Would you trade ...

[NUMBERICA]

His PER is an entire point higher... is that substantially? He is essentially the same player.

He is also surrounded by more offensive talent in Orlando than Hood is in Utah (especially w/ Gobert's injury and Rubio coming to Utah). Orlando also plays at a faster pace.

Oh come on.

Per 100 possessions, PER, AST%, eFG% are pace adjusted.

Fournier is better in nearly every statistal category, and by large (assist-rate) to staggering amounts in some (pace adjusted on/off court +/-). I forgot to mention a better VORP and twice the win shares per 48.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Hood is playing the 6th man role on a team so depleted of offensive talent and scoring he has to take a ton of shots. He is playing a much harder role than Fournier is.

Fournier plays on a team w/ a lot of other guys who can create their own offense (Gordon/Vucevic/Payton/Simmons). Not saying those are great dudes, and Orlando has had their own injuries issues, but it's more than what Utah has (which is currently just Mitchell and Hood, who Quin is forced to play separately so he can have someone who can get their own shot on the court at all times)

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Oh come on.

Per 100 possessions, PER, AST%, eFG% are pace adjusted.

Fournier is better in nearly every statistal category, and by large (assist-rate) to staggering amounts in some (pace adjusted on/off court +/-).

Again, the PER is a staggering (sarcasm) difference of 1.

I'm not going to take things like +/- seriously when Hood has to play on a bad team's 2nd unit because of their lack of scoring options and the fact that NBA politics dictates Utah has to try and make this Rubio thing work out since they used a first round pick to get him.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Hood is playing the 6th man role on a team so depleted of offensive talent and scoring he has to take a ton of shots. He is playing a much harder role than Fournier is.

Fournier plays on a team w/ a lot of other guys who can create their own offense (Gordon/Vucevic/Payton/Simmons). Not saying those are great dudes, and Orlando has had their own injuries issues, but it's more than what Utah has (which is currently just Mitchell and Hood, who Quin is forced to play separately so he can have someone who can get their own shot on the court at all times)

I get that he's your boy.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Again, the PER is a staggering (sarcasm) difference of 1.

I'm not going to take things like +/- seriously when Hood has to play on a bad team's 2nd unit because of their lack of scoring options and the fact that NBA politics dictates Utah has to try and make this Rubio thing work out since they used a first round pick to get him.

Yeah dude, just ignore nearly every statistical measurement. You are cherry-picking everything about this and substantially changing figures.

Have a little intellectual honesty.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yeah dude, just ignore nearly every statistical measurement. That's the way.

The stats say they are basically the same. Plus, you can't just take stats at face value, you have to think about the factors that influence them. Like who Hood is playing with (rarely gets to play w/ Utah's best player) vs Fournier (most of his minutes are going to be shared w/ the Magic's other best players)
The eye test says Hood is better. Just watch Fournier on defense, trust me he is worse than Hood.

Then you factor in Hood has 2 years less experience.
You factor in Hood will likely cost less next year.
You factor in Hood will likely have more years of contract control.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And have we not seen Utah's system is not kind to assist? Have we not seen Rubio's assist drop drastically when coming to Utah? So are we really going to act like Fournier having higher assist stats is some "Eureka!" moment for Fournier against Hood?

 

[NUMBERICA]

The stats say they are basically the same.

They don't. I promise they don't. That **** adds up. Especially factoring that Fournier has better offensive +/- and defensive +/- BY A LOT.

Furthermore, does Hood play well with Mitchell?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Have a little intellectual honesty.

You are talking about intellectual honesty when you framed a point difference in PER as being substantially higher?

 

[NUMBERICA]

And have we not seen Utah's system is not kind to assist? Have we not seen Rubio's assist drop drastically when coming to Utah? So are we really going to act like Fournier having higher assist stats is some "Eureka!" moment for Fournier against Hood?

The Jazz system takes ballhandling duties away from PGs and distributes them to wings. That, and Rubio is easier and easier to scout.

 

[NUMBERICA]

You are talking about intellectual honesty when you framed a point difference in PER as being substantially higher?

Jesus you're pedantic. It is substantial, it isn't massive. It's also much closer to 2 than 1 (nearly twice the difference). It's not nothing, and that this is where you hang your hat is very revealing to the weakness of your argument, which consists of mostly excuses.

EDIT: it's 1.3, thought it was 1.7. Whoops. So Hood still has a worse PER on top of everything else.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

They don't. I promise they don't. That **** adds up. Especially factoring that Fournier has better offensive +/- and defensive +/- BY A LOT.

Furthermore, does Hood play well with Mitchell?

So there are no other factors at play?

This being Hood's first year in a high usage role (higher than anything Fournier has sniffed) doesnt factor in?

Hood barely getting to play w/ Mitchell doesnt factor in (less than half his total minutes)? And yes, they havent played particularly well together, but I think that's largely due to how little they play together.

You can't just look at stats and make sweeping conclusions if we are talking about intellectual honesty.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Jesus you're pedantic. It is substantial, it isn't massive. It's also much closer to 2 than 1 (nearly twice the difference). It's not nothing, and that this is where you hang your hat is very revealing to the weakness of your argument, which consists of mostly excuses.

EDIT: it's 1.3, thought it was 1.7. Whoops. So Hood still has a worse PER on top of everything else.

It's exactly 1.06 according to ESPN.

 

[NUMBERICA]

So there are no other factors at play?

This being Hood's first year in a high usage role (higher than anything Fournier has sniffed) doesnt factor in?

Hood barely getting to play w/ Mitchell doesnt factor in (less than half his total minutes)? And yes, they havent played particularly well together, but I think that's largely due to how little they play together.

You can't just look at stats and make sweeping conclusions if we are talking about intellectual honesty.

We can start to if the numbers uniformly paint the same picture.

 

[NUMBERICA]

It's exactly 1.06 according to ESPN.

Ok

 

[NUMBERICA]

Given all factors (mostly that I'm up arguing with Cy when I should've been asleep hours ago), this is one of the dumbest things I've ever participated in on this site, and that says something.

Okay cool bye.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

We can start to if the numbers uniformly paint the same picture.

They do. Hood plays a higher usage role on a more offensively challenged team, thus his numbers look worse from an efficiency perspective.

He is also removed from the team's best offensive player due to those offensive challenges because they play a PG who can't score and feel the need to stick w/ him because they spent a first round pick to get him.

Not to mention, Utah's best player and leader from last year has been hurt most of the year.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Maybe I’m greedy, but I’d try to trade Rubio, Jerebko and picks for Fournier. . . and then I still keep Hood as my 6th man. Can’t have too many good shooters.

 

[LoPo]

Cy - how can you bash my trade idea when Stan Van Gundy said the following:

- we need a PG
- most other teams won't trade their PG
- our financial situation is fine
- we are in win now mode

Rubio for Kennard, Marjanovic and a non-guaranteed is exactly the type trade we should pursue. Here is why for Detroit:

- gets them a PG SVG needs
- Rubio helps them win more than any of those 3
- the trade only adds $5 million to next year even though SVG said the financial situation is fine
- Rubio isn't perfect, but he is more ready now than Kennard

Sometimes, you just want to argue without reading the signs and interviews. I bet we won't trade Rubio more than Detroit doesn't want this trade.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8glfv2a

If this trade is proposed, are the Jazz giving up a 2nd round to get Bazemore or are the Hawks giving up a 2nd round pick to get off Bazemore's final year? I'm so confused as to what his value is.

I think we could get a second in that deal. They have a ton of picks this year. 3 in the first and multiple seconds. The cap space in three years would be valuable. Room next year can’t hurt.