Worst Move? Drafting Hayward over George or Burks over Leonard?
- Thread starter D Will Texas
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MVP
Well-Known Member
Hayward was actually better of the bench, so not sure if starting would make any positive difference. He played close to 30 min - enought time to make judgement call.
Agree that it is more difficult to evaluate Burks. It is just that Leonard is so freaking good in everything he does - shooting, defense, rebounding... Alec is more like one trick pony to me so far.
MVP
Well-Known Member
I don't think you can blame Ty for Hayward being passive and trying to be to "nice" at times. You have minutes - make most of it. See Kanter - when given minutes he was producing. Thats my major issue with Hayward - he has not played like alfa dog. Thats why I do not think he will ever be an ALL-star.
You guys think next season it is going to happen? Kanter and Burks have bigger balls and I bet they will take over leadership leaving Hayward in the same complimentary role. Which is fine - some players are just better that way.
Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
First of all, thank you for the neg rep you douche pillow.
I am only comparing points here, because you seem like someone who only cares about that:
Everyone on our team would be better off the bench because they wouldn't standing around as Al danced. Anyways, it's not even true to say Hayward was better of the bench. His first 3 games back as a starter he scored 17, 17 and then 27. Any night that he took more than 14 shot attempts, he scored at least 17, sometimes well above in the high 20's.
https://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/4249/gordon-hayward
Paul George played more minutes, was higher in the pecking order of his offense. I mean the dude had games where he took 27 shots (averaged 14.9 attempts a night, which remember is always at least 17 pts for Hayward)! The most shot attempts Hayward had in a night was 18 (and only averaged 10.7 attempts a night). Of course George will put up All Star numbers with that many shot attempts.
https://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/4251/paul-george
George's minutes were consistent this season, Hayward's came in spurts, and in many different rotations. I firmly believe Hayward is the better player. Their Per 36's are almost the same, so why are you crying? If you think the Jazz ****ed up, go be a Pacers fan. I think the Jazz ****ed up a lot recently, but drafting Hayward was one of their smarter moves.
Agree. It's easy to blame Corbin, because he isn't a great coach, but Hayward has to have some level of self-motivation. We see Hayward have good games in the Jazz system, then he has some games where he takes 6 shots. That is on Hayward not being aggressive.
I agree with most of what you say, but you have to admit that it seems like Hayward is reluctant to try to shoot the ball, especially if he is missing early. I hate chuckers, but you have to admire someone like George who knows he has to go out there and stay aggressive for his team to win. Hayward doesn't have the same mentality at this stage.
b_line
Well-Known Member
The guy is 21 years old. I think he has plenty of aggression. I don't know many players who have come into the league and dominated in their first year or two, or even three. Kobe took a few years, most guys do. The guys that don't were like Jordan, Magic, Larry, guys with more college experience. I really think what we will see from Hayward next year will be more similar to what he will be at his peak, which is like 5 years away still. The kid is going to be good, he is still young. Other than LeBron, I can't think of a player that came into the league without much experience dominating right away. Hayward is not going to be all world, but he will be pretty good. I hold out hope that he will be assertive and aggressive this coming season, especially without Mo and Jefferturd.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Nobody is crying first of all. You can believe whatever you want but unfortunately world wide sports media does not. Thats why George is all star and MIP and Hayward not.
Per 36min are nice to look if you checking points only but you ignoring the fact that George is better athlete, better passer, much better rebounder, better defender and plus couple inches taller. Not sure what advantages you see in Hayward to declare him better. I am not saying Jazz ... ed up as they ended up with nice player in Hayward, but only very optimistic Jazz fans are thinking that Hayward is better then George ( nothing wrong in being a bit biased - as fans we favor and overrate our players ) - ask rest of the world and you will get same results as for MIP voting.
b_line
Well-Known Member
George was also given the greenlight ant 38 minutes per game. He was the sole offensive centerpiece of that team with Danny Granger out with injuries. I think Hayward could be that guy too. He is probably a little better passer, so he would get a few more assists, but he could be very good.
MVP
Well-Known Member
He turned 23 in March.
Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
is it really? Or is it on a pressure to feed Al? I vividly remember the halftime reports where the coaches would say "we're doing good/bad, but we need to do a better job pushing the ball into Al so he can go to work" (paraphrasing). It seems like that was everybody's job. His own shot attempts were usually on fast breaks, or towards the end of the shot clock when the first three options had failed. I think his lack of shot attempts was due more to the design (or lack thereof) of our offense this season then his aggressiveness.
b_line
Well-Known Member
For their careers, Hayward has been the better passer. I would say if anything, Hayward has a slight edge in passing, but it is roughly the same. Paul George is more athletic and a better rebounder. I would not say that George is a significantly better defender. Hayward can handle the ball better, and Hayward is a significantly better shooter. In fact, he shoots 5% better from three point land. That is the difference between ok and great three point shooting. The numbers do not support that George is better than Hayward at this point.
b_line
Well-Known Member
haha, they grow up so quick! my bad... He is still young though, and his peak is like 3-4 years away.
Hayward has the green light too. Have you ever seen Hayward get pulled from the game for shooting? On the contrary, he gets pulled and sat for longer than usual when he isn't shooting.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
I will grant you that I may have a bias, and I agree that George is a good player and deserving of this praise. I'm just saying that Hayward hasn't been given the same situation, and as such people shouldn't judge him for the decisions of others (coaches' offense and rotations). His shot attempts has more to do with the design of our offense than his aggressiveness. George and Hayward are the exact same height (6"8), but George has 11 LBS on him. Hayward is a great defender in his own right, good lateral speed, and has a Lebron like chase down block (remember his end of season shut down of Kobe in his rookie year?). Also, I think the evidence is there for Hayward being a great distributor as well.
b_line
Well-Known Member
since when 2.4 is better then 2.7?
How about their playoff numbers?
Hayward gets more assists per minute. Look at the per 36 numbers. Hayward, 3.6 assists. George 3.2. in my book, 3.6 > 3.2. That is why Hayward is a better passer, but only slightly so. Again, the per 36 numbers do not support that George is significantly better at this point. Wait a couple years, and we will see. If George turns out to be Clyde Drexler reincarnate, then you have a case. If they both have similar production still in a couple years, then you can't really call that draft a mistake.
b_line
Well-Known Member
So what is Hayward's job when he runs the offense? His job is to get the ball on the wing, look for an entry pass to the post, and then pass it back to Mo. The coaches rave about how successful he has been at it, but all they asked him to do was run that play like 3 times a game. When I say George has been given the greenlight, I mean that he is the teams primary offense. Everything goes through him. On the Jazz, that weapon is Al, Mo, Foye and Millsap. Hayward was the fifth option. He might not get pulled when he shoots, but to say that the team runs through him is a joke.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna do an ******* thing and leave a comment to this thread without having read any previous comments. Apologies.
...
1. I'm stone deaf to any arguments that Hayward has been better than George over the first 3 years of their careers. George has been better. There are plenty of circumstances outside of the players' control which have led to this outcome (team issues, conferences, etc.), but it's also the case that George came into the league with a better set of personal tools to find an established niche and succeed. He's been better.
2. Once you get over the past and evaluate each player going forward, then I get more and more happy with Hayward. I think after next year it will be a debate again. I think Hayward can play more roles than George, and I think his more-central role next year will demonstrate this. George will have more rebounds, but Hayward will have more assists. George will play on a better team (and, thus, have more protection). I think their scoring per 36 should be pretty similar.
3. Kawhi has thrived in a highly structured environment. He's exactly the kind of player I wish the jazz had: lockdown perimeter defense, good in transition, can **** you up with a 3pnt shot, etc. That said, we don't know what we have in Burks (the Jazz can be blamed for this). So, we can't make this evaluation yet. This judgment could be like the George-Hayward judgment: Kawhi wins hands-down in his first three years, then Burks makes the debate relevant.
...
1. I'm stone deaf to any arguments that Hayward has been better than George over the first 3 years of their careers. George has been better. There are plenty of circumstances outside of the players' control which have led to this outcome (team issues, conferences, etc.), but it's also the case that George came into the league with a better set of personal tools to find an established niche and succeed. He's been better.
2. Once you get over the past and evaluate each player going forward, then I get more and more happy with Hayward. I think after next year it will be a debate again. I think Hayward can play more roles than George, and I think his more-central role next year will demonstrate this. George will have more rebounds, but Hayward will have more assists. George will play on a better team (and, thus, have more protection). I think their scoring per 36 should be pretty similar.
3. Kawhi has thrived in a highly structured environment. He's exactly the kind of player I wish the jazz had: lockdown perimeter defense, good in transition, can **** you up with a 3pnt shot, etc. That said, we don't know what we have in Burks (the Jazz can be blamed for this). So, we can't make this evaluation yet. This judgment could be like the George-Hayward judgment: Kawhi wins hands-down in his first three years, then Burks makes the debate relevant.
DutchJazzer
Banned
product of absence of alfense.