Organic foods

[RandyForRubio]

Fully agree that chances of you getting something organic from the store even if labeled are slim at best. As far as health concerns go I have read studies both ways and have no argument one way or another.

As far as the last statement goes about not being able to feed the world on organic food I would like to see more on this. All the studies coming out lately have shown that we can. From what I have read lately in studies is that organic farms are producing at around 97% efficiency compared to non organic farms now and their rates are more sustainable long term due to the land being harvest able for longer periods of time. Modern tech has helped the organic process quite a bit.

If it cost the same (as it should long term) and we knew it was actually organic and had a real process for ensuring that, then I am not sure why everyone wouldn't eat organic. Pesticides in small doses seem to have a low impact but long term they cant be good for your health, seems like unnecessary risk when we have the means to not use them now.

Not an expert on this at all just regurgitating what I have read lately.

In regards to yield, yeah they can get pretty close, but not on large acreage plots. We're talking 2-4 acres in general. Sometimes more, but that's mainly with stuff like wheat. Biggest problem is there's very little weed control. So you get lots of weeds, which means it's very difficult to grow certified organic seed, which is a very big issue. Another issue is labor. Organic farming is very labor intensive. Out here, there are dry land farmers who can farm 2000 acres with 2-3 workers...you need more than that to do a couple acres on organic. Where are those workers going to come from? I assure you the work isn't much fun, and doesn't pay overly well.

So yes, based off of small plot studies we could feed the world, but realistically, not a chance.

 

[RandyForRubio]

If we're looking at the list of things that need to be addressed in order to solve 'world hunger' (as if this is the priority of any farmer), stopping organic farming would drop to the bottom of the list.

I wasn't aware this was the point I was making, thanks for helping! But seriously, where did I say eliminating organic farming would solve world hunger? Ill be waiting.

And I know you were being snarky, but most farmers actually do care about feeding the world. But please keep on telling me how farmers think, I love it.

 

[Deleted member 848]

In regards to yield, yeah they can get pretty close, but not on large acreage plots.

Source? Anecdotes are only so reliable.

We're talking 2-4 acres in general. Sometimes more, but that's mainly with stuff like wheat.

This is not the opinion reflected with the 8-10 local organic farmers my family is acquainted with

Biggest problem is there's very little weed control. So you get lots of weeds, which means it's very difficult to grow certified organic seed, which is a very big issue.

There are ways to work around this, that farmers all over the world already do.

Another issue is labor. Organic farming is very labor intensive. Out here, there are dry land farmers who can farm 2000 acres with 2-3 workers...you need more than that to do a couple acres on organic. Where are those workers going to come from? I assure you the work isn't much fun, and doesn't pay overly well.

This is probably the real reason why all farmers don't jump to organic. More work.

So yes, based off of small plot studies we could feed the world, but realistically, not a chance.

more conjecture.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I wasn't aware this was the point I was making, thanks for helping! But seriously, where did I say eliminating organic farming would solve world hunger? Ill be waiting.

And I know you were being snarky, but most farmers actually do care about feeding the world. But please keep on telling me how farmers think, I love it.

Both parents farmed for generations, grandfather had a farm until he passed away, I've probably participated in 3-4 harvests thus far in my life (organic ones). Farmers by and large don't give a ****.

Your implication of organic farming resulting in world hunger is simply an inaccurate one.

 

[moevillini]

Both parents farmed for generations...

Interesting! They must have superpowers or something!


:wink:

 

[RandyForRubio]

Where the hell did I imply that organic farming is resulting in world hunger?! You criticize Cy for reading comprehension, but you're literally making stuff up here. Fact of the matter is that organic farming isn't large enough to have an impact either way.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Source? Anecdotes are only so reliable.



This is not the opinion reflected with the 8-10 local organic farmers my family is acquainted with



There are ways to work around this, that farmers all over the world already do.



This is probably the real reason why all farmers don't jump to organic. More work.



more conjecture.

Ok fine, 10 acres. Do you know how much 10 acres is? It's nothing. Most Ag scholars, and those in the actual real world, consider a small farm to be under 2000 acres. 10 acres is a small test plot.

Yes, there are ways to work around the weed issue. The current one is to purchase standard seed and label it as organic. Or shift the industry standards. That's what has been happening recently. Or I guess you could use a propane burner, but going through a few thousand acres like that doesn't seem very realistic, does it?

Yes Dala, I don't want to work more. I already work 80 hour weeks of manual labor, we employ 25 people for 10000 acres, and that's an improvement! If we were organic, we'd have to darn near quadruple our work force and work more hours. Sounds fun. (Numbers based off of what organic plots around here employ).

That's cool your family farmed some. Farming is my life man. I live and work in the industry. We give a ****. It's incredibly insulting to have you come here, spout of **** that you know nothing about, and then tell me we don't care about what we're doing.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Source? Anecdotes are only so reliable.



This is not the opinion reflected with the 8-10 local organic farmers my family is acquainted with



There are ways to work around this, that farmers all over the world already do.



This is probably the real reason why all farmers don't jump to organic. More work.



more conjecture.

You just told him anecdotes are not reliable then gave your side and quoted your anecdotal evidence.

 

[franklin]

Ok fine, 10 acres. Do you know how much 10 acres is? It's nothing. Most Ag scholars, and those in the actual real world, consider a small farm to be under 2000 acres. 10 acres is a small test plot.

Yes, there are ways to work around the weed issue. The current one is to purchase standard seed and label it as organic. Or shift the industry standards. That's what has been happening recently. Or I guess you could use a propane burner, but going through a few thousand acres like that doesn't seem very realistic, does it?

Yes Dala, I don't want to work more. I already work 80 hour weeks of manual labor, we employ 25 people for 10000 acres, and that's an improvement! If we were organic, we'd have to darn near quadruple our work force and work more hours. Sounds fun. (Numbers based off of what organic plots around here employ).

That's cool your family farmed some. Farming is my life man. I live and work in the industry. We give a ****. It's incredibly insulting to have you come here, spout of **** that you know nothing about, and then tell me we don't care about what we're doing.

But he read an article in a cause "journal" that published its own study. Every cause is legit you moran!

 

[fishonjazz]

But he read an article in a cause "journal" that published its own study. Every cause is legit you moran!

#allcausesmatter

 

[lauriandres]

1. How far from the center of Salt Like City is the nearest farm, where you can get FRESH milk? By fresh i mean which was got manually from the cow a la 5 AM so it is still warm at 6 AM?
2. The same question applies to get natural eggs. I.e not from industrial site but from somebody who has hens at home.
3. Does some of you grow tomatoes at home? Do you need a greenhouse for that in Utah?

In, Tallinn, Estonia it was pretty common to get milk from local market. Of course, due to EU regulations (after 2004)it is difficult now. However on the countryside if you have friendly farmers, you can still get the fresh milk.
Getting natural eggs are quite easy.
We have our own greenhouse for tomatoes, basil and cucumber. We have to plant seeds at the end of march at the room temperature and we can plant the grown up plants to greenhouse in the middle of may. First tomatoes are usually ready in the mid july. Tomatoes offered even in expensive restaurants are kind of crap compared to the home grown ones.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Fresh milk (raw) isn't allowed to be sold in the US, has to be pasteurized. Pretty sure that's how it is.

Reason the tomatoes from your garden taste better is BC they're on the vine longer. Natural sugars that we can't replicate.

 

[JFFR]

Fresh milk (raw) isn't allowed to be sold in the US, has to be pasteurized. Pretty sure that's how it is.

Reason the tomatoes from your garden taste better is BC they're on the vine longer. Natural sugars that we can't replicate.

Unpasteurized milk is banned by federal government but is allowed in certain states (but it is not allowed to cross state lines/ interstate commerce clause.) You can buy raw milk in Utah, there was an outbreak associated with it earlier this year.

 

[Harambe]

Whole bunch of talk here... unlike other subjects, I'm not educated enough in this subject to make a claim in the grand stage of should all be or not.

But I can speak from a cooking perspective: when your dish/salad/whatever only calls for a few ingredients, especially if uncooked, organic is the choice. And, usually, it's not even close.

Example; Caprese salad. Organic Tomato and Basil, respectable cheese, and top shelf olive oil and balsamic, S&P. Five substantive items, uncooked. Simple, elegant, delicious. Will be good with non-organic vegetables, but the difference in taste is worth the price.

Making a stew? no one's going to notice the difference between organic carrots and potatoes, why pay the premium?

I feel like there's room in, and need for both organic and non in this world.

 

[Getting Traded]

I'd like to give some input on this because I've read widely on it.

It is very controversial because you have scientists on both sides of the fence. I tend to side with the organic position. The increase in cancer worldwide, especially among young people, is mainly the result of diet (but also other toxic chemicals being released into the environment) -- read The Secret History of the War on Cancer by Devra Davis, an epidemiologist who worked for the National Academy of Sciences and studied the causes of cancer.

Then there is the whole issue of GMOs that breed crops that are resistant to pesticides and herbicides -- yet there are scientists saying it allows less use of chemicals (hard to believe that) or they say organic farmers use "natural" pesticides (they, being the scientists working for Monsanto). The organic farmers will tell you that GMO cultivation destroys the soil and that a few weeds are good for the ecosystem. Who do you believe the organic farmers or Monsanto, the company that gave you Agent Orange and host of other toxic chemicals?

I'm a fan of Mercola; I believe he's trying to get at the truth. Subscribe to his newsletter and you will learn a lot.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I'd like to give some input on this because I've read widely on it.

It is very controversial because you have scientists on both sides of the fence. I tend to side with the organic position. The increase in cancer worldwide, especially among young people, is mainly the result of diet (but also other toxic chemicals being released into the environment) -- read The Secret History of the War on Cancer by Devra Davis, an epidemiologist who worked for the National Academy of Sciences and studied the causes of cancer.

Then there is the whole issue of GMOs that breed crops that are resistant to pesticides and herbicides -- yet there are scientists saying it allows less use of chemicals (hard to believe that) or they say organic farmers use "natural" pesticides (they, being the scientists working for Monsanto). The organic farmers will tell you that GMO cultivation destroys the soil and that a few weeds are good for the ecosystem. Who do you believe the organic farmers or Monsanto, the company that gave you Agent Orange and host of other toxic chemicals?

I'm a fan of Mercola; I believe he's trying to get at the truth. Subscribe to his newsletter and you will learn a lot.

In regards to cancer and pesticides, read Bruce Ames studies. It makes a ton of sense.

As far as GMO's, they do result in a decrease of pesticides. Pretty brilliant tbh. I would love to hear your case for why/how GMO cultivation is wrecking our soil, that should be pretty interesting.

You make it sound like organic farmers are the bastions of truth and Monsanto is pure evil. The truth lies more in the middle. Organic farmers can make a lot of money, they're not all ideologues. Why do you think so many dropped out and went back to conventional farming when organic prices dropped? Now all of a sudden they're back into organic farming again? Smells like money chasers to me. Anyways, I wouldn't worry about pesticide damage to your body. You're not the one applying it, and most of the toxins in your foods are natural anyways. Chances of a person getting sick from pesticides in their food are incredibly remote. Blame it on the GMO's though.

 

[♪alt13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw-QDW1ntGY

 

[Stifle Tower]

Chances of a person getting sick from pesticides in their food are incredibly remote.

Are you serious? It takes DECADES to get companies to pull products off the market - and only after the cases can no longer be ignored by the government, drowned out by lobbyists and lawsuits outweigh the profit derived from sales.

I'm not saying all chemical products are harmful, nor are all GMO's bad. We just need to keep abreast of ALL studies because the ones that have found them safe have historically been funded by the very companies behind them, either directly or through foundations which receive major funding by these companies.

 

[lauriandres]

Fresh milk (raw) isn't allowed to be sold in the US, has to be pasteurized. Pretty sure that's how it is.

Reason the tomatoes from your garden taste better is BC they're on the vine longer. Natural sugars that we can't replicate.

Does it mean that if you own a cow, then you are not even allowed to give milk for free (to friends, neighbours etc.)?
In Estonia thanks to EU even owning a single cow is quite difficult due the regulations that the room for the cow cannot be a random shack, but quite comfortable for the cow. So basically all the poor people in the countryside were thrown under the bus, because it was impossible to give milk to small factories and consuming even with neighbours all that fresh milk is kind of difficult.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Are you serious? It takes DECADES to get companies to pull products off the market - and only after the cases can no longer be ignored by the government, drowned out by lobbyists and lawsuits outweigh the profit derived from sales.

I'm not saying all chemical products are harmful, nor are all GMO's bad. We just need to keep abreast of ALL studies because the ones that have found them safe have historically been funded by the very companies behind them, either directly or through foundations which receive major funding by these companies.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what you quoted from me. But honestly, if you're scared of eating BC your food might have pesticides on it, you're missing the point. All foods have a very, very small amount of toxins in them, natural and synthetic (organic foods actually have more toxins in them, believe that was in a study done by Ames). The chances of you getting sick from those are incredibly small. Like, it doesn't happen. Rare.

Does it mean that if you own a cow, then you are not even allowed to give milk for free (to friends, neighbours etc.)?
In Estonia thanks to EU even owning a single cow is quite difficult due the regulations that the room for the cow cannot be a random shack, but quite comfortable for the cow. So basically all the poor people in the countryside were thrown under the bus, because it was impossible to give milk to small factories and consuming even with neighbours all that fresh milk is kind of difficult.

Well apparently I was wrong, people just can't sell it.

Sounds like a dumb law from the EU. How did you become a jazz fan in Estonia?