Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

[sirkickyass]

I will not be covering the state sovereignty issue here.. again, because it's not my main issue with what is going on here.

Also, fwiw, I am a die-hard HATER of conspiracy theories, they piss me off, in fact.

Okay, where do I start... (this is all the research I've done to try to find out why this one rancher in the middle of nowhere became a big deal to the feds.. it smelled fishy to me)

Summary: Harry Reid (and others I will name as their 'moments' pop up in the story) has been utilizing law firms masquerading as environmentalist companies to rid the land of ranchers. The phony environmentalists file law suits (primarily against the BLM) to protect certain endangered species. BLM takes action and forces ranchers to reduce their herds to small remnants, to protect the turtle (as well as 400+ other endangered species).

Why would they do that?

In 1993 Reid gets Patricia Mulroy appointed as General Manager the Southern Utah Water Conservancy. Her job should be fairly obvious.. manage and GET water for Las Vegas and its continued growth. This is the year that things ratchet up BIG time with ranchers of Clark County that have vested water rights. As I'm sure most know.. water rights are a "use it or lose it" right.

Until 1993, Bundy had paid his grazing rights. In 1993 he stopped. Why? The BLM, under pressure from environmentalist groups, informed Bundy that to protect the tortoise he would have to reduce his herd down to 150 from 1000. This would make him lose his livelihood.. and also his water rights. So he refused. He also refused to acknowledge that the feds had the right to do that on what he believes should be state land.. but let's steer clear of there for now. It should be noted, however, that the Bundy family showed up in Bunkerville under the Lincoln introduced Homestead Act of 1862, in 1877. The federal government 'asked' these ranchers and farmers to go west.

This same action was being taken against rancher after rancher in Clark County.

It was a water grab.

Fast forward to 1998. He wants more, now Reid petitions Las Vegas planning committee to expand the size of Las Vegas by tens of thousands of acres. The committee isn't pleased, they know the water isn't available for anything like that. Mulroy states the only way she would back such an expansion is if they can build a pipeline to get water either from the Colorado River or from the great basin. Where would the money come from? Mulroy's plan was to sell off federal land with 10% of the proceeds going to the water conservancy district to build the pipeline.

There was a problem. The restrictions on selling federal land made it a bit cumbersome to do so. So Reid and Senator Ensign co-introduced a bill to remove the restrictions and were successful.

1998. This was the year the Bundy's were ordered off the BLM land they had been grazing for 150 years. By now, almost every rancher had lost their livelihoods (and most every single one were paying their grazing fees) due, in most part, to the forced reduction of their herd size.

This land that was once homesteaded and ranched but was lost due to the protection of the tortoise began being sold off and the coffers of the water conservancy district bolstered. How much? $300,000,000+

Some of this land was acquired by Whittemore to build the Coyote Springs Resort. The resort was fought by the EPA and some environmentalists, but they were now suddenly defeated and the same 'restrictions' that ran off the ranchers had now suddenly vanished. At the time the above mentioned resort was approved, it included 12 golf courses and 160,000 home sites. A far bit more intrusive than the cattle that were ran off the ground, I dare guess.

It was a land grab.


This is why I find the 2013 case overseen by Judge Richard C. Jones as relevant here. Judge Jones strongly proclaimed corruption and conspiracy from the highest offices of the NV government... the same faces involved in the Bundy scheme.

I'll let that simmer and come back with more. More detail, more proof. I only waited to tell this story (semi)publicly here until I was given the go ahead by someone advising me, that I trust.

I'll wait for anything other than naked assertions before I comment.

 

[babe]

I'm sure Kicky can play lawyer all day long, and rhetorically snooze anybody's sense of outrage.

I'm also sure the media will not give a ratsass about any of this, and very few Americans, either.

"conspiracy theories" has gone the way of "communist" in our language, as words with lost meanings.

There are people who consider "government" their personal road in life, to power, wealth, "good" deals right and left. There is no material difference in what you call a government, or in what you recite in the line of propaganda for creating the desired group-think. When government has power, it will attract folks who don't care about anything but power and it's purposes in either controlling resources, enriching a favored few, or handing out "good jobs" to compliant folks necessary for it to continue to exercise and expand its power.

I once had some misgivings while sitting in classes with masses of pre-Med students with dollar signs in their eyes. I also had some days sitting in law libraries doing case research, seeing stuff that made me pretty disappointed in the kinds of people who were in the law school. . . .

SNWA......The Southern Nevada Water Authority. . . . has some honest people, some good people working for it. They have done an amazing job in improving water use efficiencies, and in reclaiming used water and cleaning it up. Give those guys a gallon of water, and they will get 1.7 gallons of water use. Their street cops do remind me of Nazis a bit, but what should we expect. They have enforced policies that go a long long way to eliminating water waste.

However, any discussion of SNWA is incomplete without discussing the Enron fraud of the nineties. Enron management found new homes in SNWA, including Cory Reid, the Clark County Commissioner who is the son of Harry Reid.

SNWA is going forward with the Great Basin water pipeline that will deplete subsurface water all the way to Salt Lake City, sucking salt water away from the Great Salt Lake to replace water being drawn from connected subsurface pools which have historically been dropping in their water levels with just the rancher/farmer water use. Utah ranchers were told there was no way to stop it from going forward because Harry Reid is the 500 pound gorilla nobody can stop.

If people don't decide that government like this can't be tolerated, well. . . . . they will be the big-time losers who just didn't care to, or couldn't, see the handwriting on the wall.

I am afraid Kicky would give not only every other persons rights away, but his own right hand, to have a teat on the Reid pipeline. I hope that is all wrong.

So here's how I suggest we play this game. Kicky, you play Reid advocate, and show us how Reid's lawyers and his political support team will play this. Let the rest of us see what kind of people we're dealing with. But. .. shhhhh. ... . don't anyone ever imply that people who work in the dark under false pretenses, together, to enrich themselves at our expense, are actually doing just that. No no no..... all our public officials, especially our judges have high and noble reasons for the way they manage us.

I consider the corruption I've seen in our government to be a fatal social condition that will make it impossible for anyone to honestly become a success, financially or politically, in our country. I believe the only remedy that can work is to limit government power and government privilege, and government ownership of property, and government revenue streams.

PKM, I suggest that you make no disclosures of information in this forum. Probably we do need to increase public awareness of what has been going on, but if you are going to fight this fight in the courts, you will need a lawyer like the one John Peter Zenger had, and you will need to use the element of surprise to overwhelm the huge staffs of disingenous lawyers who will multiply page by page, out-writing you ten to one, and burying your information in a mass of innuendo, character assassination, and everything thing else lawyers have ever resorted to.

It has been my judgment for many years, that the current generation of vipers will need simply to be endured until enough people are just fed up with it all. I guess it's time to write a book or something. . . .

 

[TroutBum]

That's my fear.. that We the People have become desensitized and simply expect these things to happen and say meh..

Not me. I intend to do what I can to find justice. I mean that.

I also fear that We The People will start buying into crazy conspiracy theories -- Hell, all you have to do is YouTube "Illuminati" to make you ponder the dangers of inbreeding. But that wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm more interested in what Tink has to say about your info. Granted, he's a corn hole of the highest order, but he's our corn hole, and he knows the legal side of things. You've said your side, now let's see the other. (If he even bothers to reply)

I'm so glad almost everything you back is the complete opposite of what I back. It makes me feel better about myself.

I know, petty... but it's the small victories in life that can bring joy.

Do you know how depressing it is to be affiliated with the likes of him and OneBrown? I mean, you guys have BeanDowns and Conan, but at least even they know they're morons.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Whoever mentioned that he/she wished that babe would post something without using "communist" or "socialist" has greatly amused me since I can completely disregard the post when I see it to the point where I'm skimming specifically for the word and then chuckle when I see it.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'll wait for anything other than naked assertions before I comment.

Hopefully you'll be able to read about it in your coveted court documents.

I also fear that We The People will start buying into crazy conspiracy theories -- Hell, all you have to do is YouTube "Illuminati" to make you ponder the dangers of inbreeding. But that wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm more interested in what Tink has to say about your info. Granted, he's a corn hole of the highest order, but he's our corn hole, and he knows the legal side of things. You've said your side, now let's see the other. (If he even bothers to reply)

1) I can't believe you just likened what I wrote to googling 'illuminati.' seriously
2) Problem with kicky and most (not all) lawyers is their over-inflated egos tend to make them only believe something if another attorney or judge hasn't said, it isn't true... and even that is subject to claims of context and conjecture in a convenient twist to put them in agreement even when they're not.

I suspect kicky will simply say, :tinfoil: and "prove it." I hope to oblige.

 

[sirkickyass]

It should be noted, however, that the Bundy family showed up in Bunkerville under the Lincoln introduced Homestead Act of 1862, in 1877. The federal government 'asked' these ranchers and farmers to go west.

I know I said I would hold back until you posted any evidence for any of your claims but I just can't resist this one:

If the Bundy's legal position is that the Federal Government cannot legally own land that is interior of states under the Constitution, how can they simultaneously claim land ownership under any set of Homestead Laws that requires the Federal Government to transfer ownership to the homesteaders that are interior of states?

I'm more interested in what Tink has to say about your info. Granted, he's a corn hole of the highest order, but he's our corn hole, and he knows the legal side of things. You've said your side, now let's see the other. (If he even bothers to reply)

I think I have to wait until he substantiates the claims with anything. As is, it's just a wall of text of assertions with no support.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I know I said I would hold back until you posted any evidence for any of your claims but I just can't resist this one:

If the Bundy's legal position is that the Federal Government cannot legally own land that is interior of states under the Constitution, how can they simultaneously claim land ownership under any set of Homestead Laws that requires the Federal Government to transfer ownership to the homesteaders that are interior of states?



I think I have to wait until he substantiates the claims with anything. As is, it's just a wall of text of assertions with no support.

In your opinion, tink, what do you consider properly substantiating a claim? Would one have to be investigated, prosecuted, and found guilty?
If so, I will not waste anymore time discussing this with you here. Otherwise, tell me what you would deem credible.

I am working on this very hard right now so it's not really a good use of time to debate this here.. especially if you have already made up your mind pending court decision, if there ever is one.

 

[TroutBum]

1) I can't believe you just likened what I wrote to googling 'illuminati.' seriously
2) Problem with kicky and most (not all) lawyers is their over-inflated egos tend to make them only believe something if another attorney or judge hasn't said, it isn't true... and even that is subject to claims of context and conjecture in a convenient twist to put them in agreement even when they're not.

I suspect kicky will simply say, :tinfoil: and "prove it." I hope to oblige.

1) I can't believe that through this entire thread, you've lumped me into the casual "meh" crowd, and given me zero credit for the years that I've put into learning and serving at the local government level. My tongue was firmly planted in cheek in my above post. In hindsight, I should have said "too" instead of "also" to better indicate that I was making a joke about conspiracy theories, and not comparing this issue with the crazies on YouTube (not google).
2) I can't speak for Tink, but the sheer fact that he graduated from a school that 99% of us couldn't get into, and works for a firm that 99% of his fellow graduates will never sniff kind of sets him apart, and gives him instant credibility. The fact that he's done some legal work for me, and obscenely well I might add, doesn't hurt.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I know I said I would hold back until you posted any evidence for any of your claims but I just can't resist this one:

If the Bundy's legal position is that the Federal Government cannot legally own land that is interior of states under the Constitution, how can they simultaneously claim land ownership under any set of Homestead Laws that requires the Federal Government to transfer ownership to the homesteaders that are interior of states?



I think I have to wait until he substantiates the claims with anything. As is, it's just a wall of text of assertions with no support.

That is an excellent question. I don't know. I have taken no interest in the state sovereignty portion because that's the issue everyone else has been focused on... leading to less interest from me.

If I were to attempt an uneducated guess on the matter, I would say that he is homesteaded and deeded about 160 or so acres (he is) and the vested water rights. His lands and water are not federal land as they were homesteaded. Separately, the land on which the cows graze that he claims is/should be state land is land that he paid grazing rights for (until 1993) to Clark County, NV.

Can state owned land (bear with me for a second) grant permits for grazing rights? If they can, that's the answer to your question.. but I'm not overly familiar with their claims on this issue.

 

[babe]

1) I can't believe that through this entire thread, you've lumped me into the casual "meh" crowd, and given me zero credit for the years that I've put into learning and serving at the local government level. My tongue was firmly planted in cheek in my above post. In hindsight, I should have said "too" instead of "also" to better indicate that I was making a joke about conspiracy theories, and not comparing this issue with the crazies on YouTube (not google).
2) I can't speak for Tink, but the sheer fact that he graduated from a school that 99% of us couldn't get into, and works for a firm that 99% of his fellow graduates will never sniff kind of sets him apart, and gives him instant credibility. The fact that he's done some legal work for me, and obscenely well I might add, doesn't hurt.

That's a helluva recommendation coming from you. for real, as in srs.

Might be fun to see if I can swim in the same tank. . . .

OTOH, can I just count on him being inured to gallery jeers?

Truth is, to be a really good lawyer, you have to be like Tink.

 

[Dr. Jones]

1) I can't believe that through this entire thread, you've lumped me into the casual "meh" crowd, and given me zero credit for the years that I've put into learning and serving at the local government level. My tongue was firmly planted in cheek in my above post. In hindsight, I should have said "too" instead of "also" to better indicate that I was making a joke about conspiracy theories, and not comparing this issue with the crazies on YouTube (not google).
2) I can't speak for Tink, but the sheer fact that he graduated from a school that 99% of us couldn't get into, and works for a firm that 99% of his fellow graduates will never sniff kind of sets him apart, and gives him instant credibility. The fact that he's done some legal work for me, and obscenely well I might add, doesn't hurt.

Good post top to bottom.

I can respect tink's understanding of the law and still also find him to be somewhat blinded by an arrogance and an intellectual elitism that rules his opinion of an 'unsubstantiated' claim to be less credible, to me.

 

[sirkickyass]

In your opinion, tink, what do you consider properly substantiating a claim? Would one have to be investigated, prosecuted, and found guilty?
If so, I will not waste anymore time discussing this with you here. Otherwise, tell me what you would deem credible.

Posting any evidence whatsoever would be helpful.

I have no idea where you got anything that you posted above or who told you things or what basis you have for preferring that narrative over any other.

Documents are best, but probably not findable or postable. This has been the primary reason I keep going back to court filings for the historical claims and figuring out what the parties positions are. I can access them, they are extensive and include primary documents as exhibits in many cases, and verified pleadings are under oath so they tend to have fewer embellishments.

I assume that if you're already trying to substantiate this version of events then you're looking for documents, contemporaneous reports, or any other kind of evidence. Obviously it's hard to evaluate just a lengthy theory of what is "actually" happening.

 

[TroutBum]

That's a helluva recommendation coming from you. for real, as in srs.

Might be fun to see if I can swim in the same tank. . . .

OTOH, can I just count on him being inured to gallery jeers?

Truth is, to be a really good lawyer, you have to be like Tink.

You should have seen the people threatening to sue me quickly back peddle once Tink got involved. Mind you, this wasn't some loner dude who works at 7-11 who was coming after me, but a high ranking elected official. I <3 me some Tink, and he's earned his right to be an overbearing know-it-all. Franklin is the only other person that gets this kind of pass with me.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Posting any evidence whatsoever would be helpful.

I have no idea where you got anything that you posted above or who told you things or what basis you have for preferring that narrative over any other.

Documents are best, but probably not findable or postable. This has been the primary reason I keep going back to court filings for the historical claims and figuring out what the parties positions are. I can access them, they are extensive and include primary documents as exhibits in many cases, and verified pleadings are under oath so they tend to have fewer embellishments.

I assume that if you're already trying to substantiate this version of events then you're looking for documents, contemporaneous reports, or any other kind of evidence. Obviously it's hard to evaluate just a lengthy theory of what is "actually" happening.

Good answer. Yes, I am doing just that.. and have done most of it but just looking for even more substance. I have a very prominent attorney helping me in the process. I put out the outline. I'll respect that you can't believe just because I typed it.. and hopefully you can respect why I may not want to post every detail.
I'm sure I've already said too much, rather than too little.

My apologies if I'm come off a dick. I'm really not.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'd be interested, tink, in you doing a quick search of these environmentalist groups (I don't need more substance, btw).

Maybe check out Sierra Club / Center for Biological Diversity.
Check out their M.O.

It sickens me, tbh.

 

[TroutBum]

My dad always said, if it walks like a duck...

 

[VINYLONE]

What kind of Law does Kick Law practice and what firm does he work for?

 

[Stoked]

What kind of Law does Kick Law practice and what firm does he work for?

Why would he disclose that personal info to you?

 

[sirkickyass]

You should have seen the people threatening to sue me quickly back peddle once Tink got involved. Mind you, this wasn't some loner dude who works at 7-11 who was coming after me, but a high ranking elected official.

Well that wasn't even a real job. That was just for funsies so I could tell my mom a funny story.

 

[VINYLONE]

Why would he disclose that personal info to you?

Personal info? I would assume the dude is an officer of the court and would have no issues saying what kind of law he practices. He can PM me if he feels threatened? Are you representing him here on the boards?