What's new
By:

You DONT build around PG

Without the Jordan outlier, the SG position would look pretty poor vis a vis championship result, as well.

Further, the parallel point is that the 90s would have been dominated by bigs -- were, actually, dominated by bigs, anyway -- on every level including championship result; without Jordan, Malone likely wins multiple titles, Barkley probably has one and even Ewing may have had a decent shot.

Further, looking at the top teams from that period, it's likely that the decade would have been seen as dominated by 1-4 combinations at the championship-level: Stockton/Malone with a couple, Barkley/KJ with one, even Payton/Kemp in 96 were likely winners without the MJ factor.

And that's, also, why Jordan is considered so great, or a huge part of it: he was a wing that dominated a league typically owned by bigs, and during a decade that may have been the best on talent at 4/5 all-time.

Today, all the rules push for advantages at the wings, and for backcourt offensive stars. Yet the last decade has been dominated, as usual, by big men. That is, without Jordan.

Kobe? Hasn't been able to get out of the first round or even make the playoffs without either the best C in the league or one of the very best PFs and overall frontcourts today, if not the best overall talent upfront.

You can make the argument that he is the best player, but the point is myopic; the team is a loser, no matter Kobe's individual greatness, without superior frontcourt talent.

To criticize the PG position as being a losing proposition is not the brightest point in and of itself, especially when looking at history and context across the positions and the amount of contention that has resulted.

The real point, relative to whatever moment, is that real game-changing, championship result stems foremost in the frontcourt, and this a criticism that remains today of BOTH PGs/SGs even with the new rules favoring these positions.
 
And as for Magic? Name me the championship this guy won without absolutely loaded teams or Kareem present throughout.

Laker guards have been overrated as far as contending results for a long time.
 
Perhaps, but Magic was one hell of a player, possibly the most well-rounded and versatile player of all time (even rivaling Oscar Robertson). His performance at C in a finals game in his rookie year is still one of the most unique and incredible feats ever accomplished, IMO.
 
The OP insinuates that Devon Harris isn't considered a decent PG. I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think Devin Harris has been a top 10 PG in the NBA since he started to come of age in Dallas. While I would certainly rank him below D-Will, I think he ranks better than "decent". The fact of the matter is, if being in Utah around better players elevates his current numbers, we're not losing much in terms of production. And what if his numbers stay the same? Well then, you're getting 15ppg and 7apg from a guy who is quicker and a better defender than D-Will IMO. That should all be more than enough from the PG spot.

The rest of the post IMO is dead on correct. You don't build around a PG and I think New Jersey is about to find that out (if they can even resign D-Will long term). I like where the Jazz are heading. I think Jefferson playing the 4 is a much better fit and Favors eventually mans the 5 spot. Get some more scoring from the SF and SG positions and add a little depth and I don't see why Utah can't be a very good team.
 
With D Will Jersey has a shot to put together a solid team. D Will is obviously top 3 PG, while Lopez is a top 10 center now and will likely get better. Folllowing the pattern, 2 stars on your team bodes well. If they can get a decent supporting cast they can make some noise.
 
JAZZFAN_2814 said:
Without the Jordan outlier, the SG position would look pretty poor vis a vis championship result, as well.

Further, the parallel point is that the 90s would have been dominated by bigs -- were, actually, dominated by bigs, anyway -- on every level including championship result; without Jordan, Malone likely wins multiple titles, Barkley probably has one and even Ewing may have had a decent shot.

Further, looking at the top teams from that period, it's likely that the decade would have been seen as dominated by 1-4 combinations at the championship-level: Stockton/Malone with a couple, Barkley/KJ with one, even Payton/Kemp in 96 were likely winners without the MJ factor.

And that's, also, why Jordan is considered so great, or a huge part of it: he was a wing that dominated a league typically owned by bigs, and during a decade that may have been the best on talent at 4/5 all-time.

Today, all the rules push for advantages at the wings, and for backcourt offensive stars. Yet the last decade has been dominated, as usual, by big men. That is, without Jordan.

Kobe? Hasn't been able to get out of the first round or even make the playoffs without either the best C in the league or one of the very best PFs and overall frontcourts today, if not the best overall talent upfront.

You can make the argument that he is the best player, but the point is myopic; the team is a loser, no matter Kobe's individual greatness, without superior frontcourt talent.

To criticize the PG position as being a losing proposition is not the brightest point in and of itself, especially when looking at history and context across the positions and the amount of contention that has resulted.

The real point, relative to whatever moment, is that real game-changing, championship result stems foremost in the frontcourt, and this a criticism that remains today of BOTH PGs/SGs even with the new rules favoring these positions.
Click to expand...

I often disagree with your posts, but this one is spot on. I think what it all means is that you MUST have an inside-out game. We all saw how the Lakers and SA stopped the Jazz the past several years; they just left our weakest shooters open and shut down the inside game. Shut down (or at least contain) Kobe and the Lakers go to Gasol or Odom (and Shaq in past seasons). Boston had their Big Three, with Pierce and Allen firing away outside and Garnett with his super mid-range game. SA has Duncan inside and Parker and Ginobli outside.

Utah was close, but Boozer could be bothered by bigger post players and you could double Deron and force Utah to rely on outside shooting, which the Jazz just didn't have.

That's why I'm excited by this trade. There were two "studs" in the draft in terms of big men: Favors and Cousins. Favors is young; he's a project. But one look at the guy and you can see why he's often compared to Amare in terms of his potential. Will he pan out? I don't know. There's certainly that risk. But when I think of teaming Favors with Jefferson, bringing in a goods young SF withNj's pick, using our pick or GS's to draft or in a trade for a SG, I can see some real potential. Millsap, CJ, Hayward and Watson are a pretty good bench. I don;t care what Simmons said about Devin Harris: yes, he peaked two years ago when NJ still had decent players. Just look at their roster the past two seasons; pretty hard to have good assist numbers when you only have a couple of others who are legit NBA players.
 
LogGrad98 said:
You know you could also argue that the Pistons of the 2000's best player was also a PG. It is hard to argue against Billups as one of if not the top PG in the league when they won it all. Their team didn't really have a superstar, and Billups filled that role more than the other players really. Again a backcourt with top 5 SG (Rip) and top 3 PG (Billups).

I guess maybe you can build a championship team around a solid PG. It sure doesn't appear to be easy.
Click to expand...


I don't think you can build a championship team around a PG who doesn't also have a very strong front court.

Billups had the double Wallace, which had both O and D. Plus, I'm not sure they win that series if Malone is healthy.

Isiah Thomas had Sally, Rodman, Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn.
 
Depends on the PG.

if he can dominate scoring wise like a SG, then maybe. Rose and Magic are similar in the respect that many times they're completely unguardable out there.
 
As long as the PG is a 'super star'-level athlete. Isiah was, as was Magic Johnson. Williams is very good, but not yet really a super-star, IMO. Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook could become 'super-stars' before Williams.
Okur actually can defend well against bigger Centers (ask Yao); it's these smaller, quicker PF-types who just fly around him that make Okur look like he's standind in cement by comarison.
Hopefully Okur will be back with the Jazz; even in a backup role playing fewer minutes he'd add value to the lineup:
PG Harris, Watson
SG Bell, Hayward
SF Kirilenko, Miles
PF Favors, Millsap
C Jefferson, Okur

Price, Elson, Evans, Fesenko would get situational PT. Unless the Jazz have already given up on Fes the Flake, I'd give him a shot at more PT the rest of this season before considering re-signing him next year. Kirilenko is more likely to be back with Williams gone.
 
Sooo, the Jazz should've traded Stockton when they had the chance, eh?

If the Jazz didn't draft Deron in 2005, who should they have taken at #3? The only other choice was CP3 -- what position does that guy play again?

Well, we'll all just have to see how many rings Utah wins by building around Favors, Hayward and Fredette.
 
The Thriller said:
Depends on the PG.

if he can dominate scoring wise like a SG, then maybe. Rose and Magic are similar in the respect that many times they're completely unguardable out there.
Click to expand...

You mean, like Allen Iverson was when he was the MVP of the league? There are nights when Monta Ellis is unguardable too, but if I had to choose what type of star player I wanted to build around, I would take someone in the Amare, Tim Duncan, KG-talent mode. I think the Jazz see some of that potential in Favors and made this trade opportunistically.

Ideally, your team has a dominant big and an unstoppable guard or wing--like the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, or the Spurs with Duncan and Parker/Ginobli. Then you can add shooters, defenders, and rebounders.
 
Catchall said:
You mean, like Allen Iverson was when he was the MVP of the league? There are nights when Monta Ellis is unguardable too, but if I had to choose what type of star player I wanted to build around, I would take someone in the Amare, Tim Duncan, KG-talent mode. I think the Jazz see some of that potential in Favors and made this trade opportunistically.

Ideally, your team has a dominant big and an unstoppable guard or wing--like the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, or the Spurs with Duncan and Parker/Ginobli. Then you can add shooters, defenders, and rebounders.
Click to expand...

agreed.

Build around a dominate bigman. Then SG. Look at the Lakers. They've won several titles with Fisher as their PG.... fisher guys, Fisher.
 
jazzman12 said:
The OP insinuates that Devon Harris isn't considered a decent PG. I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think Devin Harris has been a top 10 PG in the NBA since he started to come of age in Dallas. While I would certainly rank him below D-Will, I think he ranks better than "decent". The fact of the matter is, if being in Utah around better players elevates his current numbers, we're not losing much in terms of production. And what if his numbers stay the same? Well then, you're getting 15ppg and 7apg from a guy who is quicker and a better defender than D-Will IMO. That should all be more than enough from the PG spot.

The rest of the post IMO is dead on correct. You don't build around a PG and I think New Jersey is about to find that out (if they can even resign D-Will long term). I like where the Jazz are heading. I think Jefferson playing the 4 is a much better fit and Favors eventually mans the 5 spot. Get some more scoring from the SF and SG positions and add a little depth and I don't see why Utah can't be a very good team.
Click to expand...

I absolutely did not mean to insinuate Harris wasnt decent. That actually was the point I meant to make. He IS better than decent and the other 4 spots are more important to have stars in.
Yes, maybe I shouldnt have used the words DONT and CANT, but it was for effect, and it worked.
I stated that Rose could well buck this trend. Unreal talent.
Also, I DID forget about Zeke. he was in top tier for sure at the time of PG. But still, that was a while ago, in the same era as Magic, so point holds.
I do NOT consider Billups in that tier when they won. It was a great team, with perfect mix. Top 10 at the time, but not top 5 PG, IMO.
 
I think the answer to this sort of question is: who is most likely to score at the end of playoff game seven? As JazzFan 2814 pointed out there have been a lot of combos of 1 & 4 which were the very best at this in the league (but they went against the exception: Jordan)

I'm not quite sure that any team has ever 'built around' a point guard. The Jazz built around Malone and Stockton was an asset to improve Malone's chances of scoring.

But to ship DWill off in a trade is not an admission of "we tried to build around a point guard and it didn't work." If D Rose is good enough to take your chances on him just going one-on-one at the end of game7 then he's an ultra-valuable player whether hes 6'1 or 7'1.
 
jimmyjazz said:
Sooo, the Jazz should've traded Stockton when they had the chance, eh?

If the Jazz didn't draft Deron in 2005, who should they have taken at #3? The only other choice was CP3 -- what position does that guy play again?

Well, we'll all just have to see how many rings Utah wins by building around Favors, Hayward and Fredette.
Click to expand...


You take BPA, unless you're set at that position. Then maybe you trade up or back or take the next best BPA at your real position of need. But there is always a premium on bigs. That's why Bowie was drafted over Jordan, Oden over Durant and Bogut over CP3 and Deron. The Jazz would NEVER have won a ring with the bigs they had: Okur, Jefferson, Fesenko and Elson...with an undersized Millsap at PF? Not gonna happen. You either need to get extremely lucky in the draft or make a big trade. Or gut your team and hope you can attract a couple of big name FA's (like NY did with Amare and then getting 'Melo). Yes, Favors is a huge risk. As big a risk as Orlando took with Howard or Phoenix took by drafting Amare. Favors is raw. He might be the next Stoudemire, or he could be the next Darko Milicic. Or he could fall somewhere in between. We won't know that until 2-3 years from now. But his attitude is very encouraging. There were no red flags like there were with Cousins.

Put the proper bigs in place and a PG like Harris is more than adequate.
 
Championship teams have really strong interior defense and rebounding. By getting a superstar big man, you not only have a go-to player on the offensive end, but a guy who can help anchor the defense as well...assuming the guy is willing to play defense.

This is probably one reason why the big men make the Finals and win the rings.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top