Why is one NBA owner STILL allowed to use the "N" word???l

[One Brow]

There you go, OneBrow. I hadn't watched it until Chi brought it up again -- it's not bad.

It has an amusing idealism you often see from the young. I recall Richard Pryor, for example, supporting his usage as a young man on similar points, than rejecting those same points later on.

I didn't see anything in the video that actually was different from what I said.

 

[TroutBum]

It has an amusing idealism you often see from the young. I recall Richard Pryor, for example, supporting his usage as a young man on similar points, than rejecting those same points later on.

I didn't see anything in the video that actually was different from what I said.

You didn't? Care to watch it again, this time with your computer turned on?

Also, nothing beats the, "Awww, these damn youngsters and their new-fangled ideas!" diatribe. Sure, "the young" have their fairshare of bad ideas and causes, but any reasonable person doesn't discount something just because it was presented by a youngster.

 

[One Brow]

Also, nothing beats the, "Awww, these damn youngsters and their new-fangled ideas!" diatribe.

Actually, as I pointed out, it's not a new idea (hence, the Ricard pryor reference). It's at least 30 years old. It didn't work in the 70s, and it doesn't work now.

... any reasonable person doesn't discount something just because it was presented by a youngster.

I agree. It's not a bad idea because it was presented by a youngster. It's a bad idea because it adopts an overly idealistic view of language and culture, and the ability of humans to separate their use of a word from the connotations fo the surrounding culture.

Considering all the additional words thrown into th emix, what in the video do you see as refuting this observation:

The first is more typically used to emphasize the difference between the speaker and the referent (as in, 'you are a ******, and I'm not'), the second is used to emphasize commonality between the speaker and referent ('we're both just ******'), but these are connotations, and don't change the basic meaning of the word.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

One Brow - the main point KRS One made is that his meaning, and those of his ilk (including myself and Trout Bum), is completely different than your meaning. Therefore, there is no correlation between the two words. One word is a term of endearment, the other is an inflammatory racial slur.

 

[One Brow]

chitownjazz,

Could you please tell me how that difference is not reflected in the last quote of the comment I made immediately above yours? Because using something as an expression of commonality, as opposed to an expression of difference, does not actually change what the word means. You're changing the connotation, but not the meaning.

As I pointed out, I've seen KRS One's logic being used for decades now. I used to think there was something to it. I was wrong. The reasoning is based on an unrealistic notion of language and culture.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

chitownjazz,

Could you please tell me how that difference is not reflected in the last quote of the comment I made immediately above yours? Because using something as an expression of commonality, as opposed to an expression of difference, does not actually change what the word means. You're changing the connotation, but not the meaning.

As I pointed out, I've seen KRS One's logic being used for decades now. I used to think there was something to it. I was wrong. The reasoning is based on an unrealistic notion of language and culture.

***** is not the same word as the slur. It was created well after the slur was established and has a completely different meaning. It's obvious in the context both are used in. Not sure what you're missing. If your argument is if that an old white man or woman went up to a random group of black dudes on the street and said, 'what up my *****? (with an A)' the reaction would be the same as if they said it with an ER than you are way off.

 

[carolinajazz]

If your argument is if that an old white man or woman went up to a random group of black dudes on the street and said, 'what up my *****? (with an A)' the reaction would be the same as if they said it with an ER than you are way off.

....personally, in either case.....they'd be capped within seconds!!!

 

[Gameface]

....personally, in either case.....they'd be capped within seconds!!!

Why is that?

Are you assuming every group of young black men on the street are in possesion of guns?

Are you assuming that every group of young black men on the street are violent and hostile?

I dislike when people cry racism when what you've written is not racism all by itself. I dislike it because they are making assumtions and placing their own meaning on your words. So here you've made a statement that I will not call racism on its own, but that I'd like you to explain. I dislike it because it seems you are making assumptions about the nature of a group of young black men.

 

[carolinajazz]

Why is that?

Are you assuming every group of young black men on the street are in possesion of guns?

Are you assuming that every group of young black men on the street are violent and hostile?

I dislike when people cry racism when what you've written is not racism all by itself. I dislike it because they are making assumtions and placing their own meaning on your words. So here you've made a statement that I will not call racism on its own, but that I'd like you to explain. I dislike it because it seems you are making assumptions about the nature of a group of young black men.

....well, not to put too fine a point on it....but a "group of young black dudes" hanging out on the street would be a situation I would personally pretty much avoid at all cost...since the likely hood of a confrontation, especially if I addressed them with the "n" word, would rile up SOMEONE in that crowd, don't ya think? Are they "violently" inclined....or packing some "heat"? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But I'm not taking the chance, kapesh? I guess to answer your question, it all depends on where this group of fellows is standing! If it's some urban neighborhood in a big city.....then yes, the likelyhood goes up by a factor of 10! If they were taking a break from NBA negotiations outside of some downtown hotel....then no.

 

[One Brow]

***** is not the same word as the slur. It was created well after the slur was established and has a completely different meaning.

That is factually incorrect. "*****" is a dialetctual variant of "******", originating in areas that change many of their ending "er"s in "a"s, that has been adopted by people who don't normally use that dialect.

It's obvious in the context both are used in. Not sure what you're missing.

Perhaps that's because I'm not missing anything.

If your argument is if that an old white man or woman went up to a random group of black dudes on the street and said, 'what up my *****? (with an A)' the reaction would be the same as if they said it with an ER than you are way off.

Depends on the particular group of dudes in question.

I'd still like to hear why you think the differences you say exist are not reflected in my description of the different connotations, when you get a chance.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

Sounds like we're running in circles. I side with KRS in that those who associate the two words together and with the same meaning are culturally illiterate. ***** (with an A) is analogous to 'dude'. I'm not getting your connotations argument because they are two separate words, spelled differently. It's not like a word like 'home' or 'truth' that have different connotations. The fact the ***** (with an A) was derived from the slur is irrelevant here. I don't know for sure, because I've never researched it extensively, but I don't think the more recent version was created because of initial pronunciation differences. Even if it was that, it's developed into something completely different. At this point, they just share four letters.

 

[One Brow]

I side with KRS in that those who associate the two words together and with the same meaning are culturally illiterate.

If you like. For that matter, you can also add "bitch", "whore", and all the other words he expressed as saying they were not derogatory in the video, and say anyone who thinks those words are derogatory is culturally illiterate. Why not? YOu know, outside of the larger culture in which you participate.

It's not like a word like 'home' or 'truth' that have different connotations.

Why is it possible that 'home' and 'truth' have different connotations, but '******' doesn't?

The fact the ***** (with an A) was derived from the slur is irrelevant here.

Actually, the reason that '*****' is used is because it is derived from the slur.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

-You should watch that clip again. What you've said is a gross over-simplification of his point, and it's clear you've missed it completely. I will explain further if need be.

-If you ask someone who grew up in poverty with one or no parents, their meaning of home would be different than someone who grew up in a big house in a tight-knit family. Same thing with truth if asked to a devout religious person or an atheist. ***** (with an A) and ****** (with an ER) are separately spelled words, thus the distinguishable difference and meaning.

-It was derived from the slur, but was created to combat the original - not to have the same meaning. It never has had the same meaning. Not sure why you can't grasp that concept. Unless you can provide proof that ***** (with an A) has ever been used with the same intention as ****** (with an ER) than I will not budge.

 

[bigb]

....well, not to put too fine a point on it....but a "group of young black dudes" hanging out on the street would be a situation I would personally pretty much avoid at all cost...since the likely hood of a confrontation, especially if I addressed them with the "n" word, would rile up SOMEONE in that crowd, don't ya think? Are they "violently" inclined....or packing some "heat"? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But I'm not taking the chance, kapesh? I guess to answer your question, it all depends on where this group of fellows is standing! If it's some urban neighborhood in a big city.....then yes, the likelyhood goes up by a factor of 10! If they were taking a break from NBA negotiations outside of some downtown hotel....then no.

What if this group of young black dudes were all dressed in Armani suits? Even if they're in "some urban neighborhood in a big city"? There are plenty of people (even black people, gasp) who don't live the life style. Hell, they could be in Compton, dressed head to toe in Raider silver and black, and not live that life style. Your blanket statements show just how far up your *** you've got your head. You must smell nothing but **** all the time.

 

[carolinajazz]

Hell, they could be in Compton, dressed head to toe in Raider silver and black, and not live that life style.

...hey, I hear those Raider fans are MORE violent and dangerous than any other football fanatics in the league! I'd avoid them, too!

 

[One Brow]

-You should watch that clip again. What you've said is a gross over-simplification of his point, and it's clear you've missed it completely. I will explain further if need be.

Why, how kind of you. As someone who in the same generation as KRS One, who lived in a hoousing project in St. Louis for the second half of his childhood, and whose life has been regularly touched by racism, I am looking forward to your educating me on this issue. Do go on. After all, it can't possibly that I understand KRS One, and simply disagree. It must be my lack of understanding.

-If you ask someone who grew up in poverty with one or no parents, their meaning of home would be different than someone who grew up in a big house in a tight-knit family. Same thing with truth if asked to a devout religious person or an atheist.

Of course. We refer to those difference as connotation. Connotaton is more than enough to explain the difference between what I heard in high school and what KRS One says to his friends.

***** (with an A) and ****** (with an ER) are separately spelled words, thus the distinguishable difference and meaning.

The same word can have different spellings (color and colour). For that matter, completely different words can have the same spelling (cleave and cleave). Spelling is hardly defnitive. Also, '******', when pronouced in certain parts of the country, sounds exactly like '*****'. Nor is the usage as exclusive as you seem to think it is. Sopmetimes the six-letter variation has been used among friends, and the five-letter as an insult.

-It was derived from the slur, but was created to combat the original - not to have the same meaning.

Exactly. The meaning of 'fellow member of the oppressed group' was derived from 'member of a group deserving to be oppressed'. Any human can be your 'brother' or 'sister', but only a fellow member of your oppressed group could be your '*****'.

It never has had the same meaning. Not sure why you can't grasp that concept.

A concept can be easy to grasp, and still wrong.

Unless you can provide proof that ***** (with an A) has ever been used with the same intention as ****** (with an ER) than I will not budge.

Don't be silly. I could pull in fifteen videos from various sources documenting that, and you still would not budge. I have no expectation of reasoning you out of your position.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

When he used 'bitch' and 'whore' they were examples. He wasn't saying those words aren't derogatory. He was making a point that if two people, or an entire culture of people, define a word a certain way - then that's the definition. If those words conjure up feelings of endearment, or anything that isn't hateful, then that's what it becomes to them.

Not sure why you would quote everything I wrote aside from the evolution of a definition. You growing up in the 60's and 70's should know better that the word has a different meaning today than it did when you were growing up.

I'd love to see one of your 15 videos where someone uses the five letter variance in the same fashion the six letter one would be used. I'm not being patronizing, and I would adjust out of my position if I saw evidence of such. Through my years on this earth, living in one of the most racist and diverse cities in the country, I have yet to hear anyone use the five letter variance as the same meaning as the six letter.

 

[One Brow]

When he used 'bitch' and 'whore' they were examples. He wasn't saying those words aren't derogatory.

Why not? Why are some words redefinable, and others not?

If those words conjure up feelings of endearment, or anything that isn't hateful, then that's what it becomes to them.

That does not make it a different word with a different meaning.

You growing up in the 60's and 70's should know better that the word has a different meaning today than it did when you were growing up.

Words (and cultures) don't change that quickly.

I'd love to see one of your 15 videos where someone uses the five letter variance in the same fashion the six letter one would be used. I'm not being patronizing, and I would adjust out of my position if I saw evidence of such.

So, for example, if I take the time to search out a video from, say, 1950s Mississippi, and find some light-skinned politician using the five-letter variation to demean members of the civil rights movement, you'll change your mind?

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

LOL 1950's mississippi? What? He was saying the six letter word. Maybe his twang makes it sound like the five letter version, but that is purely coincidence. the five letter version Jay-Z (the reason for the thread) uses is purposely pronounced that way. Let's just end the debate.

 

[One Brow]

He was saying the six letter word. Maybe his twang makes it sound like the five letter version, but that is purely coincidence.

No, it's not coincidence. There's a reason the five-letter word is not 'niggi' nor 'niggoe' nor 'niggoo'. '*****' was deliberately chosen as a subversion, a way of accepting that people would use that term no matter what, self-identifying in comradery, and affirming the shared persecution. That's the history and cultural force behind it.