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Why are so many people capable of believing anything?

That only makes sense if you already believe. Why those sets of morals? How do you know these are the best way to go if you haven't examined the foundation they're built upon? These answers don't get me closer because they are responses people come up with to JUSTIFY their belief. Meaning, they have to be believers to begin with. I, as an unbeliever, cannot just wake up and go "you know, from now on, I'm Sikh. It'll probably help me be a better person". I would have to buy their story before I accept the correctness of their morals.

Beacuse "Mormonism" works for me. As an "unbeliever" what do you believe in? There has to be something.

Who said it has to be belief in religion. What about belief in the promise of humanity? That if we would get out of our own way we could cure cancer, AIDS, eradicate starvation, ends wars, fly to Mars...
 
Beacuse "Mormonism" works for me. As an "unbeliever" what do you believe in? There has to be something.

Who said it has to be belief in religion. What about belief in the promise of humanity? That if we would get out of our own way we could cure cancer, AIDS, eradicate starvation, ends wars, fly to Mars...

Sure, I am actually a big fan of humanity, and I think we've accomplished much. I think the world is objectively better today in most areas than it was in the past, and I believe it will likely continue to improve barring a major catastrophe. But none of that is faith. Based on the progress we've made, and the investment in progress that continues to be made, I expect certain results. My interpretation might be wrong, and I often read books that argue as much. None of that is something outside of my experience, and none of it needs to be based on silent acceptance. However, I tried to keep it about faiths that most people would consider crazy. I knew that otherwise people would just try and justify their own faith.

So forget about your religion for a second (which I view as a cultural product, and culture is hard to break). Why do so many people believe in something that everyone else KNOWS is wrong? What makes the jump from "I believe there is a higher purpose to life" to "our reptilian overlords will accept our spirits into their techno-heaven"? How can someone behave logically in all aspects, but totally crazy in one?
 
SiroMar, my compliments on the thread. This is interesting. To speak for me personally it seems I had an experience similar to yours in that I was brought up in a certain religion I desperately wanted to believe-in during my younger years. As I got older I began to have a lot of questions with answers that did not satisfy me in a spiritual way. It was these questions and a lack of decent answers that made me decide that particular faith was not for me. Now I don't know what I consider myself spiritually. I believe in the spiritual, but don't really subscribe to any particular religion. I've had too many experiences that convince me that there is a spiritual aspect to existing, however my philosophy on religion is "to each their own". As long as something works for someone to make them a better person or to make their life better, then I am happy for them.

Not just to limit this topic to religion, but it is an interesting question you bring up, just from a public information standpoint. People trust news sources to provide them with current events, but it seems that nowadays you can't read a particular news story without getting the reporters beliefs thrown in, in a subtle manner. Every major media outlet knows that sensationalism sells and so news sources seem to constantly be trying to sensationalize everything with a particular political spin...and it is amazing to me that people will believe anything as long as it is in print without considering the source.
 
Sure, I am actually a big fan of humanity, and I think we've accomplished much. I think the world is objectively better today in most areas than it was in the past, and I believe it will likely continue to improve barring a major catastrophe. But none of that is faith. Based on the progress we've made, and the investment in progress that continues to be made, I expect certain results. My interpretation might be wrong, and I often read books that argue as much. None of that is something outside of my experience, and none of it needs to be based on silent acceptance. However, I tried to keep it about faiths that most people would consider crazy. I knew that otherwise people would just try and justify their own faith.

So forget about your religion for a second (which I view as a cultural product, and culture is hard to break). Why do so many people believe in something that everyone else KNOWS is wrong? What makes the jump from "I believe there is a higher purpose to life" to "our reptilian overlords will accept our spirits into their techno-heaven"? How can someone behave logically in all aspects, but totally crazy in one?

You believe is wrong. Also your use of "everyone" is a drastic exaggeration. Many more poeple have belief in a higher power of some kind then do not. As for faith v. belief I was going with belief becasue that is in your title.
 
You believe is wrong. Also your use of "everyone" is a drastic exaggeration. Many more poeple have beliefe in a higher power of sioem kind then do not. As for faith v belief I was going with belief becasue that is in your title.

You should read what I'm saying more carefully. I didn't say what you think I said.
 
You should read what I'm saying more carefully. I didn't say what you think I said.


No I see what you are saying and you have good soul searching questions that to be honest I am not interested in delving into. I chose to focus on what I did becasue I disagreed with it and am about to hit the sack.

Good thread Siro. Later
 
TBS, that seemed like a post I'd love to respond to. But since I don't read anything you post, I guess we'll never know.

Spycam1, what do you mean you received outside confirmation?

I have felt a spiritual entity enter my heart to testify truth--you could say it resembles an emotional "feeling."

The issue that arrives when using something such as an emotion as evidence is that emotions are subjective, obviously. However, one can discern between a feeling that derives from within one's self and when it is an outside force entering you. To better understand what I'm saying, I would compare this to literal pain in the heart, i.e. one can discern between the pain of a heart attack vs an outside force causing the pain, such as a knife. I can discern between my own subjective emotions and this outside spiritual force as clearly as I can discern between a heart attack and a knife stabbing me, and it has testified truth to my heart.
 
I have felt a spiritual entity enter my heart to testify truth--you could say it resembles an emotional "feeling."

The issue that arrives when using something such as an emotion as evidence is that emotions are subjective, obviously. However, one can discern between a feeling that derives from within one's self and when it is an outside force entering you. To better understand what I'm saying, I would compare this to literal pain in the heart, i.e. one can discern between the pain of a heart attack vs an outside force causing the pain, such as a knife. I can discern between my own subjective emotions and this outside spiritual force as clearly as I can discern between a heart attack and a knife stabbing me, and it has testified truth to my heart.

I like that. It is an answer to my question. You have faith because you believe you received a personal confirmation of that faith. I suppose this is what Mormons often refer to as The Spirit.

While a student at BYU, I attended church a few times with Mormon friends and roommates. I remember one of those times a guy went up to... what do you call it? Give his testimony? He talked about the usual stuff of how he feels god's love and so on and so forth, then he told a story. He said that he often listened to music while studying, and that he preferred classical music because it is calming and beautiful. He said that the other day he was studying and listening to Mozart when he felt the spirit in full force. He then talked about how he believed god sometimes spoke through music. I've seen this sentiment reflected many times. For an example, Dan Barker, a former nationally known evangelist preacher turned atheist, talks about the spiritual confirmation in his book 'Godless'.

Well, I got that feeling listening to music many times. It is actually similar to that pain in your heart that you get when you "fall in love". I don't think it has any spiritual significance. But I suppose others do and that's okay. But I still wonder, how can it go from a vague mystical moment that inspires belief in a higher power or what have you, into specific and quite crazy set of beliefs like "the world will end in 27 days"? Is it also a spiritual confirmation in their case?

I keep going back to cult religions because mainstream ones have the power of culture behind them. Culture can make you believe anything. Some cultures sacrificed their children to their gods for better harvest season. I talk about religions outside of the mainstream because they feed on faith and only faith. I want to understand how faith works. Not academically (which I've read about quite a bit), but from the experiences of those who have it.
 
I keep going back to cult religions because mainstream ones have the power of culture behind them. Culture can make you believe anything. Some cultures sacrificed their children to their gods for better harvest season. I talk about religions outside of the mainstream because they feed on faith and only faith. I want to understand how faith works. Not academically (which I've read about quite a bit), but from the experiences of those who have it.

Not that I think my reply makes it important to note, but I am not LDS (I know, you may be shocked).

Just curious, what is the difference between 'mainstream' religions and their 'culture' and that of cult religion? I mean, how much more power of influence, over you, does a historical or political culture have than one of a smaller, more intimate, group of friends? I suspect the latter has more influence. Thoughts?
 
I like that. It is an answer to my question. You have faith because you believe you received a personal confirmation of that faith. I suppose this is what Mormons often refer to as The Spirit.

While a student at BYU, I attended church a few times with Mormon friends and roommates. I remember one of those times a guy went up to... what do you call it? Give his testimony? He talked about the usual stuff of how he feels god's love and so on and so forth, then he told a story. He said that he often listened to music while studying, and that he preferred classical music because it is calming and beautiful. He said that the other day he was studying and listening to Mozart when he felt the spirit in full force. He then talked about how he believed god sometimes spoke through music. I've seen this sentiment reflected many times. For an example, Dan Barker, a former nationally known evangelist preacher turned atheist, talks about the spiritual confirmation in his book 'Godless'.

Well, I got that feeling listening to music many times. It is actually similar to that pain in your heart that you get when you "fall in love". I don't think it has any spiritual significance. But I suppose others do and that's okay. But I still wonder, how can it go from a vague mystical moment that inspires belief in a higher power or what have you, into specific and quite crazy set of beliefs like "the world will end in 27 days"? Is it also a spiritual confirmation in their case?

I keep going back to cult religions because mainstream ones have the power of culture behind them. Culture can make you believe anything. Some cultures sacrificed their children to their gods for better harvest season. I talk about religions outside of the mainstream because they feed on faith and only faith. I want to understand how faith works. Not academically (which I've read about quite a bit), but from the experiences of those who have it.

Certainly not. If it was truly an outside force of spiritual nature telling them that the world would in 27 days, then it would have. Otherwise, that outside force would be wrong, which seems a little counter intuitive to the very nature of the idea, itself, in my opinion.

I briefly explained the foundation for which my personal testimony towards the idea of God was formed, but to answer the broader question you have concerning the idea of faith in general I would say that it all stems from hope. Before you can have faith in something, you must first have hope; it is the very foundation of faith. For instance, several months back my car had some bizarre problems and I would often worry that it would break down as I was driving somewhere. However, I obviously hoped that it would function properly and get me to my destination, and from that hope I acted in faith (that's essentially what faith is--acting in accordance with a hope) and would drive my car wherever I need to go.

So I would say people act in faith, however bizarre it may seem to outside parties, because they hope for those things to be true. Now, it's obviously easier to see why people may hope for some things to be true, like the idea of God, than it is with other things, such as why someone would hope the world will end in 27 days. Perhaps knowing when the world will end is comforting as opposed to not knowing? I'm not sure. But fear often, or perhaps always does stem from uncertainty.

What I'm trying to say is that faith is merely acting in accordance with a hope, as I stated earlier, so the real question is why do people hope for certain things to be true? Why do people hope the world will end in 27 days? Why do people hope there are 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven? I believe it all comes down to what has already been mentioned in this thread: because we are aware that we will one day die, we must hope that that is not the real end of our time. Without time there can be no purpose, and without purpose there can be no meaning; as emotional, or spiritual beings--however you want to phrase it--humans, by our very nature, need there to be meaning, or as Memories, Dreams, Reflections phrases it, "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." We need there to be meaning--we hope for it, and we find it, sometimes in illogical places. But for an individual, it does not always matter if it is seemingly illogical. If for whatever reason one finds some form of purpose, some sort of meaning, then they'll believe it because they want to believe it--they need to believe it, because they need that greater meaning. They need it to the extent that they are willing to overlook its logical pitfalls, sometimes on a conscious level, and perhaps even more often on a subconscious level. For most, "kindling that light of meaning", despite its logical flaws, is better than wallowing in "the darkness of mere being."
 
I love psuedointellectuals that think that Dan Barker, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennitt, and Sam Harris are intelligent people. I call them wikipedia scholars because they are often people like SiroMar who think they are smart but are not :).

The new atheist movement has nothing on the old. There has been no David Hume, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Friedrich Nietsche.
 
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Humanities ability to believe in something (any thing worthy) is one of mankinds greatest strengths in my opinion.

Beliefe in God, in Humanity..in something.

Why do those who "beliefe" in the Christian God disbelieve in humanity?


As long as something works for someone to make them a better person or to make their life better, then I am happy for them.

Can you qualify "better"? The way I understand your statements is "to each his own" = form your own value system and go with it. That's no religion at all but self elevating constructs of the individual minds. Where are the lines drawn? What makes someone "better"? How can any activity cross a line when the line is set by each individual?

The point I'm getting at is you are going to place your judgement on "to each his own" at some point and determine something is not "better", and in doing so you contradict your own rationale.

While a student at BYU, I attended church a few times with Mormon friends and roommates. I remember one of those times a guy went up to... what do you call it? Give his testimony? He talked about the usual stuff of how he feels god's love and so on and so forth, then he told a story. He said that he often listened to music while studying, and that he preferred classical music because it is calming and beautiful. He said that the other day he was studying and listening to Mozart when he felt the spirit in full force. He then talked about how he believed god sometimes spoke through music. I've seen this sentiment reflected many times. For an example, Dan Barker, a former nationally known evangelist preacher turned atheist, talks about the spiritual confirmation in his book 'Godless'.

I would consider something like Spycam's response worth listening to and discard the drive by testimonies. The thing about LDS testimony meetings is they tend to be an soapbox for drama queens to gain attention by proving their worthiness to the congregation. I'd consider the Mozart guy's testimony most likely crackpottery.

Some Mormons believe God tells them which shoe to tie first; others believe spiritual confirmation is "5 % inspiration, 95 % perspiration" or "When our wagon gets stuck in the mud, God is much more likely to assist the man who gets out to push than the man who merely raises his voice in prayer—no matter how eloquent the oration." (Uchtdorf)
 
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But people can believe in things are are absolutely and totally crazy, even though they themselves are neither crazy nor stupid.

I think a lot of it comes from cognitive shortcutting and system justification. Reality is complex, variable, and not prone to easy answers; easy answers are required to make decisions in a rapidly changing environment. So we develop shortcuts and simplifications for reality. Once we have placed reality into a box, changing that box requires considerable effort. It's much easier to selectively interpret reality so that the box keeps working than to redesign our box on a monthly, weekly, or even daily basis. If we did redesign our box daily, we would have little time for other activities.
 
Siromar you are a special chosen someone who broke this cycle of irrational belief. You are one of the few people smart enough to have such smartness to avoid the irrationalness that is false belief.

Perhaps you should join him.

2)The chance that me and you is alive, this universe exists and continues to exist is so small that any other belief is small in comparison.

Meaningless. You play Canasta with 108 playhing cards. The probability of any individual card order in a Canasta deck is about 1/(1.3246*10^174). If you put two decks together, you can make a combination that has a probability of about 1/(10^412). No divine intervention is required to create events of staggeringly small probabilities, it happens everyday.

3) An actual infinity does not exist anywhere in the universe including time. An infinite regress of events is not possible

1) Not possible within the universe, possible outside of it
2) An infinite regress is not the only alternative to "God did it"

and at some people someone must have created something.

Unsupported conclusion.

4) Why is there something rather then nothing. The question everyone wants to know, atheists have no answer to it rather then "it just is, thats how it turned out"

This is not improved by answering "why does God exist" with "God just does".

If absolute morality can be proven then God is more likely.

I disagree.

I am too rational and skeptical to be an atheist or not believe in some sort of divine.

A nice slogan, but lacking in meaning or substance.
 
I love psuedointellectuals that think that Dan Barker, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennitt, and Sam Harris are intelligent people.

By pretty much any measure, those people are smart, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. I would be foolish to think that William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, etc. were not smart simply because i did not think their arguments were valid or sound.

There has been no David Hume, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Friedrich Nietsche.

Barker, Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris are not aiming to be Hume, Schopenhauer, or Nietsche. The are trying to engender cultural change, and defending the philosophical integrity of atheism is a means to that, not an objective in and of itself. If you want to find an modern philosopher in the Nieitschean mold, try Daniel Fincke (I don't have specific recommendations for the other two).
 
I'd consider the Mozart guy's testimony most likely crackpottery.

He's the one I'd take most seriously.

Mozart in a letter to his father: "God is ever before my eyes." "I prayed to God for His mercy that all might go well, to His greater glory, and the symphony began." (Mozart, the Man and the Artist Revealed in His Own Words by Alfred Einstein

Johannes Brahms describing the source of his inspiration: "I immediately feel vibrations that thrill my whole being. These are the spirit illuminating the soul power within, and in this exalted state, I see clearly what is obscure in my ordinary moods. Then I feel capable of drawing inspiration from above, as Beethoven did . . . Straightway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies, and orchestration. Measure by measure, the finished product is revealed to me when I am in those rare inspired moods. The power from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspiration is the same power that enabled Jesus to work His miracles. It is the power that created our earth and the whole universe." (Talks with Great Composers by Abell)

J.S. Bach in 1708 said of his life's purpose: "To create well-regulated church music to the Glory of God." "Music's only purpose should be for the Glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." (The Divine Quest in Music by Robert Mendl)
 
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