You've seen enough - Burks to start or off the bench?

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Honestly the only reason this is even a discussion is Tyrone Corbin. IOW, Corbin brought Burks off the bench so we're talking about it. If the Jazz need scoring/playmaking off the bench, Hayward is the guy best suited for it and I'm not sure it's close. He provides shooting where the Jazz don't have it with Exum, he's a better guy in terms of making teammates better (again something the 2nd unit needs) and he can still put the ball in the basket in terms of being a scorer.

Can we really bench our franchise player, and highest paid player. That might ruin him. And before I start another discussion he's been dubbed our franchise player by the entire league, and he has shown this so far in preseason. I'm sorry, but suggesting we put Hayward on the bench is beyond stupid


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[seattlejazzfan]

Can we really bench our franchise player, and highest paid player. That might ruin him. And before I start another discussion he's been dubbed our franchise player by the entire league, and he has shown this so far in preseason. I'm sorry, but suggesting we put Hayward on the bench is beyond stupid

lol

I've heard throughout this discussion over the years with Burks, that it doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes and how many minutes a guy gets. It might ruin him? If he doesn't have the mental capacity to come of the bench for the good of the team, he isn't a franchise player and they should trade him now. Also, if it helps the team win basketball games - and I've listed a couple reason why it might - who gives a rat's *** if the so-called franchise player comes off the bench. Isn't the point to win basketball games?

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[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

You underestimate a basketball players ego, especially one who is being paid a max contract. Hayward is too good to risk putting on the bench. You have to consider what that would do to his future here long term and what that would mean for the locker room


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[seattlejazzfan]

You underestimate a basketball players ego, especially one who is being paid a max contract. Hayward is too good to risk putting on the bench. You have to consider what that would do to his future here long term and what that would mean for the locker room


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Once again, if it's best for the team in terms of wins and losses, he would have to deal with it - and if he's unable to do that, trade his ***. Manu Ginobili was a top 3 SG in the mid-00s (a lot better than Hayward has ever been) and would have had every right to let coming off the bench affect him, but instead he put the good of the team above himself. If Snyder feels that is best, Hayward will deal with or he will be gone.

FWIW, I don't think Hayward should come off the bench and I'm certain Snyder feels the same. But he is definitely a better fit off the bench, playing with Exum and Gobert than is Burks. His passing, ballhandling and shooting would be huge playing with those guys.

Bottom line. Burks and Hayward will start, so the discussion is moot anyway.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's a no-brainer - you've got to give the kid 65-70 consecutive starts. Does anyone think it's a homer stretch to say this kid's ceiling is all-star? You have to see how he grows in the starting unit.

If it doesn't work out it's not like you can't move him back to 6th man. Hell, Jamal Crawford started like 400 games in his career.

Yeah, it's a stretch if he can't learn how to use a pick n roll or shoot a 3.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Honestly the only reason this is even a discussion is Tyrone Corbin. IOW, Corbin brought Burks off the bench so we're talking about it. If the Jazz need scoring/playmaking off the bench, Hayward is the guy best suited for it and I'm not sure it's close. He provides shooting where the Jazz don't have it with Exum, he's a better guy in terms of making teammates better (again something the 2nd unit needs) and he can still put the ball in the basket in terms of being a scorer.

Hayward is our best player, and he is our best player at making others around him better. Not sure that is a quality you want to waste on bench guys.

Burks is best as a 6th man becasue he doesn't make anyone better from just being on the floor. He really has limited offensive skill range that is very specialized, so he has to force his own offense or he can't be effective.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Once again, if it's best for the team in terms of wins and losses, he would have to deal with it - and if he's unable to do that, trade his ***. Manu Ginobili was a top 3 SG in the mid-00s (a lot better than Hayward has ever been) and would have had every right to let coming off the bench affect him, but instead he put the good of the team above himself. If Snyder feels that is best, Hayward will deal with or he will be gone.

FWIW, I don't think Hayward should come off the bench and I'm certain Snyder feels the same. But he is definitely a better fit off the bench, playing with Exum and Gobert than is Burks. His passing, ballhandling and shooting would be huge playing with those guys.

Bottom line. Burks and Hayward will start, so the discussion is moot anyway.

I think this discussion is more about the future than the present (though I treated the poll vote as present). I think we all want to re-sign Burks, but for different reasons.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Hayward is our best player, and he is our best player at making others around him better. Not sure that is a quality you want to waste on bench guys.

Burks is best as a 6th man becasue he doesn't make anyone better from just being on the floor. He really has limited offensive skill range that is very specialized, so he has to force his own offense or he can't be effective.

First, it's the young bench guys who need a guy to make them better - not some ISO ball hog driving to the rim every time down the court. Second, when you come off the bench, that doesn't mean you play all your minutes with bench players.

To your second paragraph, again call me crazy, but the guy you described above in bold isn't what Exum and Gobert need right now. This is to say nothing of the lack of shooting with that unit.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm all for putting your 3rd-5th best starter as the leader of the 2nd unit, but not one of your top 2 guys.

I think our best lineup by the end of the year is going to be:

Burke
Exum
Hayward
Booker
Favors

Would have said Hood at the start of the year, but Exum's 3pt shooting ability has surprised me as well as how quick he learns.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

I'm all for putting your 3rd-5th best starter as the leader of the 2nd unit, but not one of your top 2 guys.

IMO, you're too hung up on ranking the players. Favors, Hayward, Burks and Burke are all so close, I'm not sure it's incredibly effective to rank them and make decisions based on that.

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt that G-time and Favors are the best two guys - again, using Ginobili and the Spurs as an example, they had him, Parker and Duncan - I think in the mid-00s, most would agree that Duncan was the best player, but after that, many would definitely put Ginobili over Parker. IOW, Popovich, who knows a little about the game, put one of his two best guys on the bench because it was the best fit for his team. He worried less about what convential wisdom would dictate and more about what worked best for his group.

 

[fishonjazz]

I worry a bit about what shape that leaves our second unit in

nothing to worry about..... quin can simply stagger his substitutions so that he always has a couple of starters in at all times

 

[Harambe]

Let him Start. Make Exum the king of the bench.

 

[The Midnight]

I'm all for putting your 3rd-5th best starter as the leader of the 2nd unit, but not one of your top 2 guys.

I think our best lineup by the end of the year is going to be:

Burke
Exum
Hayward
Booker
Favors

Would have said Hood at the start of the year, but Exum's 3pt shooting ability has surprised me as well as how quick he learns.

Really? That's interesting. By the END OF YEAR i think the best lineup would be:

Burke
Burks
Hayward
Favors
Gobert

To me best case scenario is Favors developed his jump shot (isn't he shooting 1,000 shots a day in practice?). Gobert becomes a solid starter. Hayward is consistent from 3's. Burks learns to play within the system. Burke takes another step forward and is 37% from 3's.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Really? That's interesting. By the END OF YEAR i think the best lineup would be:

Burke
Burks
Hayward
Favors
Gobert

To me best case scenario is Favors developed his jump shot (isn't he shooting 1,000 shots a day in practice?). Gobert becomes a solid starter. Hayward is consistent from 3's. Burks learns to play within the system. Burke takes another step forward and is 37% from 3's.

I would LOVE that lineup if Favors can play the 4 effectively. Then you can have Kanter, Booker, Hood and Exum sub in while Favors moves to the 5. I think that's a darned good lineup for this season, especially if they decide to move Kanter at the deadline. Hopefully if they move him, they trade him along with a bunch of draft picks for an All-Star. Then you can look at playing either Rudy or Burks off the bench,depending on what position the new guy plays. The team is solid, young and deep. Should be improved on defense and only really lacking a true #1 scoring option. Fill that role and I think all the other pieces will fit really, really well.

 

[gregbroncs]

Yeah, it's a stretch if he can't learn how to use a pick n roll or shoot a 3.

Or pass consistently. I'd love Burks if he'd just pass more than once in a while. With his ability to attack the rim he'd be deadly if he could just learn to kick it out or dish it toward the basket occasionally.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Or pass consistently. I'd love Burks if he'd just pass more than once in a while. With his ability to attack the rim he'd be deadly if he could just learn to kick it out or dish it toward the basket occasionally.

Yup, he doesn't make the right play nearly as often as say Hayward, which what allows him to have such a positive effect on his teammate's performance.

 

[gregbroncs]

nothing to worry about..... quin can simply stagger his substitutions so that he always has a couple of starters in at all times

This. Why does the entire bench have to play at the same time. I never understood that with Jerry or Corbin. Keep one of your best damn players on the court at all times. It's really not that hard to do.

 

[Nate505]

I chose the bench because I think that's where he'll be the most effective, hopefully in a great capacity like a Ginobli, but I'm fine with him starting too.

Regardless, I hope he gets 30+ minutes a game.

 

[♪alt13]

nothing to worry about..... quin can simply stagger his substitutions so that he always has a couple of starters in at all times

*****WINNER*****

 

[Stifle Tower]

This. Why does the entire bench have to play at the same time. I never understood that with Jerry or Corbin. Keep one of your best damn players on the court at all times. It's really not that hard to do.

I never understood it either and I made the same point in another thread. Take a couple of starters out at the 6 min mark, rest them until the start of the 2nd. With the quarter break, that gives them at least 8 mins. of rest. So you have two subs playing with three starters midway through the first. At the quarter break, you'd take out two of those starters. The other starter is subbed out sometime between the middle of the first and end of the quarter. In any case, that always leaves the team with at LEAST two starters in the game at all times. And all five starters play together for at least the first six and last six minutes of each half.