chance for botched rebuild.
-Still frustrate the fanbase, but nowhere near the levels of a Philly.

BTW, even though I agree that 1-3 picks are more likely to get you a superstar, it is by no means a given and I think it is much closer than a lot of people would think.

Atlanta - no superstar
Boston - Rajon Rondo (#21)
Brooklyn - Deron Williams(#3), Kevin Garnet(#5), ?Joe Johnson(#10)?
Charlotte - no superstar
Chicago - Derrick Rose(#1), Pau Gasol(#3)
Cleveland - Kyrie Irving(#1), Kevin Love(#5), LeBron James(#1)
Dallas - Dirk Nowitzki(#9)
Denver - no superstar
Detroit - no superstar
Golden State-Steph Curry(#7), ?Klay Thompson(#9)?
Houston - Dwight Howard(#1), James Harden(#3)
Indiana - Paul George(#10)
L.A. Clippers- Blake Griffin(#1), Chris Paul(#4)
L.A. Lakers - Kobe Bryant (#13)
Memphis - Marc Gasol(#48), Vince Carter(#5), Zach Randolph(#19)
Miami - Dwayne Wade(#5), Chris Bosh(#4)
Milwaukee - no superstar
Minnesota - no superstar
New Orleans- Anthony Davis(#1)
New York - Carmelo Anthony(#3), Amare Stoudemire(#9)
Oklahoma City- Kevin Durant(#2), Russell Westbrook(#5)
Orlando - no superstar
Philadelphia - no superstar
Phoenix - no superstar
Portland - LeMarcus Aldrige(#2), Damian Lillard(#6)
Sacramento - DeMarcus Cousins(#5)
San Antonio - Tim Duncan(#1), Tony Parker(#28)
Toronto - DeMar DeRozan(#9)
Utah - no superstar
Washington - John Wall(#1), Paul Pierce(#10)

You can probably argue with some names here and say they are not superstars, but in general I selected them by either multiple allstar appearances or for being up and coming stars and having a single all-star appearance. I might have missed some, but you get my point - there are 36 "superstars" in the league in my list. Here's the distribution by picks:
1-3: 14
4-6: 9
7-10: 8
11-30: 4
31-60: 1

Much closer around the top than one might have thought.
 
Thansk, stitches.
Rondo, IMO is a fringe franchise player. I might even put him on par with this year's Hayward. To me a franchise player should be elite at a few things but have no major weaknesses. Sure he's a 10/10 player, but his lack of outside shooting is a HUGE weakness in today's game. Likely a reason no one is selling the farm to get him via trade.

Boston rebuild is about like Utah's. They've kept or traded for some decent young talent, but are still in top-10 lottery range. So is Detroit. There are a lot of teams following that same model. Only Philly tried the trade everyone and try to corner the market on 2nd-round picks strategy.
 
No one wants Rondo that bad because he is mostly just a stat stuffer who needs to be on the right team. Trading a lot of pieces to get Rondo kind of ruins the point of getting Rondo, which is to make your existing players look better.
 
stitches said:
I agree with the sentiment and in general believe that strong risky moves ahead of the curve is the way to go for rebuilding franchises. Look at what Lacob and Myers have done with the Warriors! They signed Curry on a relatively bad contract at the time(because he just had 2 serious injuries). Now this contract is the best contract in basketball. They were booed at the Mullins jersey retirement after they traded Monta Ellis. How did that one turn out? Now they have a top 5 center in the league. They drafted a top 3 SG in the league... and after a successful year last year... they parted ways with their coach when they felt tensions in the locker room and put in charge a rookie coach.
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With all the griping and complaining about GS and their methods, their FO has to be considered one of the best in the league right now. I basically got hammered on this board for my opinion that they were operating smarter than Utah at the time. The NBA really is survival of the fittest, and all this idealism of nobility in building a team eventually just equates to nice guys finish last.
 
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