Young American Men and Eastern Orthodoxy

[Red]

I’m posting this for @AI-O-Meter, since I know he has an interest in issues involving men and masculinity in America. This is something I would not have guessed was happening. Very interesting….

Young, single men are leaving traditional churches. They found a more ‘masculine’ alternative

New parishes are planned across US to accommodate ‘tsunami’ of male worshippers who have converted since pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

Edit: did not know it had a paywall: https://archive.ph/2025.01.06-23004...en-leaving-traditional-churches-for-orthodox/

 

[Rubashov]

I’m posting this for @AI-O-Meter, since I know he has an interest in issues involving men and masculinity in America. This is something I would not have guessed was happening. Very interesting….

Young, single men are leaving traditional churches. They found a more ‘masculine’ alternative

New parishes are planned across US to accommodate ‘tsunami’ of male worshippers who have converted since pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

Eastern Europeans love themselves some domestic violence, grew up with heaps of them in Melbourne's western suburbs, its basically a cultural expectation. I think the draw for right wing nationalists is that the orthodox church throughout the Balkans and Greece has been a bastion of nationalist ambitions and hatreds. At the heart of any great monotheistic belief is a great hatred of everything else that is other.

 

[MVP]

I’m posting this for @AI-O-Meter, since I know he has an interest in issues involving men and masculinity in America. This is something I would not have guessed was happening. Very interesting….

Young, single men are leaving traditional churches. They found a more ‘masculine’ alternative

New parishes are planned across US to accommodate ‘tsunami’ of male worshippers who have converted since pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

I find it disturbing that in 21stcentury young men are flocking to any kind of churches instead of embracing education and freedom of thinking. Lets be honest, all churches are just a tool of mass control and scam benefiting few "chosen " ones. and should be left in history books. The fact that USA has huge number of filthy rich pastors, priests, preachers and other crooks using religion to become multi millionaires and fly in private jets is mindboggling. You guys are truly a unique nation.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I find it disturbing that in 21stcentury young men are flocking to any kind of churches

They aren't. Red is posting propaganda he wants to be true. Every study and poll on the topic all shows a decline of religion in the United States. Young men are leading the decline. Young men are flocking away from religion, all religion, including Eastern European "Masculine" religion.

Church Attendance Has Declined in Most U.S. Religious Groups

Three in 10 Americans, but 67% of Mormons, attend church regularly. Most religious groups show declines in attendance over the past two decades.

news.gallup.com

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I’m posting this for @AI-O-Meter, since I know he has an interest in issues involving men and masculinity in America. This is something I would not have guessed was happening. Very interesting….

Young, single men are leaving traditional churches. They found a more ‘masculine’ alternative

New parishes are planned across US to accommodate ‘tsunami’ of male worshippers who have converted since pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

It isn't happening. Oh, there may be the odd anecdotal example here or there that propagandists can use to gin up an article, but the data paints a clear picture falsifying the narrative if only you choose to look.

 

[gandalfe]

I find it disturbing that in 21stcentury young men are flocking to any kind of churches instead of embracing education and freedom of thinking. Lets be honest, all churches are just a tool of mass control and scam benefiting few "chosen " ones. and should be left in history books. The fact that USA has huge number of filthy rich pastors, priests, preachers and other crooks using religion to become multi millionaires and fly in private jets is mindboggling. You guys are truly a unique nation.

When my father was in seminary (not the same as LDS seminary, it was basically his master's degree program) one of the professors said, "Gentlemen, in order to be an Episcopal priest, you must have money. You can either inherit it or marry it. I married mine."

 

[LogGrad98]

When my father was in seminary (not the same as LDS seminary, it was basically his master's degree program) one of the professors said, "Gentlemen, in order to be an Episcopal priest, you must have money. You can either inherit it or marry it. I married mine."

So which did your dad do?

 

[gandalfe]

So which did your dad do?

Neither, actually. But he made some good investments. He was actually really embarrassed after he retired to buy a house worth $250,000 - he'd always fought for the little guys, the poor, and civil rights, so why was he now living in a rich man's house? (This was about 25 years ago, so that actually was a fairly expensive house then.) But he and my step-mother both ended up retiring on disability, so they didn't have to touch their savings for a decade or so. Plus he had a pension.

**EDIT** I correct myself, my mother's family did have money, but he never saw any of it, as far as I know.

 

[gandalfe]

Also, btw, since we're talking about the problems with American young men...

Why aren't we talking about the real reason male college enrollment is dropping?

We would rather talk about literally everything else.

celestemdavis.substack.com

White flight is a term that describes how white people move out of neighborhoods when more people of color move in. White flight is especially common when minority populations become the majority. That neighborhood then declines in value.

Male flight describes a similar phenomenon when large numbers of females enter a profession, group, hobby or industry—the men leave. That industry is then devalued.

Take veterinary school for example:

In 1969 almost all veterinary students were male at 89%.

By 1987, male enrollment was equal to female at 50%.1

By 2009, male enrollment in veterinary schools had plummeted to 22.4%

A sociologist studying gender in veterinary schools, Dr. Anne Lincoln says that in an attempt to describe this drastic drop in male enrollment, many keep pointing to financial reasons like the debt-to-income ratio or the high cost of schooling.

But Lincoln’s research found that “men and women are equally affected by tuition and salaries.”

Her research shows that the reason fewer men are enrolling in veterinary school boils down to one factor: the number of women in the classroom.

 

[Red]

They aren't. Red is posting propaganda he wants to be true

Well, this isn’t true. I honestly thought of you. I don’t really have any skin in this. But it did attract my attention, because when I was a young man, I spent a few years studying Gnostic Christianity, was very interested in the first century or two of the new faith. The Gnostic sects were sort of a reflection of the faith through the familiar venue of the time of “the mysteries”, mystery cults, etc., but it’s a long story. Bottom line I always saw the Eastern sects as retaining more Gnostic elements than the Roman branch of my upbringing, and saw it as “closer to the original” than the Roman Catholic Church. Long time interest in those early roots of the Christian faith, and I think the Eastern churches are somewhat closer.

But that’s why I was drawn at first to read the article. I thought of you, on the other hand, as I read, because it seemed to reflect the “crisis in masculinity”(strictly a turn of phrase on my part, I am not yet well read on this) that I have not put a great deal of thought into, and in reading this, it reminded me that yes, distress on the part of men over male identity, and the traditional image and role of men seemingly under threat, is part of my society at the moment. And, from your writings here, I thought you would commiserate with how the guys described here felt. As said, I would not have guessed this trend, toward Eastern Christianity, but assumed it was another reflection of feelings some men in America feel regarding feminization in American culture. And male identity. Just as a student of our culture, seeing guys reflecting these feelings just made me realize it’s a broader based issue than I realized if it has results like this, and things like that will draw my interest.

It honestly did not occur to me that it was all bs in its contentions, and it has nothing to do with your conclusion here. I thought it was something that you would appreciate, again, I thought it safe to assume you were interested in male identity issues in America, and would find this interesting, as I did. There was nothing ulterior in this thread, but can understand your reaction, given our history.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I thought it safe to assume you were interested in male identity issues in America

Male identity issues in American are of interest, and there does seem to be a crisis there, but religiosity in American is in freefall.

As for the crisis, it is entirely of society's making. Men are not more wanting of masculinity now than in the past. Kids of old idolized cowboys who saved and protected. Then there were army men. In the 80's there was He-Man. Don't even get me started on the 70's.



Somewhere along the line, being masculine became bad, toxic, undesirable. That drive for masculinity is hardwired. It is normal. I remember moving some hideously heavy piece of furniture with my brother-in-law and a friend. My 3 year old son rushed in to help us because in his mind that is what the men did. No one told him to do that, and I was afraid he'd get crushed if one of us lost our grip but after we moved it I high-fived him anyway. Unlike far too much of society, I am not going to discourage the behavior in my own kid. I do not think masculinity is toxic.

 

[Red]

It isn't happening. Oh, there may be the odd anecdotal example here or there that propagandists can use to gin up an article, but the data paints a clear picture falsifying the narrative if only you choose to look.

You do realize the article was not about claims religious affiliation, overall, was growing in the United States. The article was about the growth in membership in American based Eastern Orthodox churches. Those are two entirely different things, which I’m sure you understand. Given that fact, I don’t know why you change the focus, from what it was, the growth in Eastern Orthodox affiliation, to something it is not: claiming that affiliation with oraganized religion, overall, is growing in the United States.

You are changing the subject, and the focus of the article, to a broader issue, growth in religious affiliation in general, or the decline in such growth. But the article is about specific growth in one branch of Christianity, Eastern Orthodox denominations. I did not post the thread to talk about issues that the thread is not focused on at all. The guys in the article spoke in their own words, and offered reasons that seemed to be associated with issues of masculinity identity in American society. I assumed they were not the only young men so inclined, and I found their reasoning very interesting.

You did not address the specific info by bringing up a more generalized observation that is not necesserily specific to Eastern Orthodox churches. In other words, your observations are a different subject altogether.

Since you seemed, to me mind you, to have an interest in issues involving masculinity and male identity issues in the United States, I did think of you. I also thought it must surely be an element in our culture wars, and as a student of American cultural history, it also very much is of interest to me.

You don’t have to agree with the claims, or the words of the actual converts. You can think it’s me busting your agates, when it is not. You may claim I am saying young men are joining religious denominations by the millions, when I, and the article, are clearly not saying that at all.

Now, I gave you honest reasons why I read the article, and honest reasons why I thought it would dovetail with certain of your own interests.
You broadened the focus, from Eastern churches to organized religion in general, simply to say my posting this article was propoganda, because I want it to be true. But, that is ridiculous! Don’t respond via your imagination.

Feel free to reject the claims, but at least respond to me in an honest manner.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You are changing the subject, and the focus of the article, to a broader issue

Yes. You can find anecdotal examples of almost anything which is why such examples are of such little worth. The article you posted has no data at all to back any claims, and in fact seems centered on statistics from the COVID pandemic. People were converting to Eastern Orthodox religions at 'X' rate prior to the pandemic, but over the course of the pandemic it was 'Y' rate. How much is 'X'? They don't say. How much is 'Y'? They don't say. Is the rate now in 2025 higher or lower than during the pandemic? They don't say.

What I did was address the direction you seemed to want to go by bringing in some societal data, some actual substance instead of an anecdotal example with the opinion of some random guy.

 

[olden_undercover]

Male identity issues in American are of interest, and there does seem to be a crisis there, but religiosity in American is in freefall.

As for the crisis, it is entirely of society's making. Men are not more wanting of masculinity now than in the past. Kids of old idolized cowboys who saved and protected. Then there were army men. In the 80's there was He-Man. Don't even get me started on the 70's.



Somewhere along the line, being masculine became bad, toxic, undesirable. That drive for masculinity is hardwired. It is normal. I remember moving some hideously heavy piece of furniture with my brother-in-law and a friend. My 3 year old son rushed in to help us because in his mind that is what the men did. No one told him to do that, and I was afraid he'd get crushed if one of us lost our grip but after we moved it I high-fived him anyway. Unlike far too much of society, I am not going to discourage the behavior in my own kid. I do not think masculinity is toxic.

With no claims of being any kind of expert, I've never read the term "toxic masculinity" as a blanket criticism of masculinity-- i.e. that all masculinity is toxic, as you've implied. It's always seemed to me more of a distinction between expressions of masculinity: healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity. I'm sure you can agree there are good examples of both in our current culture.

 

[Red]

Red is posting propaganda he wants to be true

I am curious why you think I WANT it to be true? I’m not troubled at all by a person’s choice of faith, or no faith. Is it a “bad” trend for some young American men to be attracted to Eastern Orthodox? I can’t think of any reason. I left organized religion altogether at age 16, but I do understand the need many have for meaning in life, and the appeal faith has in providing that. Be it real or not, not really for me to decide, man is always going to seek meaning and solace. At least many will. I see no conflict between science and spirituality, but that’s a personal perspective. Bottom line, I could never fault anyone engaged in a search for meaning in life.

So, I’m assuming you think I want this to be true because it somehow says something “bad” about such young American men, or that such a suggested trend is somehow “bad”? Just guessing. It would not be my choice, but I went through that search for meaning already, still am walking that path, and we’re all different, and should try to be true to ourselves. No, it’s those young men’s journey, not my place to judge them. Again, I saw it as an interesting trend.

To me, one bottom line is most of us don’t realize what a human being really is. That can sound cryptic, and I won’t elaborate, it’s part of the answer I found searching for meaning. And I see a lot of my fellow humans searching for meaning these days, and overall, that search for meaning does not surprise me. Again, wants it to be true?? Well, if it helps them, sure….if it’s a mistake, I hope the blinders fall.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

With no claims of being any kind of expert, I've never read the term "toxic masculinity" as a blanket criticism of masculinity-- i.e. that all masculinity is toxic, as you've implied. It's always seemed to me more of a distinction between expressions of masculinity: healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity. I'm sure you can agree there are good examples of both in our current culture.

I don't agree at all. I think what is considered "toxic masculinity" is entirely subjective. Your line of distinction is not everyone's line of distinction, and vague lines means there is no way to defend any masculine trait against a charge of being toxic masculinity. The entire concept is to create a hostile environment. The college enrollment statistics demonstrate how effective the tactic is.

 

[LogGrad98]

I am curious why you think I WANT it to be true? I’m not troubled at all by a person’s choice of faith, or no faith. Is it a “bad” trend for some young American men to be attracted to Eastern Orthodox? I can’t think of any reason. I left organized religion altogether at age 16, but I do understand the need many have for meaning in life, and the appeal faith has in providing that. Be it real or not, not really for me to decide, man is always going to seek meaning and solace. At least many will. I see no conflict between science and spirituality, but that’s a personal perspective. Bottom line, I could never fault anyone engaged in a search for meaning in life.

So, I’m assuming you think I want this to be true because it somehow says something “bad” about such young American men, or that such a suggested trend is somehow “bad”? Just guessing. It would not be my choice, but I went through that search for meaning already, still am walking that path, and we’re all different, and should try to be true to ourselves. No, it’s those young men’s journey, not my place to judge them. Again, I saw it as an interesting trend.

To me, one bottom line is most of us don’t realize what a human being really is. That can sound cryptic, and I won’t elaborate, it’s part of the answer I found searching for meaning. And I see a lot of my fellow humans searching for meaning these days, and overall, that search for meaning does not surprise me. Again, wants it to be true?? Well, if it helps them, sure….if it’s a mistake, I hope the blinders fall.

Did he words it that way because he's a troll. He knows exactly what he said and why. To get a rise out of you so he can chuckle from pwning you. That's it.

 

[infection]

The fact that USA has huge number of filthy rich pastors, priests, preachers and other crooks using religion to become multi millionaires and fly in private jets is mindboggling. You guys are truly a unique nation.

In a country of over 330 million, how many of these people do you think there are? How many people would you estimate have been able to use religion to become a multimillionaire and fly on private jets? A significant percentage?

 

[MVP]

In a country of over 330 million, how many of these people do you think there are? How many people would you estimate have been able to use religion to become a multimillionaire and fly on private jets? A significant percentage?

There is significant percentage of really clueless people who made it happen for a few self proclaimed "chosen" ones though. I would estimate about 40% - those who think Earth is about 6000 years old for example.

 

[MVP]

Also, btw, since we're talking about the problems with American young men...

Why aren't we talking about the real reason male college enrollment is dropping?

We would rather talk about literally everything else.

celestemdavis.substack.com

"Her research shows that the reason fewer men are enrolling in veterinary school boils down to one factor: the number of women in the classroom."

I would think there are other reasons too. The shift towards more females in Veterinary industry is due to huge discrepancies in pay and difference in work load when working in small and large animal fields. 50-60 years ago, most vets were ending in large animal field - working with cows, horses, pigs etc - it was mostly manly profession, not too many females wanted to deal with large animals. Pet industry boom resulted in much bigger demand of small animal clinics and suddenly working with dogs, cats or rabbits in a nicely set up indoor clinic became much more attractive option then doing rectal exams or C sections on cows in -20C weather. Plus pay is much better.
In 1970 only 35% of vet graduates work in small animal clinics. 1990 already 63%, 2000 - 75%. Can't find data for 2020 for example but the trend almost matching male to female ratio.