Will An Immigration Deal Get Done?

[Stoked]

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigrat...mmigration-deal-with-daca-and-border-security

Decent article.

Questions. If DC manages to get an immigration deal done how will that change Trumps historical view when taken into consideration woth tax reform?

What do you want to see in an immigration reform deal.

I want DACA, replace the lottery system with a merit based system, increase it from 500k to 750k, pathway to citizenship for illegals combined with increased deportation and of crime committing illegals (assault, arson, robbery, drugs...) and improved border security. Even though I think the wall is an inefficient and expensive way to try to tackle that.

I actually think it gets done.

 

[Gameface]

People illegally crossing the border is at the lowest point in a long time. Last I read we have zero net illegal immigration from Mexico (as many are leaving voluntarily as are coming in). The wall is not only stupid in that it won't stop illegal border crossing, will cost 10s of billions, but it addresses a non-existent problem.

The wall will be most effective in stopping regular people from crossing the border illegally and least effective in stopping drug smugglers and others crossing for explicitly illegal purposes.

We're all feeling good to okay with the tax reform right now. We don't know what the effects of it are going to be.

 

[Red]

I'm sure it can be debated, but liberal Eugene Robinson believes the merit system is just code for "white people and maybe a few Asians, instead of black people and brown people". Robinson also points out how easily manipulated Trump is, thanks in part to immigration hard liners like Steve Miller:

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opini...cle_0937e37d-1a43-5b15-a8af-5a97e435bf55.html

 

[franklin]

Unfortunately, we cannot vote for any rational candidate anymore. Like Mitt Romney.

 

[Stoked]

I'm sure it can be debated, but liberal Eugene Robinson believes the merit system is just code for "white people and maybe a few Asians, instead of black people and brown people". Robinson also points out how easily manipulated Trump is, thanks in part to immigration hard liners like Steve Miller:

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opini...cle_0937e37d-1a43-5b15-a8af-5a97e435bf55.html

I have no doubt that some will jump straight to racism as a reason to oppose this. Lame reason that lacks any convincing argument. Imo.

It’s about what’s best for America, not the people applying. It would still be a merit based system through different administrations. R and D admins.

One thing I’d personally look at if I had a hand in picking based on merit is challenges and adversities overcome. Something that would probably benefit people from “third world” countries. Like Central America, Africa and parts of Asia.

If you got two guys with roughly equal applications but one did it in clearly tougher circumstances that says something imo.

As opposed to another guy having it handed to them on a silver platter.

 

[Archie Moses]

I wish we had more people moving out of the states than moving in. Especially those who constantly bitch how bad it is and make poor reasons and comparisons.

You'll know it's that bad here when two things happen. 1) people stop wanting to move here and 2) people desperately try to leave the US.

 

[franklin]

I'm sure it can be debated, but liberal Eugene Robinson believes the merit system is just code for "white people and maybe a few Asians, instead of black people and brown people". Robinson also points out how easily manipulated Trump is, thanks in part to immigration hard liners like Steve Miller:

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opini...cle_0937e37d-1a43-5b15-a8af-5a97e435bf55.html

Trump, bless his cold little cinder of a heart, remains under the impression that he calls the shots on administration policy. Is he so engrossed in what he obviously views as his most urgent task — watching hours and hours of cable news — that he doesn’t see how he has become marginalized? Is he so dense that he doesn’t realize he’s not being served by friends and supporters, but rather being used?

Is the American public so engrossed in their own views that they don't realize we have become a mediacracy? Many of our policies have been long removed from meritocracy to mediocrity catering. Social Security and Corn Belt welfare are the two obvious examples. Now the mediocrity has finally evolved into full blown mediacracy.

Most people don't use these terms or even know them, but that's the platform Trump ran on and hit home to many who don't like our mediacracy usurping power by controlling the vote and discussion, why Trump won, why Fox News is a thing and why fake news, nuthingburger, etc. are memes.

People don't like to be told how to think. They like to be presented unbiased information and come to their own conclusions. Stuff Red posts is 99% trying to tell you how to think instead of making your own decision after the presentation. That method gave us Trump. It also gave the world Hitler. Literally, not Godwin's Law. This gave us Hitler and media pushing agenda is dictator playbook chapter 1.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Is the American public so engrossed in their own views that they don't realize we have become a mediacracy? Many of our policies have been long removed from meritocracy to mediocrity catering.

please provide a time-line, or an "era", of when America was a meritocracy.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Unfortunately, we cannot vote for any rational candidate anymore. Like Mitt Romney.

yup, i regret participating in this thread.

 

[franklin]

please provide a time-line, or an "era", of when America was a meritocracy.

I was speaking on the collective American mindset and not some philosophy on actual meritocracy (it's bull ****). Most people outside poly sci don't understand the American voting blocks or even try to understand why people vote the way they do or how we think.

Have you read Hannah Arendt? You remind me a lot like her, and she makes some good points (although 20/20 hindsight make her look plenty stupid at times). You'll enjoy her, you're welcome.

 

[Stoked]

Appears I misread part of the reported proposal. He wants to take immigration from 1 million to 500,000 total. Not a fan of that.

He wants to limit chain immigration to the spouse and minor children of an Immigrant. I'd add elderly parents and any minor children they have to that list.

Secondly I do not support capping the number of immigrants at 500,000. Part of the problem is the small number we allow to immigrate. This creates huge lines. I say we should increase total immigration to 1.5 million. A 50% increase.

That would go farther in streamlining this immigration debate IMO. And to more to embrace our immigrant past and future. We should be embracing and controlling it. Not fearing it and letting it run wild.

 

[Gameface]

The lower the number of legal immigration the higher the number of illegal immigration. No wall is going to change that.

I'm essentially in favor of unlimited and expedited immigration of any non-criminals that want to come here.

 

[Stoked]

The lower the number of legal immigration the higher the number of illegal immigration. No wall is going to change that.

I'm essentially in favor of unlimited and expedited immigration of any non-criminals that want to come here.

Agreed. The wall will affect the amount of successful crossings but the #s will adjust like you said.

I am open to even more that 1.5 million. That is just a much more realistic starting point than .5 million IMO. I do support a merit based system though. But there are lots of types of merit, it's not always a college degree.

 

[Gameface]

The problem I have with the "merit" system is that a lot of the demand for immigrants is in unskilled manual labor fields. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply of poor people ready to fill it. If they can enter legally and expeditiously they will most likely pick legal immigration. If they cannot and/or the process takes years and doesn't have a good chance of success, more will opt to enter illegally.

I don't see the U.S. as an exclusive club for the "right kind" of person. I see it as a land of liberty and opportunity.

Now, I also support limiting public assistance for immigrants. If people come here it has to be so that they can work and support themselves, not so that they can soak up sweet government benefits.

 

[Eminence]

The lower the number of legal immigration the higher the number of illegal immigration. No wall is going to change that.

I'm essentially in favor of unlimited and expedited immigration of any non-criminals that want to come here.

Agreeing very strongly with this.

 

[franklin]

The problem I have with the "merit" system is that a lot of the demand for immigrants is in unskilled manual labor fields. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply of poor people ready to fill it. If they can enter legally and expeditiously they will most likely pick legal immigration. If they cannot and/or the process takes years and doesn't have a good chance of success, more will opt to enter illegally.

I don't see the U.S. as an exclusive club for the "right kind" of person. I see it as a land of liberty and opportunity.

Now, I also support limiting public assistance for immigrants. If people come here it has to be so that they can work and support themselves, not so that they can soak up sweet government benefits.

There's no free meal and we pay in one way or another. We currently save at the grocery store but pay for it in welfare benefits. $7/hr to pick lettuce isn't supporting anyone. It's a rigged market in the farmers' favor. My solution is to allow all farm workers to unionize. Farm workers could easily get paid $30/hr and you wouldn't notice much effect on your produce bill. It would also discourage illegal immigration as those jobs would start getting soaked up by current residents.

 

[Stoked]

The problem I have with the "merit" system is that a lot of the demand for immigrants is in unskilled manual labor fields. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply of poor people ready to fill it. If they can enter legally and expeditiously they will most likely pick legal immigration. If they cannot and/or the process takes years and doesn't have a good chance of success, more will opt to enter illegally.

I don't see the U.S. as an exclusive club for the "right kind" of person. I see it as a land of liberty and opportunity.

Now, I also support limiting public assistance for immigrants. If people come here it has to be so that they can work and support themselves, not so that they can soak up sweet government benefits.

Then that has merit does it not? What we are in need of and looking for and what they can provide should all be considered. Along with education, family, culture, personal history, medical records, criminal records, age... Would "merit" be a changeable bar based on the current administration at the time a person applies? Certainly lots of questions to answer.

I'm all for dramatically increasing the #s we let in. I also agree that the process is expensive, cumbersome and generally a deterrent to applicants.

 

[Stoked]

There's no free meal and we pay in one way or another. We currently save at the grocery store but pay for it in welfare benefits. $7/hr to pick lettuce isn't supporting anyone. It's a rigged market in the farmers' favor. My solution is to allow all farm workers to unionize. Farm workers could easily get paid $30/hr and you wouldn't notice much effect on your produce bill. It would also discourage illegal immigration as those jobs would start getting soaked up by current residents.

Very much this. The "leaches" narrative often pinned on illegals is wildly misrepresented and often flat out lied about. The U.S. rakes in billions per year off of their labor and taxes.

 

[franklin]

Very much this. The "leaches" narrative often pinned on illegals is wildly misrepresented and often flat out lied about. The U.S. rakes in billions per year off of their labor and taxes.

Don't forget the overall effect that population growth has on a modern economy, especially in the economy that the world relies on to grow. We are 25% of world GDP and pull the world along behind us. If we were to stagnate like Japan and Europe is trying to then the global economy would **** itself. You'd all forget Jazzfanz and start hunting deer, ducks, squirrels, pidgeons, and muskrat pretty quickly.

The other benefit is the add-on benefit to the economy. Welfare spending has one of the highest multiplier effects there is. Where do you think those food stamp dollars go? To the grocery store clerks and stockers, the food packaging companies, the butchers and bakers, all the businesses that spring up around this, and the farmers selling all that extra food. Almost all needed welfare ends right back up in private hands one way or another and increases tax revenue.

 

[♪alt13]

Then that has merit does it not? What we are in need of and looking for and what they can provide should all be considered. Along with education, family, culture, personal history, medical records, criminal records, age... Would "merit" be a changeable bar based on the current administration at the time a person applies? Certainly lots of questions to answer.

I'm all for dramatically increasing the #s we let in. I also agree that the process is expensive, cumbersome and generally a deterrent to applicants.

Nope. I don't want the federal government trying to measure the value of a human being. Especially considering the fact that many immigrants haven't yet had the opportunity to prove their merits. That's why they're coming here and once here most pass the test in my view. Let's spend money tracking bad guys instead of picking the "best guys".

If an applicant doesn't raise alarms with Homeland Security or the justice department they should be given entrance under a probationary period. During that time they should be given equal employment opportunity and enjoy the same labor protections and wage guarantees as a citizen. After completing their probationary period it should be a simple thing for them to apply for and be granted full citizenship. It should be done today. Our country would be better for it.