Why guns need to be licensed and owners need training

[bigb]

The problem I have is not that I don't think training is essential to safe firearms ownership, it's that firearms ownership is tied (this is my opinion) to one's right to their own life. I believe that you completely own yourself, free and clear. You are also completely responsible for your own welfare. As a result it is your right to defend your life. Firearms are bar none one of the most effective tools for self defense when faced with a direct physical threat. Therefore I support the right of all people to utilize that tool in their own defense. So while I believe VERY strongly in the need to train with firearms and gain proficiency with them if you choose to own them I have a very hard time making that a requirement.

A second, and significantly less concerning issue for me is that training, licencing, certification requirements could be used to deny "undesirables" a right to firearms. Much like a poll tax or voter competency requirements limit a person's ability to participate in their own government, firearms licencing and certification limits and individuals ability to defend their own life and potentially limits who can defend themselves against a tyrannical government, which is the basis of the second amendment.

If there were basic firearms safety courses required in public schools I feel we could accomplish everything that licencing sets out to accomplish while not providing the possibility that certification and licencing could create limitations on who is allowed to posses a firearm.

Maybe I'm not following you correctly here. You're saying that EVERYONE, regardless of past misdeeds, should be allowed to own a gun?

 

[Gameface]

Maybe I'm not following you correctly here. You're saying that EVERYONE, regardless of past misdeeds, should be allowed to own a gun?

Well, no. I am in favor of restricting felons and people with documented mental illness that would make them particularly dangerous. I have a hard time with the felon thing, though. If they are still dangerous why were they released from prison? That's a whole other discussion on my personal dislike of our prison system and time based sentencing. To keep it simple, I'm in favor of denying felons the right to own firearms.

 

[One Brow]

So while I believe VERY strongly in the need to train with firearms and gain proficiency with them if you choose to own them I have a very hard time making that a requirement.

Owning and carrying are different, though. I don't see the need even for a permit if you have a non-loaded, historical weapon on display over your fireplace. If you're carelessly carrying a loaded weapon into a supermarket, you're endangering others.

A second, and significantly less concerning issue for me is that training, licencing, certification requirements could be used to deny "undesirables" a right to firearms. Much like a poll tax or voter competency requirements limit a person's ability to participate in their own government, firearms licencing and certification limits and individuals ability to defend their own life and potentially limits who can defend themselves against a tyrannical government, which is the basis of the second amendment.

If there were basic firearms safety courses required in public schools I feel we could accomplish everything that licencing sets out to accomplish while not providing the possibility that certification and licencing could create limitations on who is allowed to posses a firearm.

I can see your argument for free/reduced cost training on those grounds (not that I agree). I'm not sure if the schools are the right place in terms of cost efficiency, at least not on a mandatory basis, when less than 40% of the public will be carrying.

Many people get the notion that armed citizens will act like wild west cowboys and have a righteous shoot-out flinging lead in every direction until nothing is left moving. I think that is a complete fantasy.

I agree. Fantasy dominates reality in the rhetoric on both sides.

 

[Scat]

If you're carelessly carrying a loaded weapon into a supermarket, you're endangering others.

Would you consider a private citizen carrying a loaded weapon into the supermarket as anything but careless?

 

[Stoked]

Would you consider a private citizen carrying a loaded weapon into the supermarket as anything but careless?

I may be a fool but I am willing to give Racist Brow the benefit of the doubt here. I say he would be as long as it is properly secured in a holster and carried by someone with a permit.

At my town people (mostly the older ranchers) strap their hand cannons on their thigh in a holster and walk around with it in plain site. No one even misses a beat seeing the weapons.

 

[One Brow]

Would you consider a private citizen carrying a loaded weapon into the supermarket as anything but careless?

You mean, would I still say he was careless if, as an example, the weapon was properly holstered and had the safety on? I would not call that careless. The gentleman in the original post had his gun go off while reaching for his wallet. Would you say he was careless?

Did you confuse me for someone else?

 

[Gameface]

You mean, would I still say he was careless if, as an example, the weapon was properly holstered and had the safety on? I would not call that careless. The gentleman in the original post had his gun go off while reaching for his wallet. Would you say he was careless?

Did you confuse me for someone else?

Many modern handguns and all revolvers don't have a manual safety. I personally would never buy a handgun with a manual safety, mostly because I've gotten used to not having one and would probably forget to disengage it in a stressful situation. A manual safety should never be necessary.

 

[One Brow]

Many modern handguns and no revolvers have a manual safety. I personally would never buy a handgun with a manual safety, mostly because I've gotten used to not having one and would probably forget to disengage it in a stressful situation. A manual safety should never be necessary.

If a safetyless gun is properly holstered, how easy would it be to set off while fumbling around for your wallet? Having never handled either gun or hjolster, I have no clue.

For example, how certain would be that the man in the OP did not have his gun holstered?

 

[Stoked]

If a safetyless gun is properly holstered, how easy would it be to set off while fumbling around for your wallet? Having never handled either gun or hjolster, I have no clue.

For example, how certain would be that the man in the OP did not have his gun holstered?

A properly holstered gun should never have an accidental discharge. A proper holster is designed for the gun you are carrying and prevents you from pulling the trigger while in the holster.

 

[One Brow]

A properly holstered gun should never have an accidental discharge. A proper holster is designed for the gun you are carrying and prevents you from pulling the trigger while in the holster.

Fair enough. Properly holstered is enough to say "not careless".

 

[Stoked]

Fair enough. Properly holstered is enough to say "not careless".

Well while the definitions are not the same, common sense would say that a person that always properly holsters his gun is being careful.

 

[Qman]

When you drive a car, you need to have a license to drive, which has nothing to do with the license for the car. The driver's license shows you have acheived some minimal knowledge a bout how a car works, traffic, etc. As you pointed out, the equivalent for carrying a gun is called a permit. Again, thank you for focusing on the terminology rather than the notion of required training to carry the gun, smart guy.

A driver's license allow to to legally drive on public roads. You can do whatever the crap you want on roads you own.

Large numbers of people drive with out driver licenses or training.

https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118913&page=1#.UCWpDp1lTAE

There is a license that exists regulate firearm use in public. It called a concealed carry permit. I believe that enforcing more rigorous training for CC permits is a good idea. I also think make gun safety/rifle markmanship a required class in high school would be a large positive.

Criminals and crazies don't care about CC permits or licensing. Only law-abiding citizen would follow such laws.

 

[Qman]

A properly holstered gun should never have an accidental discharge. A proper holster is designed for the gun you are carrying and prevents you from pulling the trigger while in the holster.

Modern firearms have a 'trigger' safety meaning the gun will only fire if the trigger is pulled. And yes a proper holster completely covers the trigger.