Here's the way I might see this dilemma. Jefferson adds a tougher low post scoring threat than Boozer. Teams will have to put their biggest best defender on Jefferson all the time. Jefferson is way more physical and nasty than Boozer. Jefferson will wear him down in short order making him easier to guard for Memo, Fes, Jefferson, Millsap, etc. A big shot blocking center may not be as urgent as it was with Boozer on the floor last year.
Why we can contend now w/defense
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Here's the way I might see this dilemma. Jefferson adds a tougher low post scoring threat than Boozer. Teams will have to put their biggest best defender on Jefferson all the time. Jefferson is way more physical and nasty than Boozer. Jefferson will wear him down in short order making him easier to guard for Memo, Fes, Jefferson, Millsap, etc. A big shot blocking center may not be as urgent as it was with Boozer on the floor last year.
KhaOZ
Well-Known Member
You wont be able to spread the defense with that. The paint will be bogged down every night.
We got rid of our two worst defensive players in Boozer and Korver, so hopefully we improve just because those 2 will never be on the floor.
Remember that AL is not a good defender. He blocks more shots than Boozer, but that's about it.
Bell is a good defender, but a little overrated imo, + he's older now.
I'd say we are a tougher now, but it's not like we have a huge upgrade in defense.
Bell is a good defender, but a little overrated imo, + he's older now.
I'd say we are a tougher now, but it's not like we have a huge upgrade in defense.
Well, how many teams actually had problems with Jefferson playing center for Minnesota? Did the Lakers? Did the Jazz even?
And so Bynum will guard Jefferson. Gasol on Millsap. How's that going to be a problem for LA?
Jefferson can guard Bynum or Gasol. But can Sap guard either of Bynum or Gasol? How's that going to work out for the Jazz?
I'd phrase it this way: A shot-blocking center was more urgent with Boozer last year. But, especially against the Lakers, it remains an urgent need.
Getting a shot-blocking center means that the Jazz actually get somebody tall who can help against LA's bigs and serve as last-ditch defense vs Kobe and cutting wings.
Jefferson's fine as C in stretches but if he's supposed to spend most of his time there, that's just OK for a lotto team like Minny. As the Lakers are the team to beat, for a team like the Jazz that would actually want to 'contend', he'd be better maximized at PF as he'd be good-sized in that position ... so the Jazz need that shot-blocking center.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
The big problem isn't matching up with Bynum + Gasol; Millsap/Jefferson + Fes/Okur can handle them. It's the frontcourt of Artest, Odom, and Gasol that gives the Jazz fits. Millsap doesn't match well against Odom or Gasol, although I'm more optimistic than what Boozer was able to do. I'm not sure how much it was tried to have Millsap on Artest and Kirilenko on Odom (and then Jefferson or sometimes Fes or Memo on Gasol). Although Millsap at the 3 doesn't work against many teams, I'm wondering if it work against the Lakers.
As usual, it was visible from watching the game what was and wasn't working. But this data shows how ineffective Utah was vs. Fishe-Kobe-Artest-Odom-Gasol. In the 10ish minutes that it was used, swapping in Shannon Brown for Kobe didn't hurts the Faker domination.
https://basketballvalue.com/teamvsteam.php?year=2010 playoffs&team1=LAL&team2=UTA
This shows how ineffective Boozer-Millsap-Kirilenko was against Gasol-Odom-Ariza (sub in Artest this year).
https://basketballvalue.com/teamvsteam.php?team1=UTA&team2=LAL&year=2009 playoffs
I'm optimistic that Jefferson and/or a somewhat more mature Fesenko will do better.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
i just hope Bell can teach CJ and others some of his tricks and how to play "tough" without committing so many fouls. Toughness on defense is something this team is seriously lacking.
A shot-blocking big would be useful against that Gasol-Odom-Artest frontcourt. The bigs I'd support trading for are the likes of Gortat and Dalembert or somebody similar I might've missed. Not super players by themselves but could help within the system (and also probably obtainable). At least 6-11, defense-oriented and mobile. AK still gives up a couple inches vs Odom. Memo's a poor defender even pre-injury. And notice how many teams are not going after Fes despite being quite big and relatively mobile (just doesn't know how to play basketball and doesn't care for it).
So Jefferson on Gasol and that shot-blocking big on Odom, or vice versa. And I think too that Millsap against Artest could work. That would let the Jazz match up with that LA frontcourt. CJ and Raja taking turns on Kobe. Deron abusing Fisher and Blake. The Jazz would be in business.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
True, we need to hang on to Okur because he can shoot the 3.
NotDeadYet
Well-Known Member
So long as the Lakers stay healthy, they are the class of the NBA. No 2 ways about it. Even the *new* Heat are gonna find the Lakers tough to beat. They match up far WORSE defensively against the Lakers frontcourt than we do, IMO. It will be interesting to see how the Lakers DEFEND against the offensive arsenal assembled by the Heat.
Regarding size, Kendrick Perkins is 6'10", the same as Jefferson. Paul Pierce is 6'7", AK is 6'9". Garnett is 6'11"; OK,Millsap is only 6'8". But, Okur is 7'0"; slide Jefferson over to PF and we are BIGGER than the Celtics frontcourt, who looked to me like they were 1 injury away from dethroning the Lakers.
What people tend to overlook is the Lakers are a very veteran team. They look like they're gearing up for a "three-peat" by letting most of their young guys walk and replacing them with vets (Blake, Barnes, Ratliff). My contention is that veteran core is as big a factor in the Lakers' success as their length and athleticism. Veteran teams tend to understand the importance of good team defense moreso than youngsters.
Regarding size, Kendrick Perkins is 6'10", the same as Jefferson. Paul Pierce is 6'7", AK is 6'9". Garnett is 6'11"; OK,Millsap is only 6'8". But, Okur is 7'0"; slide Jefferson over to PF and we are BIGGER than the Celtics frontcourt, who looked to me like they were 1 injury away from dethroning the Lakers.
What people tend to overlook is the Lakers are a very veteran team. They look like they're gearing up for a "three-peat" by letting most of their young guys walk and replacing them with vets (Blake, Barnes, Ratliff). My contention is that veteran core is as big a factor in the Lakers' success as their length and athleticism. Veteran teams tend to understand the importance of good team defense moreso than youngsters.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I respect your post. However, it's not about height; it's more about standing reach, wingspan, max vert reach, and most of all, do the players mentioned play big. Perkins plays big. Like a ****ing beast. Garnett is as long as an octopus and plays big and long. Jefferson? We'll find out. Millsap, not so much. He tries his best but against true bigs, he gets eaten alive. Memo? Plays like he's glued to the ground.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
In the past, Millsap has been able to annoy Garnett, and KG ain't getting any younger.
I am looking forward to see AK-PM-AJ against the Celtics frontcourt almost as much as against the Bulls frontcourt.
If Rondo doesn't pwn DWill, Utah can beat Boston IMHO.
Oh--and about Millsap getting eaten alive against true bigs: I'd consider him a slight improvement over Boozer--at least in that regard.
Not getting my hopes up over Millsap-AK-Jefferson frontcourt vs. Artest-Odom-Gasol, but I hope that Sloan gives it a chance--and then either uses it a lot or not at all, depending on how it works. It'll be fun to see if Millsap can get in Artest's head (or vice-versa).
Utah can handle Artest-Gasol-Bynum/Ratliff.
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I usually agree with most everything you write, but this is a bold statement. Bold.
NotDeadYet
Well-Known Member
Great thread, guys!!
Where the Jazz interior defense really was eaten alive is when Sloan had both Millsap and Boozer on the floor because Sloan wouldn't sub Fes for Memo! Jefferson should alleviate that. An earlier post mentioned AJ as likely being much more motivated to play D on a legit contender like the Jazz than for a team with no shot at the playoffs. That was a very good point!
Millsap is a grade-A effort guy, but hasn't yet learned the nuances of getting ideal defensive position on his man consistantly. Anticipate where your man wants to go and BE there before he can get there. Fail to do that, you either give up a basket or commit a foul. Millsap will learn; he's still very young! Although short, Millsap is quite strong; when he gets smarter, he'll be fine despite only being 6'8".
Memo is definitely not a leaper, but does play good position defense in the paint against bigger players. Problem is the Laker bigs are not only long, they are very mobile. Okur is definitely not. He's very coachable and does what Sloan asks him to better than Boozer, but my impression is he has a hard time staying healthy. I'm sure the Jazz are aware of this, which is why they want to get Fes signed up before getting back into free agency. No way we want to lose Fes; if we can just get his head into how good he could be in the NBA. The man is a horse; could be a dominant C in the NBA if he'd just apply himself!!
Where the Jazz interior defense really was eaten alive is when Sloan had both Millsap and Boozer on the floor because Sloan wouldn't sub Fes for Memo! Jefferson should alleviate that. An earlier post mentioned AJ as likely being much more motivated to play D on a legit contender like the Jazz than for a team with no shot at the playoffs. That was a very good point!
Millsap is a grade-A effort guy, but hasn't yet learned the nuances of getting ideal defensive position on his man consistantly. Anticipate where your man wants to go and BE there before he can get there. Fail to do that, you either give up a basket or commit a foul. Millsap will learn; he's still very young! Although short, Millsap is quite strong; when he gets smarter, he'll be fine despite only being 6'8".
Memo is definitely not a leaper, but does play good position defense in the paint against bigger players. Problem is the Laker bigs are not only long, they are very mobile. Okur is definitely not. He's very coachable and does what Sloan asks him to better than Boozer, but my impression is he has a hard time staying healthy. I'm sure the Jazz are aware of this, which is why they want to get Fes signed up before getting back into free agency. No way we want to lose Fes; if we can just get his head into how good he could be in the NBA. The man is a horse; could be a dominant C in the NBA if he'd just apply himself!!
Ya, I'm all for the playing for a winning team could mean better performance.
I like this saying "Attitude determines altitude"
How well the Jazz can play D, depends on their attitude, and physical abilities. I believe it can make you better when you have the correct attitude.
I like this saying "Attitude determines altitude"
How well the Jazz can play D, depends on their attitude, and physical abilities. I believe it can make you better when you have the correct attitude.
David Stern
Well-Known Member
Our defense WILL be improved. It got better last season, so why can't the trend continue?
This Jazz team's window of opportunity for winning a championship will open up after the Kobe/Gasol Lakers window closes. With Kobe, Gasol, Odom, and Bynum playing at their highest levels they just have too many pieces, maybe for any team to overcome. Trying to match up with this incarnation of the Lakers will be an excercise in futility.
That being said, the Jazz have an excellent core in D-Will, AJ, and Sap. They need to add a couple more pieces to the puzzle, hopefully sooner rather than later, I would imagine it would involve moving AK and Memo. The Jazz are a stud shooting guard or small forward, and a defensive center away from being a real contender. If they can make that happen in the next 2 seasons then I imagine by 2012 the Laker's window will be closing or closed if Kobe or Gasol get injured and the Jazz will have an experienced core and will be able to make a serious run.
That being said, the Jazz have an excellent core in D-Will, AJ, and Sap. They need to add a couple more pieces to the puzzle, hopefully sooner rather than later, I would imagine it would involve moving AK and Memo. The Jazz are a stud shooting guard or small forward, and a defensive center away from being a real contender. If they can make that happen in the next 2 seasons then I imagine by 2012 the Laker's window will be closing or closed if Kobe or Gasol get injured and the Jazz will have an experienced core and will be able to make a serious run.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
It was proven game after game.
A big reason why I have continued to maintain that Fesenko (in all his rawness) had a net positive impact is that Fes played a lot of his minutes against Bynum--and Utah scored more points than the the Lakers did when Fes was on the floor in the playoffs.
Sloan probably didn't play Fes down the stretch because for some reason, he though that Millsap and Boozer matched up better against Odom and Gasol.
I respectfully disagree with this strategy. Fes sometimes followed the opposing big out to the perimeter--sometimes to a fault. I would've liked to see Fesenko out there twoard the end of the game because Millsap and Boozer DID NOT WORK. They can score, but they can't contain the paint. We already knew that before this year.
The nice thing about this year is that some combination of Jefferson, Millsap, and Okur can possibly contain the paint.
I'm possibly underestimating the impact of Bryant and the wings down the stretch. With a healthy AK and Bell, the Jazz might be better off in Q4 than with Matthews and Miles.
Sloan did'nt play Fess because he is a disaster on offense and without Okur already, the Jazz were already fighting an uphill battle there. Millsap can atleast make a 15-ft jumper to keep the defenses honest. And on the defensive end, Fess didnt block a single shot for like 3 or 4 games in a row and looked gassed(and inexperienced) 15 mins into the game. Fesenko might have been a little better than Millsap or Okur on defense but he was'nt quite Mark Eaton.
Jazz needed to make the Lakers work a little bit on defense. Otherwise we did'nt stand a chance.
And I dont think this season is any different. We have just replaced a 6-9 guy who does'nt play dfeense much with a 6-10 guy who is not known for playing much defense either. That's why I find this thread amusing.
Contend with defense? The Celtics had several 7-footers and a couple of all-NBA defense team calibre players
None of our guys would make it to the all-NBA defense team anytime soon.
(Even Deron seems to be more concerned about making Al Jefferson "an all-star" rather than goading him into becoming an all-NBA first or second team defensive player.)
The only way we ever come close to contention is if AK, Bell and Jefferson play D like mad men and if Okur doesnt get worse from previous years. Millsap will be overwhelmed even if he plays mad. And lets not forget th erebounding which will take a hit with any smaller lineup.
This recent NBA finals was all won on the boards. Lakers won the 4 games where they won on the boards. And they did it with superior size and agility, despite having a lumbering Bynum.
Jazz needed to make the Lakers work a little bit on defense. Otherwise we did'nt stand a chance.
And I dont think this season is any different. We have just replaced a 6-9 guy who does'nt play dfeense much with a 6-10 guy who is not known for playing much defense either. That's why I find this thread amusing.
Contend with defense? The Celtics had several 7-footers and a couple of all-NBA defense team calibre players
None of our guys would make it to the all-NBA defense team anytime soon.
(Even Deron seems to be more concerned about making Al Jefferson "an all-star" rather than goading him into becoming an all-NBA first or second team defensive player.)
The only way we ever come close to contention is if AK, Bell and Jefferson play D like mad men and if Okur doesnt get worse from previous years. Millsap will be overwhelmed even if he plays mad. And lets not forget th erebounding which will take a hit with any smaller lineup.
This recent NBA finals was all won on the boards. Lakers won the 4 games where they won on the boards. And they did it with superior size and agility, despite having a lumbering Bynum.
memo is money
Active Member
There are at most 2-3 teams that have better frontcourts than the Jazz. We are not getting any of promising bigs who can play BOTH SIDES of floor pretty effectively. Lakers have one of them, Bynum. Marc Gasol is not as good defensively as some fans consider. Moving on, there are players like Brook Lopez. No way in the hell Nets give up on him. I think we should expect our players to play their games, live up the the real expectations + hope that Fes will be more mature and improve his game. IMO, the only way the Jazz could improve this frontcourt by bringing Ante Tomic ,who is a way better prospect than Fes or Kosta. Okafor -"Shot blocking big man"- earns 13M per year. And he has not have a post game + just does not have any idea about how to shoot the ball. Yeah, and he is playing in the NBA. Stop this comedy. I have a hard time believing that Biedrins, Okafor etc. are upgrade over Okur. Just wowwww...