Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

[One Brow]

That's exactly what I said.

Crushed it OB, crushed it.

Oh and just to clarify, I'm not the one who brought color into this…that would be you.

Anyways, anytime you want to answer my question, feel free to.

Technically, it was Bundy that brought color into it, and you that supported his position in part.

I haven't spent any time on reservations. How much time do I need to spend there to know people won't live in poverty if they have a choice?

So, what was your point about reservations? That the people in them are not impoverished, or that they are, but don't care?

Any further responses on this topic I'll create a new thread for. This one is busy enough.

 

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The law is crap, as his family should be grandfathered out of grazing fees. Moreover, he has over 1000 head of cattle, BLM told him to reduce it to 150 which essentially killed off all his buddies ranches in the area.

This is an interesting notion. On what grounds do you think that he should get grandfathered out of fees?

 

[Hantlers]

I went to school with quite a few actually. See, Tooele County School District also brings in kids from the Goshute Indian reservation of Skull Valley, Utah. The kids were normal enough... the parents though is another story.

But not once did I see a people unwilling to work hard for themselves and their families. I only saw a defeated people that knew they were defeated. Many of them could have changed, but having seen their predecessors spirits they just don't believe they can do anything.

They choose to be defeated.

They get scholarships to go to college (for free), they get money each month just for being a native american, and before they sold it all, they owned a lot of land. They have had more opportunities that most people.

Oh, and if you believe that you're defeated and choose to do nothing about it, then that being unwilling to work hard to change it.

 

[Harambe]

I don't see us conquering lands and taking them over too much anymore.

Very good. Now is it because we can't, or we've learned better over time?

Should we just give the land back (that people have paid for), because we feel bad about it? That doesn't solve anything.

I don't think I ever said that at all.

His family never paid for the land, you can't just give it to them.

Funny. The homesteading act of 1862 said go out and use it, improve it, and it's yours. Paperwork be damned, his family's probably done more for that land than the BLM has since it "took over"

Also, they didn't tell him to reduce his herd size, they told him the maximum amount of cattle he could graze on that section was 150. Believe it or not, that's pretty common. It's done to protect the ground so that it doesn't get overgrazed.

And who said that? The BLM? Imagine that!

 

[Hantlers]

Technically, it was Bundy that brought color into it, and you that supported his position in part.

I haven't spent any time on reservations. How much time do I need to spend there to know people won't live in poverty if they have a choice?

So, what was your point about reservations? That the people in them are not impoverished, or that they are, but don't care?

Any further responses on this topic I'll create a new thread for. This one is busy enough.

I said that Bundy was wrong…but that there was some truth in his statements, which if you read further, explicitly indicated what I thought of what happens when you just give people things. Color had nothing to do with it.

And please, make a new thread.

Also, if you've never spent any time in a certain place, then you are going to have a difficult time understanding why things are the way they are.

 

[Hantlers]

Funny. The homesteading act of 1862 said go out and use it, improve it, and it's yours. Paperwork be damned, his family's probably done more for that land than the BLM has since it "took over"


And who said that? The BLM? Imagine that!

The homesteading act issue has been gone over several times, I'm not going to go over it again. Look at the old posts.

In regards to overgrazing, it's actually a science issue. I'm sure that NAOS could actually explain it fairly well. Land can only handle so many cattle without wrecking itself, in a desert area like Nevada, 1000 head most certainly has the capability to wreck land.

 

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Funny. The homesteading act of 1862 said go out and use it, improve it, and it's yours. Paperwork be damned, his family's probably done more for that land than the BLM has since it "took over"

What constitutes "improvement"?
By the way, we've learned a lot about land since 1862.

Srs, I'm very interested in these two bits of your posts I've quoted. I'd really like to hear your founding principles for these arguments.

 

[Harambe]

They choose to be defeated.

They get scholarships to go to college (for free), they get money each month just for being a native american, and before they sold it all, they owned a lot of land. They have had more opportunities that most people.

Oh, and if you believe that you're defeated and choose to do nothing about it, then that being unwilling to work hard to change it.

And you're under the impression that all you have to do is work hard and you'll get everything you've ever wanted?

How white are you exactly?

 

[Stoked]

And you're under the impression that all you have to do is work hard and you'll get everything you've ever wanted?

How white are you exactly?

I'm not. But there is no substitute for hard work either

 

[Harambe]

What constitutes "improvement"?
By the way, we've learned a lot about land since 1862.

Srs, I'm very interested in these two bits of your posts I've quoted. I'd really like to hear your founding principles for these arguments.

Well sure! Here's the wikipedia on Land Improvement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_improvement

I'm absolutely sure that the definition now, and the definition then are vastly different.

 

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Well sure! Here's the wikipedia on Land Improvement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_improvement

I'm absolutely sure that the definition now, and the definition then are vastly different.

This thread is so out of hand... so let me get this straight...
You think Bundy is improving the land? What's your evidence?

 

[Harambe]

I'm not. But there is no substitute for hard work either

And I get that.

Here's a link: https://www.themarysue.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-race-gender-science/

Basically, Tyson(a "hero" of mine), was asked what genetic differences make men more likely to be in science. He has no idea about being a woman, but "feels ya" with Race. There's really no way to tell genetic differences holding some back or propping others up until we have a social system that promotes everyone getting a fair chance.

Long story short; if you or your sex, race, sexuality are socially ignored, neglected, or outright abused, there's a bigger hole you gotta dig yourself out of. Therefore, the hard work of someone with out a hole(middle to upper class white male) gets you a lot further than the hardwork of, for continuities sake, a dirt poor Native American.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbnRnhrNFEY

 

[VINYLONE]

**** you, Cliven Bundy. He's just another good ol' boy with generational ignorance rooted in the belief of white superiority. He's a simple **** of a dinosaur.

 

[Harambe]

This thread is so out of hand... so let me get this straight...
You think Bundy is improving the land? What's your evidence?

This is actually a fair question. Thank you for that.

The only thing I've got to go off of is his word, what he's said in an interview earlier in the month, but I'm having trouble sifting through all the BS right now.

One moment

edit: Found something

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-ancestral-rights

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements,"

"My rights are before the BLM even existed, but my rights are created by beneficial use. Beneficial use means we created the forage and the water from the time the very first pioneers come here," Bundy said.

I can't see exactly what he's done, I can't find anything that he, or his family has detailed, only that he's done it by creating undisclosed "range improvements"

Now, the side of the half truth. His family has not been in the area since 1877... his maternal grandmothers family had begun grazing there since 1877. Now that pisses me off, but is just politics... as usual.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I can say common sense dictates that it's hard to improve a specific plot of undeveloped desert/steppe land when it's being grazed by 1000 cattle...

 

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I can say common sense dictates that it's hard to improve a specific plot of undeveloped desert/steppe land when it's being grazed by 1000 cattle...

this is my loud and prevailing sense of things, too.

And, if this is, in fact, true... then it really hurts any argument against "grandfathering" out of fees. IMO.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

If his family does get ownership of the land due to the homestead act. Don't you think it should have happened by now. And then this would be a whole different topic if they were kicking him out of his own land. To me squatting doesn't make you an owner and if you are using the land that is great as long as you pay your dues if not then you are breaking the law.

 

[Stoked]

I can say common sense dictates that it's hard to improve a specific plot of undeveloped desert/steppe land when it's being grazed by 1000 cattle...

Not really, this is a very large area. The cows will also drift away from loud noises and construction. Such as building water tanks and dirt roads.

 

[Harambe]

If his family does get ownership of the land due to the homestead act. Don't you think it should have happened by now. And then this would be a whole different topic if they were kicking him out of his own land. To me squatting doesn't make you an owner and if you are using the land that is great as long as you pay your dues if not then you are breaking the law.

If they are going to proceed with this, then that's what they should have done in the first place, imo. You owe back taxes, they take your house. Why does he still have his ranch?