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Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

So, did this happen?

Trouts boss wouldn't give him the time off.


I ain't in no moo-lisha, nor do I care to drive out there to confirm what I already believe. I've heard what I consider valuable information from both sides and it is what it is. Also, I like being alive, so I think I'll just stay away from the piles of psychos that are congregated down there.

Also, I think Peeks would probably kill me before the psychos got a chance.
 
I ain't in no moo-lisha, nor do I care to drive out there to confirm what I already believe. I've heard what I consider valuable information from both sides and it is what it is. Also, I like being alive, so I think I'll just stay away from the piles of psychos that are congregated down there.

Also, I think Peeks would probably kill me before the psychos got a chance.

Lol

Also there have been no reports of violence amoungst the protestors. All they do is yell at the BLM.
 
It's pretty free from a social aspect, although the whole NSA thing and patriot act stuff isn't that cool for me. Most of my concerns are economically where an industry of rent seeking does nothing but reallocate existing resources. I view freedom as being able to use my money as I please, while the government dictates how a lot of it is spent.

But I'm not going to say my way is more right than anyone else's because as individuals we each have out own ideal state. I would just like mine to be even more free and tons more economically efficient.

I just don't care for a large government, and if one examines the growth of our government over time I'm going to guess that it's nowhere near proportionate to population growth and real GDP

Babe would be the dude to ask about this tbh

You'll have to give me some examples of rent seekers that you take issue with.

On taxes, I really don't GAF how they tax and spend as long as it's not oppressive, moral hazard is minimized, and most importantly it fosters a strong economy where private sector has an opportunity to go out there and collect the cash. Taxes are an investment if policy is done well.

As a side note, I think allowing labor to empower themselves again would lower the need for some tax burdens and git the gubbmint out are lives. Why is it the ones who claim to be for small government and freedom to associate are the same ones attacking unions of people acting together freely? (that's rhetorical)
 
I have mixed feelings about it all. I don't want the Bundy's to be given an inch IF they don't deserve it. I didn't like the way the feds started this thing out, I loved the support the 'little man' got, but as I've said earlier, I want the correct and reaponsible outcome.

I don't want Americans to believe they can assemble with guns and whomever has the most firepower wins.. that's certainly not a sustainable or responsible enterprise (duh). I also don't want elected officials to feel they have power over the people.. rather than to serve the people.

That's the outcome I wanted for this. To have the feds acknowledge they handled it wrong up front and do an internal investigation and provide findings to the people as to what they were thinking/intending. To seek a way to allow both sides to win.. and if such a way isn't reasonably found, to take the land from Bundy (swiftly) with a detailed plan in place as to what is to be done with it. If nothing, fine.. but if there is an intended purpose, be transparent about it.

I mainly hope we learn something, grow from it, and be better for it.

I honestly don't understand why you dont' support the government's actions here then. It sounds like they've been trying to get him to pay his fees or move off the land for over 15 years. It's not like they got a court order yesterday and showed up with the cavalry. The fact that everyone knew where and when the Feds would be when they seized cattle tells me that they didn't exactly make it a secret when they were coming to take Bundy's property away. And obviously they showed up with force plainly insufficient to get the job done given how it turned out. If anything the government showed restraint in not escalating, probably because no one wants to defend the use of lethal force over some dumb cattle.

At some point in time seizing property is the legal way to get this done. It's how virtually every judgment in America gets enforced when it's not voluntarily paid. The feds involved are just regular people who were doing their jobs, and having a critical mass of heavily armed militia members aiming at them from the overpasses to defend what amounts to a tax protester is ludicrously unpredictable.

I understand it was probably fun to be there. Angry Mobs are traditionally a good time. But this was not the most noble of causes.
 
You'll have to give me some examples of rent seekers that you take issue with.

On taxes, I really don't GAF how they tax and spend as long as it's not oppressive, moral hazard is minimized, and most importantly it fosters a strong economy where private sector has an opportunity to go out there and collect the cash. Taxes are an investment if policy is done well.

As a side note, I think allowing labor to empower themselves again would lower the need for some tax burdens and git the gubbmint out are lives. Why is it the ones who claim to be for small government and freedom to associate are the same ones attacking unions of people acting together freely? (that's rhetorical)

I'm opposed to all rent seeking. Don't think there'd be any ones I support

The way I look at taxes is the government saying that they can spend your money better than you can. True in some cases, but I'd like to think that they're wrong in my case.

As far as unions and all that ish are concerned, yeah, I'm totally against them because it messes with the labor market just like minimum wage mandates do. They're not opposed to the workers rigjts of peaceful assembly, just opposed to the unproductive behavior. Most of us would say, "hey, don't like your job? Get a different one." If that's the best job one can get and they're upset about it, use it as motivation to learn a new skill or get educated. Lol you can see why libertarians are not popular

It would tough to implement my libertarian ideals into the modern state because the government is involved everywhere and removing government aid someplace while keeping it consistent would be unfair and create all kinds of new market distortions. Alternatively, if government were to be stripped down to the size I prefer overnight, there'd be all kinds of people in dire financial situations because the government has made it their duty to assist people for so long
 
No, from what I gather he paid "Clark County" until BLM came in and said they could break the terms of the "lease" and that Bundy had to pay them instead.

So when Countrywide Home Loans sells my mortgage to Quicken, I can just keep sending my payments to Countrywide? Of course, they won't accept the payment, kind of like how Clark county wouldn't accept Bundy's, but who cares. I can totally get out of paying Quicken because I hate the Cavalier's.
 
You are wrong on so many levels. Over 60% of Utah land is owned by the federal government, and it is a similar ratio in most of the West. Grazing rights may be gained on private real property by a prescriptive easement or by adverse possession. It does not apply to government owned land (federal, state, municipal...). If Bundy was allowed to graze on federal land, it was because it was allowed (gov't chose to not stop it). Much of this land was acquired early in the history of the United States as a result of purchases, wars, or treaties made with foreign countries. The federal government used this land to encourage growth, settlement, and economic development.

The sheer fact that grazing rights were never codified for many years caused a plethora of range wars to start in the West. However, in 1934, the Taylor Grazing Act formally set out the federal government's powers and policy on grazing federal lands by establishing the Division of Grazing and procedures for issuing permits to graze federal lands for a fixed period of time. The Division of Grazing was renamed the US Grazing Service in 1939 and then merged in 1946 with the General Land Office to become the Bureau of Land Management, which along with the United States Forest Service oversees public lands grazing in 16 western states today. Some grazing land was homesteaded, but not much in the West. Today, the federal government employs principles of land use planning and environmental protection to preserve the natural resources and scenic beauty found on public land. The land in question is unequivocally owned by the federal government. Permits have been issued here before the BLM existed. And yes, it sucks if they aren't improving the land as they said they would, but it is public land, and I would HOPE the government charges a business to use it.

In regards to principles of ex post facto laws, you are wrong as well. Laws can always change, but they apply prospectively. Here is a hypothetical: lets say grazing on federal lands was legal for 50 years but illegalized today. If you kept grazing tomorrow, you would be breaking the law and subject to penalty. The fact is, the law was never codified before the Taylor act, but when it was first grazed by Bundy's family it was a federal territory, subject to their control. And permanent grazing rights were never established, that is a large part in what allowed two district courts to rule the cattle could be removed.

Basic constitution courses should be taught to everyone somewhere between middle and high school. It is so sad what so many people incorrectly believe regarding basic constitutional rights.

Pretty clear you have no idea what the Constitution says or means. Pretty clear you work for the government, have been indoctrinated by government administrators, and public schools, and state-supported propaganda retailers like PBS. Pretty clear you got your basic moral instruction from Sesame Street.

Probably nobody could recite the details of the grazing law as you do without Wikipedia perhaps but most likely from a point of view inside the BLM.

Now don't get me wrong. You're not unusual. Your point of view is likely the same as most Americans today with the same info base. Most BLM folks are decent human beings who have families and live fairly responsible lives. You represent the "Status Quo" in a sense, an unfortuante socialized American Status Quo that is not critical enough of the direction we are going.

Most ranchers have more or less accepted the primary tenets of law as they have been presented to them, in gradual revisions over time, by government administrators because they thought that was the Law, and they thought their government was doing basically good stuff. Even I myself, when I drive by one of those BLM signs "Your public lands" experience a sort of warm fuzzy feel-good like maybe it is land that does belong to the "people".

Where you are all wrong, as in totally..... abysmally. . . . tin hat wrong. . . . is in think your government today is either law-abiding or acting in the public interest. The American Cowboy is being rounded up and put out of business, on purpose, in order to clear the humans off the land, by an occupying totalitarian fascist state apparatus. . . which hires ordinary folks like you and feeds you a lot of feel-good BS while you are being told to help "manage the peoples' lands".

The Bundy grazing range was a titled grazing right. Until the unconstitutional provisions of the Taylor Grazing Act were enacted by an ignorant and socialist-indoctrinated Congress, courts were regularly recogjnizing existing grazers as having an established interest in the land, and the water they were using. It was unfit under the Homestead Act for settlement because of insufficient water to settle the land for agricultural purposes. Its first grazing use was under Mormon socialist principles as a Mormon community grazed it communally. Later, the involved families divided the use among themselves.

Mormons were conscripted by the Federal government to help fight the Mexican War where the United States took title to this land under the ensuing treaty, and today the Mexican governments' public schools are teaching their kids that the US govt stole the land from them. They, however, never "owned" this land. It was occupied and claimed by the Paiute indians, related to the Shoshone indians of Nevada, who today still assert a legal claim to the Nevada lands under federal "ownership". The US govt has literally thousands of broken treaties with American indians.

The US govt does not have a constitutional right to hold lands, as this was not a delegated power under the original Cojnstitution, and there has never been an appropriate amendment giving the US federal govt. that power. An act of Congress has presumed that power, but it is not constitutional. It is the State that should administer these lands, not the Federal government, and it should most appropriately be the various counties that enact land-use codes and environmental statutes, or impose regulations affecting users of these lands.

Harry Reid, as I understand it, used his influence with Barack Obama in the selection of the BLM chief during this administration. Harry Reid is interested in converting the use of this land, in a neat little two-step, to a huge solar power development. First, they have to get Bundy off. Then a lot of big wigs will have a lot of high-priced negotiations/dinners/etc etc in swank Vegas resorts, and a new deal will be signed. President Barack Obama wants to make this part of his "green" legacy.

The solar plant will be frying overflying birds, like endangered raptors, even Golden Eagles, as well as geese and ducks aiming for the marshes in the Virgin River beds and Lake Mead. The turtles will we utterly destroyed off this land. The solar panels will be presenting glare problems to people who try to go on a desert hike in the Valley of Fire and the Grand Canyon Nartional Monument.

About the only "green" aspect of this whole project will be the money that changes hands between corporatists.

If you really want to keep your credentials as a human being, you will need to resign your BLM job.
 
Pretty clear you have no idea what the Constitution says or means. Pretty clear you work for the government, have been indoctrinated by government administrators, and public schools, and state-supported propaganda retailers like PBS. Pretty clear you got your basic moral instruction from Sesame Street.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Bob Ross is selling propaganda by talking to the trees? Bill Nye the Science Guy is selling propaganda by teaching tens of millions of children that science can be fun? Good hell, Babe.

Also, if everyone's moral instruction came from Sesame Street, the world would never know war, hunger and famine would be a thing of the past, and race would be a four letter word.
 
As far as unions and all that ish are concerned, yeah, I'm totally against them because it messes with the labor market just like minimum wage mandates do. They're not opposed to the workers rigjts of peaceful assembly, just opposed to the unproductive behavior. Most of us would say, "hey, don't like your job? Get a different one." If that's the best job one can get and they're upset about it, use it as motivation to learn a new skill or get educated. Lol you can see why libertarians are not popular

You do realize the reason the libertarian utopia is not popular is not because of this message, but because libertarianism fails in practice? (we tried it in the 1800's)

Also, I how does outlawing unions lines up with libertarian philosophy. Your brand seeks a society with no checks on capital. Am I missing something?
 
I honestly don't understand why you dont' support the government's actions here then. It sounds like they've been trying to get him to pay his fees or move off the land for over 15 years. It's not like they got a court order yesterday and showed up with the cavalry. The fact that everyone knew where and when the Feds would be when they seized cattle tells me that they didn't exactly make it a secret when they were coming to take Bundy's property away. And obviously they showed up with force plainly insufficient to get the job done given how it turned out. If anything the government showed restraint in not escalating, probably because no one wants to defend the use of lethal force over some dumb cattle.

At some point in time seizing property is the legal way to get this done. It's how virtually every judgment in America gets enforced when it's not voluntarily paid. The feds involved are just regular people who were doing their jobs, and having a critical mass of heavily armed militia members aiming at them from the overpasses to defend what amounts to a tax protester is ludicrously unpredictable.

I understand it was probably fun to be there. Angry Mobs are traditionally a good time. But this was not the most noble of causes.

Because you lack the full understanding.. the Bundy's had entitlements to the land when it was destined for statehood, but lost them (according to government) when the feds decided to keep them federal lands and thereby abandoning the rights of the Bundy's. I am FAR from convinced that the Bundy's are in the right, but I am also not convinced the courts have reached the right decision.

.... but as I have said, MANY times, it's more about the spending and gross over-display of power to remove Bundy from the land.

You cannot deny that the above isn't true (nobody is denying that, really). It's taxpayer money, not monopoly money, that is being spent to bring in armored vehicles, 100's of agents, drones, jammers, etc.. all to arrest a guy that is riding his ranch on horseback, not barricading himself in his home.
 
I'm merging the two threads that are both about Bundy Ranch. Probably should have been done awhile ago. Sorry for any short-term confusion regarding the post history.
 
Because you lack the full understanding..

Or I'm looking at it with fresh eyes instead of having spent time with some guys and decided I liked them so I must support their legal position.

the Bundy's had entitlements to the land when it was destined for statehood,

So right off the bat this appears to be incorrect.

It appears that the Bundy family or their forebears first settled the land either in 1877(per the Washington post) or the early 1880s (this is what was reported by the Atlantic and a host of other news outlets).

Nevada became a state in 1864. Furthermore, it appears the Nevada State Constitution, written as it was during the US Civil War, very explicitly grants that paramount allegiance is owed to the USFG rather than to the state and further explicitly states that the USFG can use armed force within Nevada to enforce its laws.

As a result of the laws of time and space, it appears impossible that Bundy's forebears have a claim on the land prior to the state being granted statehood. Additionally, it appears that the Nevada state government, which Bundy swears allegiance to, explicitly endorses the fed's actions. Furthermore, while the Bundy's have claimed Homestead rights, I can't find any applicable homestead act applicable to Nevada in U.S. history.

but lost them (according to government) when the feds decided to keep them federal lands and thereby abandoning the rights of the Bundy's.

Here is the assumption you're making: that the Bundy's had rights to the land in the first place. In looking through the court documents, it appears that the US Government held title to the land as public lands as far back as 1848.

Although I'm sympathetic to rules regarding adverse possession, that's an argument the government is immune to and has been for decades and decades.

I am FAR from convinced that the Bundy's are in the right, but I am also not convinced the courts have reached the right decision.

Luckily there are federal judges who have that job.

.... but as I have said, MANY times, it's more about the spending and gross over-display of power to remove Bundy from the land.

They gave him 20 years to clear off the land. How much more lenient with the guy do you expect them to be?

And again, they obviously didn't bring force sufficient to do the job. How is that a gross over-display of power if you came underarmed and couldn't complete the task?

You cannot deny that the above isn't true (nobody is denying that, really).

I thought it was kind of easy actually.

It's taxpayer money, not monopoly money, that is being spent to bring in armored vehicles, 100's of agents, drones, jammers, etc.. all to arrest a guy that is riding his ranch on horseback, not barricading himself in his home.

Well let's be clear here, it's to seize the property of a guy that owes the taxpayers in excess of $1 million. Additionally, the BLM intended to assess to Bundy the cost of rounding up his cattle after two decades of non-compliance (probably by selling his cattle). This was going to be a civil asset forfeiture situation, not a general fund situation.
 
I honestly don't understand why you dont' support the government's actions here then. It sounds like they've been trying to get him to pay his fees or move off the land for over 15 years. It's not like they got a court order yesterday and showed up with the cavalry. The fact that everyone knew where and when the Feds would be when they seized cattle tells me that they didn't exactly make it a secret when they were coming to take Bundy's property away. And obviously they showed up with force plainly insufficient to get the job done given how it turned out. If anything the government showed restraint in not escalating, probably because no one wants to defend the use of lethal force over some dumb cattle.

At some point in time seizing property is the legal way to get this done. It's how virtually every judgment in America gets enforced when it's not voluntarily paid. The feds involved are just regular people who were doing their jobs, and having a critical mass of heavily armed militia members aiming at them from the overpasses to defend what amounts to a tax protester is ludicrously unpredictable.

I understand it was probably fun to be there. Angry Mobs are traditionally a good time. But this was not the most noble of causes.

I know of a lot of worthless "judgments" passed out by courts against defendants who lost the case legally, maybe morally, but were just weasly enough to know how to have no assets worth seizing.

The Bundy's didn't resort to any of the tactics often used by people/companies/defendants, as far as I can tell. If, for example, using the advance notice of the fed roundup, they had driven out the day before and gotten the cows and trucked them to some buyer, who say bought them for cold hard silver coin. . . . which was never going to see the light of day in Bundy's lifetime. . . . well, the feds would have, perhaps, executed a lien on his home and private land. . . something they will likely do, eventually anyway. . .

The Bundys stand in this case is for a vision of freedom, liberty, and our country where people actually have rights, and are not treated by the gov as if they were cattle.

Liberals don't get it, because they are, at an intellectual level, willing to be cattle.
 
I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Bob Ross is selling propaganda by talking to the trees? Bill Nye the Science Guy is selling propaganda by teaching tens of millions of children that science can be fun? Good hell, Babe.

Also, if everyone's moral instruction came from Sesame Street, the world would never know war, hunger and famine would be a thing of the past, and race would be a four letter word.

Look, when you're trying to rouse your kids in the morning, the day you want to go fishing, I bet you yell a little, and maybe use a few four letter words yourself.

I've done my time watching Sesame Street. Yah, it is soft socialism almost like an LDS sunday school. It dials the human brain to "off" and parents let their kids sit in the dark, mesmerized, while the sun is shining outside and birds are chirping, and the fish are biting.

uhhhhhmmmm........ never mind. . . . I see your point.

Let the kids sit in the dark and go drown your worms.
 
Or I'm looking at it with fresh eyes instead of having spent time with some guys and decided I liked them so I must support their legal position.



So right off the bat this appears to be incorrect.

It appears that the Bundy family or their forebears first settled the land either in 1877(per the Washington post) or the early 1880s (this is what was reported by the Atlantic and a host of other news outlets).

Nevada became a state in 1864. Furthermore, it appears the Nevada State Constitution, written as it was during the US Civil War, very explicitly grants that paramount allegiance is owed to the USFG rather than to the state and further explicitly states that the USFG can use armed force within Nevada to enforce its laws.

As a result of the laws of time and space, it appears impossible that Bundy's forebears have a claim on the land prior to the state being granted statehood. Additionally, it appears that the Nevada state government, which Bundy swears allegiance to, explicitly endorses the fed's actions. Furthermore, while the Bundy's have claimed Homestead rights, I can't find any applicable homestead act applicable to Nevada in U.S. history.



Here is the assumption you're making: that the Bundy's had rights to the land in the first place. In looking through the court documents, it appears that the US Government held title to the land as public lands as far back as 1848.

Although I'm sympathetic to rules regarding adverse possession, that's an argument the government is immune to and has been for decades and decades.



Luckily there are federal judges who have that job.



They gave him 20 years to clear off the land. How much more lenient with the guy do you expect them to be?

And again, they obviously didn't bring force sufficient to do the job. How is that a gross over-display of power if you came underarmed and couldn't complete the task?



I thought it was kind of easy actually.



Well let's be clear here, it's to seize the property of a guy that owes the taxpayers in excess of $1 million. Additionally, the BLM intended to assess to Bundy the cost of rounding up his cattle after two decades of non-compliance (probably by selling his cattle). This was going to be a civil asset forfeiture situation, not a general fund situation.

I will address this when time permits, but I will say, for now, that I have some timeline issues... but much more importantly you, like many others are grossly missing the point due, mostly, to taking at face value what the media is feeding.
 
I feel more free and secure as ever, and see democracy as becoming more deeply engrained into society on a world wide basis. Can someone explain the thinking behind this? It's cliche.

I know how to round up cattle without even using a horse.

First of all, I put the water trough in a corral, and then I put all the hay there, too.

The cows all feel very secure, as secure as ever, when they go in there to laze about in the sunshine.

The real way to judge how free you are is by knowing whether you're in charge of the operation, or somebody else is. American voters??? Do you really think the voting public runs this country??

well, so far as I'm concerned, it's time for us to just start doing that again. First of all we have to fire the Spanish corporation that is counting our votes. . . . Let me know how that goes, Frank.
 
The Bundys stand in this case is for a vision of freedom, liberty, and our country where people actually have rights, and are not treated by the gov as if they were cattle.

Liberals don't get it, because they are, at an intellectual level, willing to be cattle.

Thanks for your input, Thriller. The Bundy's aren't Ghandi. They aren't Nelson Mandela. They aren't Joseph Smith. Stop trying to use them as a platform for your crazy ideals. Even their most ardent supporter willfully admits that the Bundy's are in the wrong. I am all for standing up for your beliefs, but holy ****, at least do it when you have a leg to stand on.

Look, when you're trying to rouse your kids in the morning, the day you want to go fishing, I bet you yell a little, and maybe use a few four letter words yourself.

I've done my time watching Sesame Street. Yah, it is soft socialism almost like an LDS sunday school. It dials the human brain to "off" and parents let their kids sit in the dark, mesmerized, while the sun is shining outside and birds are chirping, and the fish are biting.

uhhhhhmmmm........ never mind. . . . I see your point.

Let the kids sit in the dark and go drown your worms.

Wow. I fish because I enjoy it. I watch certain tv shows because I enjoy them. My kids do certain things and watch certain shows because they enjoy them. Every Sunday, Sloan and I watch The Joy of Painting and it is amazing how much my six year old has learned. Not to mention the quality time we spend watching, discussing, and joking about his hair. I guess I should somehow feel bad that my kids watch tv? Well, Cap'n Ludite, I'd wager that you spend more time online watching conspiracy videos, rubbing one out to Alex Jones' Info Wars, and posting your insane rants on JazzFanz than my kids and I spend in front of a tv, combined. But, sure. We're sheep; lost in the dark of modern technology that is shrouded in socialism and inside jobs.
 
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