Miggs
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying Iverson wasn't very good but there's no way I'd put him ahead of Payton. Ever.
And I would guess Iverson's offensive metrics sucked because he chucked and not on good percnetages if I recall.
Who are the 10 greatest NBA Players of all Time?
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I'm not saying Iverson wasn't very good but there's no way I'd put him ahead of Payton. Ever.
And I would guess Iverson's offensive metrics sucked because he chucked and not on good percnetages if I recall.
fishonjazz
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I see
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
No (unless Chris Froome has a spectacular late career), but four different guys have won it five times. Nobody knew that any of those guys would be so successful until they started producing results. For all we know a new superstar will emerge this year.
Lance Armstrong's victories were not legit, though, so the point about breaking his record is moot. He has no record.
Miggs
Well-Known Member
Virtually none of their records are. The sport, much like swimming, and how rife it is with doping, is a joke.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Cycling is a fantastic sport. It's been particularly prone to cheating through doping because there are a variety of drugs that can make a huge difference. The history has not been good. I'm not as familiar with the situation in swimming but I can see why there would be similarities.
Scientific advances and changes in doping methods have made detection difficult. In addition, the UCI (organizing body) has not done a good job of overseeing things, and has even looked the other way at times. But the situation is much better ATM. IMO calling pro road cycling a joke is a low blow, but that's partly because I have close relationships with athletes who I believe such statements unfairly tarnish. It's going to take a long time to rehab the image in the eyes of many people. The current testing situation involves a "biological passport." Athletes are routinely tested to measure their biological parameters, rather than to look for markers for specific drugs (which has proven virtually impossible). If the parameters change in non-natural ways the cyclist is suspended, even if the testers don't know why the change occurred. Multiple suspensions result in banishment. Most people familiar with the situation feel a lot more comfortable with the cleanliness of the sport than they ever have before. I'm sure some people will always assume cycling is dirty no matter what the current reality is. Unfortunately clean athletes will always pay the biggest price for the actions of dirty athletes.
I assume every pro athlete cheats with drugs really.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Nearly every athlete presses the envelope as far as they can get away with. They are essentially forced to. If the governing authorities of a sport ban a substance, but the testing is not adequate or there is a loophole of some kind, then some athletes are going to take advantage of it, and when that happens other athletes will have to start taking advantage of it too because their careers depend on keeping their relative place in the pecking order.
The Armstrong case is a massive extreme, though. It's a discussion for another time and place. I have inside knowledge of what happened. I'd be stunned if there is any other case in any other sport where one athlete went to the lengths and did the damage that he did. Lance is an extreme narcissist who has destroyed innocent people without remorse. Why did he do this? Simply because they knew the truth about him so he had to discredit them in order to keep his lie going. He is a bully of the highest order. Stripping him of his titles was definitely justified.
Miggs
Well-Known Member
Yep.