Why no #TradePaulMillsap thread?

[LunaticWolf]

Positive I haven't. I started posting those figures at the start of 2011-2012. Why would I be posting about Boozer during that time?

That all depends on how you define value. What I believe it shows you is who is creating positive impact on the floor, and thus helping you to win.

 

[GVC]

Positive I haven't. I started posting those figures at the start of 2011-2012. Why would I be posting about Boozer during that time?

That all depends on how you define value. What I believe it shows you is who is creating positive impact on the floor, and thus helping you to win.

So Millsap is creating about as much positive impact now as he did before he was a starter (and still more than Jefferson)?

 

[LunaticWolf]

So Millsap is creating as much positive impact now as he did before he was a starter?

No. If you look at individual games he is creating more.

More minutes.

(exception - 08-09)

 

[GVC]

No. If you look at individual games he is creating more.

More minutes.

(exception - 08-09)

But it doesn't make sense that people want to trade Jefferson and love Millsap?

 

[LunaticWolf]

But it doesn't make sense that people want to trade Jefferson and love Millsap?

No it doesn't. Jefferson impacted games virtually at the same rate as Millsap last year, and slightly less this year.

They aren't judged on the same scale.

 

[GVC]

No it doesn't. Jefferson impacted games virtually at the same rate as Millsap last year, and slightly less this year.

They aren't judged on the same scale.

So...he's impacted the game less in each of the 3 seasons they've played together (+6 v. +9 this year; +9 v. +11 last year; +3 v. +6 in 10/11), while getting paid substantially more money, but people should like them equally?

 

[LunaticWolf]

So...he's impacted the game less in each of the 3 seasons they've played together (+6 v. +9 this year; +9 v. +11 last year; +3 v. +6 in 10/11), while getting paid substantially more money, but people should like them equally?

Al is hated worse than Marvin (-6). Does that answer your question?

And this brings in the definition of value. Where does contract size fit in?

 

[Mission Accomplished]

milsap can create off of the dribble something that Jefferson and Boozer can't do

 

[GVC]

Al is hated worse than Marvin (-6). Does that answer your question?

And this brings in the definition of value. Where does contract size fit in?

1. Doesn't answer the question, no. It makes sense that people prefer Millsap, regardless of how irrational they are about Marvin (ignoring how flawed ORtg and DRtg are).

2. You don't think fans should evaluate players relative to their contracts? With the salary cap as it is, paying unproductive players loads of money hinders a team's ability to improve (this is not directed at Al). Fans generally want to cheer for teams that either are contenders or can become contenders.

 

[LunaticWolf]

1. Doesn't answer the question, no. It makes sense that people prefer Millsap, regardless of how irrational they are about Marvin (ignoring how flawed ORtg and DRtg are).

He the most hated player on the team, yet has the 3rd most impact. One behind Millsap.

Next to DRTG being team based (the best we can do with defense statistics), what flaws are there?

PS: We aren't comparing players across teams, so really that isn't a flaw

2. You don't think fans should evaluate players relative to their contracts? With the salary cap as it is, paying unproductive players loads of money hinders a team's ability to improve (this is not directed at Al). Fans generally want to cheer for teams that either are contenders or can become contenders.

In terms of a team building a championship contender, no. It overvalues underpaid players way too much. Underpaid players get paid, and most of the time, they change teams. You can't keep them.

 

[GVC]

In terms of a team building a championship contender, no. It overvalues underpaid players way too much. Underpaid players get paid, and most of the time, they change teams. You can't keep them.

Which is why it's important for your highly paid players to have a significant impact on wins and losses. A lot of people don't think Al is the type of guy you can build a contender around, so they see him as a hindrance. It's completely rational.

 

[The Norm]

No team with Al as a primary scorer will ever win anything, and I don't think he can fit in an offense when he's not the primary scorer.

 

[LunaticWolf]

Which is why it's important for your highly paid players to have a significant impact on wins and losses.

Which he is.

 

[LunaticWolf]

No team with Al as a primary scorer will ever win anything

Why?

 

[GVC]

Which he is.

Debatable. Not sure he's a guy you want to pay $15mm and build around. Not sure he's a guy who can succeed in a complementary role. While people love to find villains, and Al has become a villain for a large chunk of Jazz fans, there are plenty of good reasons to want him gone (while also wanting to hold onto Millsap).

 

[LunaticWolf]

Debatable. Not sure he's a guy you want to pay $15mm and build around. Not sure he's a guy who can succeed in a complementary role.

Who says we are going to pay him 15 mil?

I forget, are we the ones who gave him a max extension? Or did we trade for the man?

 

[GVC]

I forget, are we the ones who gave him a max extension? Or did we trade for the man?

Irrelevant. The Jazz are the team paying him now.

I do agree that fans tend to go overboard with their "hate" of certain players, and frequently ignore data/evidence that contradicts what they want to believe. For example, while the Jazz have been outscored with Jefferson on the court and with the Jefferson-Millsap combo on the court this season, this wasn't true last season. Yet, on several occasions I've read posts where fans talk about how much more effective Kanter and Favors are this season and were last season than Jefferson and Millsap (yes, I recognize the flaws in +/-...but these arguments usually revolve around the Jazz getting killed with Al-Millsap on the court, which simply wasn't true last season). This flies in the face of every metric available (simple box score stats, PER, Win shares, ORtg - DRtg, +/-, adjusted +/-, etc.).

As for re-signing Al, I might be ok with it at a dollar amount well below what he'll end up getting, and under the condition that he's ok moving to a bench role as he's supplanted by Favors and Kanter. Also, I don't particularly enjoy watching him play and think defense is particularly important in the playoffs when the game slows down and teams can prepare for opponents.

 

[green]

I feel about Al how I felt about AK.

If they are willing to come off the bench for 7-9 million a year, I LOVE them.

If they want to start and be the man? Move on. They are both third options for a team.

 

[green]

Also, the reason why Al is a third option and best off the bench is because he is a Dwight Howard type player offensively. You HAVE to run the offense through him, because he can't do anything other than post up. The reason why he is a third option off the bench is because he isn't good enough defensively (unlike Howard) to carry a starting role.

 

[DutchJazzer]

I find it interesting that when we talk about trading Al, everyone makes it sound like he has no value and we should only get a bag of chips. Yet, in almost the same breath, these people will say Al will command 15 mil a year and a starting posistion. WTF

Trade Al and Paul. We have two guys who were number 3 overall picks that will be better anyways, and thats where our money should be going. Get something for Al and Paul to help fill the holes somehow. This isn't rocket science. We don't want all our value piled into four bigs. Just go and get a couple back ups for Enes and Derrick. This is do stupid to think we should be holding on to either one of them. Its either that or trade one of young guys. What the hell is the point to having Enes buried on the bench forever? Thats a 3 pick. Its a waste to not get a starter out of it.

al has no value according to me for the jazz. i want my jazz to play jazz basketbal, not alfense.
i want my jazz to make playoff run. or atleast play defense.

why al will get 15 million cus if charlotte gets al for example, they will win about 35 games per year garantueed which will sell more tickets hence from a bussnes standpoint al has a value.

but as a fan's point of view al aint leading us to the promissed land.



fans want championships
owners want profit.


if you want a championship al = used back of toilet paper
if you want profit al = 10-15mil