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Putin has pwned Obama

Revolution 9 said:
Wrong. Obama is letting Russia do some work for once.

Let them spend some money in Syria, and take out some ISIS. Russia is grasping at straws. Our alliance in the old soviet block is VERY strong. I work on the training base here in Germany, and speak to all the different countries that train here.
We are united in showing strength against his little tinkering. We just did a a giant convoy from my area to Estonia. Mostly people were lining up with US flags, and people cheering us all the way. We were greeted as rock stars.
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The old soviet block isn't the problem. The issue is whether the old Nato block will live up to their commitments to those countries if really pressed by Russia. Putin knows we are "pivoting toward Asia". He's testing our commitment in Europe and showing just what little backbone the other traditional Nato powers have.
 
Revolution 9 said:
I dont agree. Struggling to respond? What would be a better course of actions? lol. And taking out Assad is not the answer. As bad as he is what awaits to fill that vacuum is probably much worse. There is no blind siding here. Putin is just poking around in a new place because hes shut down everywhere else. Russia doesnt need to be completely feared either. Whats your solution? Seriously? Deny him access? Start a war over Syria? We shouldnt even be in there to begin with. We are watching them closely, as they are us. Its two superpowers puffing up their chest. Only we have a lot more support, and are leading the fight. Do you realize all the troops we've "secretly" put on the boarder with russia. Putin is shut down there, now hes trying somewhere else. big bold responses arent always the best stoked. come on.

We are stronger in the soviet block than really ever before. Bush did some good things in Poland, and Obama has continued to strengthen the ties. We also work very closely with Romania, Czech Republic, and Bulgaria.
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What response has Obama had? Nothing. He hasn't embraced anything yet. To me that is struggling. He talked to Putin privately and Russia completely did the opposite the next day.

Since then it's been throw party critique. That's not a policy.

As for Syria, it has a very strategic importance to Russia. The Russian naval base in Tartas is very important to them. It's their only warm water port in the world. If Assad falls there is a good chance they lose that port of a pro western gov takes power.

Russia is pushing and meddling in Ukraine, Syria, Yemen and the south China sea. Don't take this fledging alliance as floundering. It's not. It's foundation laying. Aside from the port Syria is only a pawn. It's not the end game. It helps unite a unified front in the Middle East for them. If theyanage to connect Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan...

Russia picked fights in Ukraine and Georgia because they both wanted to join NATO and a country cannot join with active border disputes. It limits NATOs ability to further encircle Russia. Smart.

The already have N Korea, Belarus and the "stans" on board. China (and by result Mongolia and Cambodia) gets closer every day. As does Nicaragua, Venezuela, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Russia is playing the long game Rev. You have to start some where.
 
Russia ought to be a force on this planet. There's no reason for them not to be.

Same with China.

India might be the next big mover and shaker in the next decade.

This world is full of humans. No reason one nation of the species should be subservient to another. Of course, some nations will needs bigger friends to help them. Hopefully this planet finds a balance that is reasonably fair and acceptable to the majority of humans on it.

What's honestly scary to me is that future generations of Americans pay for the arrogance, cruelty and destruction the U.S. has engaged in with a complete lack of accountability since the onset of the Cold War until today.
 
Gameface said:
Russia ought to be a force on this planet. There's no reason for them not to be.

Same with China.

India might be the next big mover and shaker in the next decade.

This world is full of humans. No reason one nation of the species should be subservient to another. Of course, some nations will needs bigger friends to help them. Hopefully this planet finds a balance that is reasonably fair and acceptable to the majority of humans on it.

What's honestly scary to me is that future generations of Americans pay for the arrogance, cruelty and destruction the U.S. has engaged in with a complete lack of accountability since the onset of the Cold War until today.
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Unfortunately the rise of Russia and China seems to be coming at the expense of American allies. Allies that we have military defense pacts with like Japan, Philippines and the Baltics.

We should all be able to play nice and make room at the table for them. But human nature will kick in and fights will happen.

On a tangent, I think it is time that Japan, India, Germany, Brazil and S. Africa became permanent Security council members. It's not like that council gets anything done anyways. If the US pushed for all of them to be included it would create some good will with those nations.
 
Stoked said:
What response has Obama had? Nothing. He hasn't embraced anything yet. To me that is struggling. He talked to Putin privately and Russia completely did the opposite the next day.

Since then it's been throw party critique. That's not a policy.

As for Syria, it has a very strategic importance to Russia. The Russian naval base in Tartas is very important to them. It's their only warm water port in the world. If Assad falls there is a good chance they lose that port of a pro western gov takes power.

Russia is pushing and meddling in Ukraine, Syria, Yemen and the south China sea. Don't take this fledging alliance as floundering. It's not. It's foundation laying. Aside from the port Syria is only a pawn. It's not the end game. It helps unite a unified front in the Middle East for them. If theyanage to connect Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan...

Russia picked fights in Ukraine and Georgia because they both wanted to join NATO and a country cannot join with active border disputes. It limits NATOs ability to further encircle Russia. Smart.

The already have N Korea, Belarus and the "stans" on board. China (and by result Mongolia and Cambodia) gets closer every day. As does Nicaragua, Venezuela, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Russia is playing the long game Rev. You have to start some where.
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You said it right my friend. The long GAME. Game being the key world. Posturing. I like how you say meeting with him is doing nothing. Again you, and many people against his foreign policy have come up
with zero alternatives. This one guy was blasting Obama on Fox the other day about Iran. They actually asked him what he would do. More sanctions was his answer. lol. Really?

Hes had great success at foreign policy, and you know why. We havent gone to war, and things that we should be worried about havent really escalated. We are stopping them at every turn. When tough talk republicans say we should scare him or show our might that is what
would escalate things. Trump wants to put ground troops back in Iraq. Is that really what you want? We will lose a lot of lives, money, and for what?

I get that you and some are frustrated with a calm smooth less aggressive approach, but thats what keeps us OUT of conflicts. I want less war, and less loss of American life. In that regard Obama has hit a home run. If Putin attacks us, and kills Americans THAT would be getting owned, and overmatched. Not this BS going on in Syria!
 
Revolution 9 said:
You said it right my friend. The long GAME. Game being the key world. Posturing. I like how you say meeting with him is doing nothing. Again you, and many people against his foreign policy have come up
with zero alternatives. This one guy was blasting Obama on Fox the other day about Iran. They actually asked him what he would do. More sanctions was his answer. lol. Really?

Hes had great success at foreign policy, and you know why. We havent gone to war, and things that we should be worried about havent really escalated. We are stopping them at every turn. When tough talk republicans say we should scare him or show our might that is what
would escalate things. Trump wants to put ground troops back in Iraq. Is that really what you want? We will lose a lot of lives, money, and for what?

I get that you and some are frustrated with a calm smooth less aggressive approach, but thats what keeps us OUT of conflicts. I want less war, and less loss of American life. In that regard Obama has hit a home run. If Putin attacks us, and kills Americans THAT would be getting owned, and overmatched. Not this BS going on in Syria!
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What I worry about is not the big dogs (US, China, Russia, UK...) starting a war but a 3rd party some one is tied to. Say Poland send troops into Ukraine and ends up in a pitched battle with Russian troops? Then what?

Or the Philippines and China start having their ships fire on each other? What then?

Obama was blind sided and arranged a side meeting with Putin. The next day Putin gave him the finger and went ahead with strikes and Obama has yet to respond.

As for sanctions lol, I'm not Carly Fiorina. If anything I have been arguing that Russia is making sanctions ever less effective by its growing list of allies. (I can name 20+ nations) that have joined or are leaning towards joining Russia in flaunting any sanctions order.

Obama reduced boots on the ground but we have still been at war Revo. We haven't stopped fighting. We are fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria right now! Is that all Obama? No, he inherited a lot, some would argue most, of it.

But Russia is playing a lot of these games because Obama is seen as weak. He is seen as weak because Obama takes a stance, gets called on it and folds.

He did so on Poland, the Czech and Syria just off the top of my head.

Please don't ever use Trump in applying anything to me. The man is a disgrace and the GOP should be ashamed.
 
Stoked said:
What I worry about is not the big dogs (US, China, Russia, UK...) starting a war but a 3rd party some one is tied to. Say Poland send troops into Ukraine and ends up in a pitched battle with Russian troops? Then what?

Or the Philippines and China start having their ships fire on each other? What then?

Obama was blind sided and arranged a side meeting with Putin. The next day Putin gave him the finger and went ahead with strikes and Obama has yet to respond.

As for sanctions lol, I'm not Carly Fiorina. If anything I have been arguing that Russia is making sanctions ever less effective by its growing list of allies. (I can name 20+ nations) that have joined or are leaning towards joining Russia in flaunting any sanctions order.

Obama reduced boots on the ground but we have still been at war Revo. We haven't stopped fighting. We are fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria right now! Is that all Obama? No, he inherited a lot, some would argue most, of it.

But Russia is playing a lot of these games because Obama is seen as weak. He is seen as weak because Obama takes a stance, gets called on it and folds.

He did so on Poland, the Czech and Syria just off the top of my head.

Please don't ever use Trump in applying anything to me. The man is a disgrace and the GOP should be ashamed.
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Wars happen, and will happen. The world is shifting, and there will be new challenges ahead. I am just not afraid of whats to come. We cant stop countries from rising just because they arent us.
Imo we are weak, because of our inability to communicate, our love of cheap goods, and our lack of respect for each other. We arent united anymore. Or we are much less united than we used to be.
That will be our downfall. Not our leaders. They are a product of us.

Obama is seen as weak by the GOP. I dont agree that the rest of the world thinks that, or doesnt like him as a leader.
Yes, hes made some mistakes. Drawing the line in the sand with Bashar, and not responding being one. Again, I believe he asked congress for approval and was denied.
People were complaining about his abuse of power, and then when he asked they they say weak. Its not a black and white issue wouldnt you agree? Certainly he does
have a part to blame in that one.
The people I talk to in Europe really only dislike his liberal use of drones. When the GOP keeps saying the world doesnt respect Obama, and they are laughing at us.
That is their option, and I think its complete BS. I think they are laughing at people like Trump and Bush. Europe doesnt like aggressive foreign policy, and is far more
like Obama than what the Republican party is these days.

The whole boots on the ground thing is very debatable. I agree its a grey issue, and Im not sure exactly what we should do(should have done). From every single solider I have talked to in Germany that has been an
Iraq war vet they have all said we should get out(and stay out!). We cannot change them. Its pointless to support these different groups who one day are on your side, and one day
are against you. They arent our friends. I trust the people that have actually been there. I do really respect Rand Paul who says we should be careful about replacing
Dictators because the vacuum it creates usually is filled by someone worse. He said some interesting things in that last debate. Sadam basically held Iran at bay.
Now that the ****es are in control they're ties to Iran are much stronger. When we came in it disrupted the natural balance of things. Talk about a massive foreign policy
failure. That my friend is what weakness is. The loss of life, the the loss of billions of dollars. Complete and utter chaos!

The big question is what should we do. Stay in Iraq forever? Its a tough call because if we stay we could prevent ISIS from taking so much control. We also spend money
we dont have, and lose American lives for imo not a good enough reason. I believe that whenever we left Iraq this situation would have occurred. Certainly for the next 15 years.
Is it worth that investment? Its debatable for sure. Should we have left bases all of Iraq, and waited decades until it was safer for us to leave?

Sorry Stoked for the long response I love talking about this current crisis. You are a moderate reasonable conservative, and I enjoy having these discussions with you. Kind of
hard over the internet, but I certainly do enjoying hearing your point of view. I dont want to come across as an *******. I believe strongly in my views, and I think Ive done a lot
of research to give me me a broad perspective. You know Im not a blind liberal who is against everything the right says. You know I dislike Hillary, and think Bill was overrated. I do really like Obama, and think hes a lot better than the Clintons, but not without fault. No one is or ever will be. I long for the 80s when the dems and reps at least had an air of mutual respect, and seemed like they were on the same team(just with different
ideas). Now we are inundated with childish insults, and soundbite attacks. Its disgusting.
 
Maybe we should uncomplicate things and just leave the Middle East alone?

Don't we have enough problems here to deal with?
 
The Thriller said:
Maybe we should uncomplicate things and just leave the Middle East alone?

Don't we have enough problems here to deal with?
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For once we agree Thriller. America should pull back towards established allies and refocus on other. Keep NATO, Israel, S. Korea, Japan, Australia, Philippines and the islands between us and them. Improve those alliances which to me includes making NATO countries foot more of the NATO bill.

With draw from the rest of the world militarily. Such as the Middle East.

Then refocus, non militarily, on Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. Including Cuba. Work on bringing them into the 1st world, fight corruption, improve education, healthcare and their own knowledge base to maintain the improvements. Treat them as equals for once.

If Europe, our Asian allies (this one is already happening) are more capable along with a capable and friendly Caribbean and Central America with a strong Americ behind them then we are more than secure.
 
https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/politics/russia-syria-isis/

Russia has now twice violated Turkey's airspace. Another time a Russian Mig29 target locked 4 Turkish F16s for over 4 minutes. No one fired. Turkey is a NATO ally.

Russia has moved jamming equipment (thought to possibly be aimed at US Coalition aircraft)into Syria as well as ground troops.

President Obama authorized the resupplying of Syrian opposition groups and Syrian Kurds. No mention of what specifically we are providing them.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-up-against-growing-support-for-a-no-fly-zone-in-syria/

Growing US support for a No-Fly-Zone in Syria. Including Clinton, Kasich, Fiorina and Christie.


Can't link the article but Saudi clerics are starting to call for action against Russia and Iran.

https://news.yahoo.com/egypt-says-russias-intervention-syria-counter-terrorism-222034415.html

In an interesting twist Egypt (part of the Saudi coalition in Yemen) has broke ranks and voiced support for the Russian intervention in Syria.
 
The Thriller said:
Maybe we should uncomplicate things and just leave the Middle East alone?

Don't we have enough problems here to deal with?
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I think we need to simply evaluate who are our allies and who aren't. I don't think we can leave the Kurds/Yazidis at this point. They would be facing genocide. I know we can't fix the whole world but because it is within our power to prevent the worst of the worst we should. We can't let things like what happened in Rwanda or Sarajevo go unchallenged. We just simply can't. If we can provide some stability in order to prevent them then all the better. I think that in Syria and Iraq there are clear and significant moral reasons for the US to take action.

So far Obama's goals in Iraq and Syria(as well as just about everywhere else) have been poorly defined and do not line up with the aspirations of any faction on the ground. I really really don't want to go back to a dubbya "impose our will" method of foreign policy but I don't think that Obama's fecklessness is much better(obvi Putin agrees with me).
 
Stoked said:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/politics/russia-syria-isis/

Russia has now twice violated Turkey's airspace. Another time a Russian Mig29 target locked 4 Turkish F16s for over 4 minutes. No one fired. Turkey is a NATO ally.

Russia has moved jamming equipment (thought to possibly be aimed at US Coalition aircraft)into Syria as well as ground troops.

President Obama authorized the resupplying of Syrian opposition groups and Syrian Kurds. No mention of what specifically we are providing them.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-up-against-growing-support-for-a-no-fly-zone-in-syria/

Growing US support for a No-Fly-Zone in Syria. Including Clinton, Kasich, Fiorina and Christie.


Can't link the article but Saudi clerics are starting to call for action against Russia and Iran.

https://news.yahoo.com/egypt-says-russias-intervention-syria-counter-terrorism-222034415.html

In an interesting twist Egypt (part of the Saudi coalition in Yemen) has broke ranks and voiced support for the Russian intervention in Syria.
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Nato should be sending a massive show of Force to protect Turkish airspace. Every Nato ally should should get involved. Putin is poking at Nato's "border" looking for weak spots. It's best we turn him back before he gets more confident.
 
♪alt13 said:
Nato should be sending a massive show of Force to protect Turkish airspace. Every Nato ally should should get involved. Putin is poking at Nato's "border" looking for weak spots. It's best we turn him back before he gets more confident.
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NATO already has the forces in place to do so. There are already American warplanes in Turkey along the Syrian border.

In Syria and Iraq there are Canadians, Belgians, British, French, Americans and Turkish forces.

I say launch two massive air strikes at the same time into Syria. America and Turkey from their border and the other 4 other nations listed from the Iraqi border. Right before this happens the NATO headquarters needs to call the head of the Russian delegation there and basically tell them to pay attention and lodge a formal complaint about the violations of Turkish airspace and the probing of the Baltics and tell them a third time will not go unanswered.

Putin understands strength.
 
Stoked said:
NATO already has the forces in place to do so. There are already American warplanes in Turkey along the Syrian border.

In Syria and Iraq there are Canadians, Belgians, British, French, Americans and Turkish forces.

I say launch two massive air strikes at the same time into Syria. America and Turkey from their border and the other 4 other nations listed from the Iraqi border. Right before this happens the NATO headquarters needs to call the head of the Russian delegation there and basically tell them to pay attention and lodge a formal complaint about the violations of Turkish airspace and the probing of the Baltics and tell them a third time will not go unanswered.

Putin understands strength.
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And Stoked understands foreign relations!
 
Stoked said:
NATO already has the forces in place to do so. There are already American warplanes in Turkey along the Syrian border.

In Syria and Iraq there are Canadians, Belgians, British, French, Americans and Turkish forces.

I say launch two massive air strikes at the same time into Syria. America and Turkey from their border and the other 4 other nations listed from the Iraqi border. Right before this happens the NATO headquarters needs to call the head of the Russian delegation there and basically tell them to pay attention and lodge a formal complaint about the violations of Turkish airspace and the probing of the Baltics and tell them a third time will not go unanswered.

Putin understands strength.
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Agreed.

I'm aware that there is Nato air presence there but Turkey just a year ago complained that it was not sufficient(they may have also said so more recently but I haven't read that). Putin knows Turkey is basically the ugly duckling. He suspects that Nato powers(especially European ones) will get nervous likely tighten up rules of engagement, reduce the number or scope of patrols, and may even recall some forces for "maintenance". The Dutch recalled mobile surface to air missile defense systems last year from Turkey when ISIS was approaching the Turkish border. Obama needs to lead on this. I think we need to do something like the Berlin Air drops. Show that we are srs and will not be bullied or deterred. Putin will back down if he sees that Nato is ready to commit real resources to defend Turkish sovereignty.
 
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