Feast or Famine Free Agency

[infection]

Burks + The Trio should work (not sure the Cavs would be interested in what the Jazz would offer considering they can't just absorb the entire contract).

We’d have to offer something, though, as they’d just be swapping out the same salary that expires next summer, unless they anticipate Love opting in. On the flip side, i can’t think of any young team that would want to give up anything good for a 30 year old Love who can opt out after a year. Likewise, I can’t see anyone near the top having anything to offer and looking to add him. Houston would be interesting if they had any assets to swap Anderson and Love, but I’d imagine a number of their assets went in the Paul trade.

We could trade the trio when their contracts guarantee, which would be in July, presumably after LeBron’s decision, but what would we have that would make it worthwhile for Cleveland to still have the same salary on their books?

 

[LoPo]

Yea. Can't have another defensively challenged player on the floor when we've already got that total turnstile in Gobert...

Dude, wtf are you talking about?

The Warriors targeted Love on the switch all night long. They did that for two reasons -
#1 - he isn't a great on ball defender when guarding somebody like Steph Curry. Curry and Klay torched Love last night.
#2 - getting him out on the perimeter takes away his best strength which is rebounding. Cleveland won the rebounding battle by 15 in Game 1 and it was close to even Game 2.

Gobert is an amazing player, but he does struggle against guys like Curry. If we are going to beat GS, we have to prepare for that scenario. Chris Paul did a great job against Gobert on the midrange. Curry can do the same thing but get Gobert even further away from protecting the basket. If we played Love and Gobert together, GS would get Gobert in the switch and ask that Love protect the basket which he simply does not do. If they get Love in the switch vs Curry, they would surround Curry with shooters so when Curry blows by Love, Gobert has to decide to stay on his man in the corner or just take away the easy 2. GS will play the analytics and shoot the wide open 3 or easy 2.

Love and Gobert together simply would not work against this Golden State team. That's why I said I think we could defend GS pretty well with a lineup of Rubio, DM, O'Neale, Ingles and Crowder. And of course we could switch Crowder and Gobert depending on the GS lineup on the floor.

 

[radiohegel]

The Warriors targeted Love on the switch all night long. They did that for two reasons -
#1 - he isn't a great on ball defender when guarding somebody like Steph Curry. Curry and Klay torched Love last night.
#2 - getting him out on the perimeter takes away his best strength which is rebounding. Cleveland won the rebounding battle by 15 in Game 1 and it was close to even Game 2.

Gobert is an amazing player, but he does struggle against guys like Curry. If we are going to beat GS, we have to prepare for that scenario. Chris Paul did a great job against Gobert on the midrange. Curry can do the same thing but get Gobert even further away from protecting the basket. If we played Love and Gobert together, GS would get Gobert in the switch and ask that Love protect the basket which he simply does not do. If they get Love in the switch vs Curry, they would surround Curry with shooters so when Curry blows by Love, Gobert has to decide to stay on his man in the corner or just take away the easy 2. GS will play the analytics and shoot the wide open 3 or easy 2.

Love and Gobert together simply would not work against this Golden State team. That's why I said I think we could defend GS pretty well with a lineup of Rubio, DM, O'Neale, Ingles and Crowder. And of course we could switch Crowder and Gobert depending on the GS lineup on the floor.

What you are arguing doesn't really have anything to do with Kevin Love, aside from pointing out the obvious regarding him being a poor defender. The idea that Rudy Gobert is somehow a defensive liability is shameful. Saying he struggles guarding Steph Curry on the perimeter is a nonstatement. There isn't a person in the world who doesn't struggle against Steph Curry. It's why he is Steph Curry.

Chris Paul did do a great job in the midrange, but that doesn't change the fact that he was playing the game the Jazz wanted him playing. I think a lot of people around here are still failing to recognize that. CP3 played the game the Jazz forced him into, and he played phenomenally well and beat them at it. It happens. It doesn't change the fact that it was the best option for giving the Jazz the best possibility of beating the Rockets. Don't fool yourself thinking that Chris Paul somehow found something and exploited it. He just hit his shots. If you go back and watch the OKC series, it's the same strategy they used to neutralize Westbrook.

The Warriors would be completely beside themselves with excitement if they found out the Jazz were going to roll out without Rudy Gobert. Did you happen to notice the wide open looks JaVale got at the rim last night?

Anyways, I'm glad that DL doesn't have such an overreactive relationship with basketball.

 

[LoPo]

What you are arguing doesn't really have anything to do with Kevin Love, aside from pointing out the obvious regarding him being a poor defender. The idea that Rudy Gobert is somehow a defensive liability is shameful. Saying he struggles guarding Steph Curry on the perimeter is a nonstatement. There isn't a person in the world who doesn't struggle against Steph Curry. It's why he is Steph Curry.

Chris Paul did do a great job in the midrange, but that doesn't change the fact that he was playing the game the Jazz wanted him playing. I think a lot of people around here are still failing to recognize that. CP3 played the game the Jazz forced him into, and he played phenomenally well and beat them at it. It happens. It doesn't change the fact that it was the best option for giving the Jazz the best possibility of beating the Rockets. Don't fool yourself thinking that Chris Paul somehow found something and exploited it. He just hit his shots. If you go back and watch the OKC series, it's the same strategy they used to neutralize Westbrook.

The Warriors would be completely beside themselves with excitement if they found out the Jazz were going to roll out without Rudy Gobert. Did you happen to notice the wide open looks JaVale got at the rim last night?

Anyways, I'm glad that DL doesn't have such an overreactive relationship with basketball.

Okay, let me clarify. There is a reason that GS went out of their way to get Curry on Love all night long. And Curry ended up breaking the Finals record for 3's in a game. Whether we had Gobert or not, Love is a liability, he's only getting older, he's overpaid and I don't want him. Having Gobert isn't going to help Love not get torched on the perimeter.

As for Chris Paul, you are wrong on your analysis there. CP3 didn't play the game the Jazz forced him into, CP3 played the game he forced Gobert into. When we put whoever was guarding CP3 and Gobert vs Paul and Capella, they picked out CP3 on Gobert intentionally. That's not something we did to them it was something they did to us. CP3 would try to drive to the midrange and do one of three things - stop and pop, lob to Capella or dish to a wing on the perimeter.

And as I said numerous times, of course Gobert is in our lineup against GS. And if they start McGee, he's definitely out there. My initial point was that Rubio, DM, Ingles, O'Neale and Crowder could probably fare well against that GS Hampton's 5 lineup.

 

[radiohegel]

As for Chris Paul, you are wrong on your analysis there. CP3 didn't play the game the Jazz forced him into, CP3 played the game he forced Gobert into. When we put whoever was guarding CP3 and Gobert vs Paul and Capella, they picked out CP3 on Gobert intentionally. That's not something we did to them it was something they did to us. CP3 would try to drive to the midrange and do one of three things - stop and pop, lob to Capella or dish to a wing on the perimeter.

Thanks for explaining how a pick and roll works.

The Jazz want the mid-range stop and pop shot. That's what they got. CP3 made them.

 

[LoPo]

Thanks for explaining how a pick and roll works.

The Jazz want the mid-range stop and pop shot. That's what they got. CP3 made them.

So, according to you, we wanted Gobert on Chris Paul. I disagree, but you can have that one.

So, according to me, I don't want Love on Curry or Paul or Harden or any of our future competition.

 

[radiohegel]

So, according to you, we wanted Gobert on Chris Paul. I disagree, but you can have that one.

So, according to me, I don't want Love on Curry or Paul or Harden or any of our future competition.

Do you really have this limited a view of the game, or are you being fascetious? We are talking about a simple defensive strategy for handling pick and rolls. Rudy protects the rim, perimeter defenders guard against a perimeter shot. The lowest value shot the offensive team can get out of the pick and roll is a midrange pull up. Accordingly, that is the shot the Jazz want to be the result out of a pick and roll. It has nothing to do with 'wanting Gobert on Chris Paul', it's just how basic team defense works. If you have Gobert switch too aggressively to prevent the CP3 pullup, CP3 is driving to the rim, or hitting Capela on the roll. Both options are higher value than the midrange pull, so that's a net negative strategy. If you pull in a help defender from the perimeter to guard CP3 on the midrange pullup CP3 hits the now open perimeter shooter. See where this is going? The entire defensive scheme for the Jazz is built around forcing midrange shots. CP3 made them at a much higher than average rate. Great job on his part, but it doesn't mean the Jazz got exploited. At a certain point, you just have to concede that the team that plays the best wins. CP3 had an unbelievable series, but with no fault to Rudy Gobert.

As for Kevin Love, I'm not particularly interested in having him either. That's not what my initial bafflement was about though; it was concerning your suggestion that Kevin Love would be a defensive liability when paired with Gobert. As you have now established, Gobert's involvement in the situation doesn't really mean anything, so whatever. But this is a lot to go through to simply say: 'Kevin Love is a poor defender, and I don't want him on our team because of it'.

 

[LoPo]

Do you really have this limited a view of the game, or are you being fascetious? We are talking about a simple defensive strategy for handling pick and rolls. Rudy protects the rim, perimeter defenders guard against a perimeter shot. The lowest value shot the offensive team can get out of the pick and roll is a midrange pull up. Accordingly, that is the shot the Jazz want to be the result out of a pick and roll. It has nothing to do with 'wanting Gobert on Chris Paul', it's just how basic team defense works. If you have Gobert switch too aggressively to prevent the CP3 pullup, CP3 is driving to the rim, or hitting Capela on the roll. Both options are higher value than the midrange pull, so that's a net negative strategy. If you pull in a help defender from the perimeter to guard CP3 on the midrange pullup CP3 hits the now open perimeter shooter. See where this is going? The entire defensive scheme for the Jazz is built around forcing midrange shots. CP3 made them at a much higher than average rate. Great job on his part, but it doesn't mean the Jazz got exploited. At a certain point, you just have to concede that the team that plays the best wins. CP3 had an unbelievable series, but with no fault to Rudy Gobert.

As for Kevin Love, I'm not particularly interested in having him either. That's not what my initial bafflement was about though; it was concerning your suggestion that Kevin Love would be a defensive liability when paired with Gobert. As you have now established, Gobert's involvement in the situation doesn't really mean anything, so whatever. But this is a lot to go through to simply say: 'Kevin Love is a poor defender, and I don't want him on our team because of it'.

Capella outplayed Gobert for a majority of the series due to Chris Paul's ability to get Gobert 1v1 plus Capella's athletic ability around the rim. We can break down that all we want. I'm perfectly fine adapting to any perceived issue that Gobert may or may not have with smaller guards and the roll man.

So essentially, none of the Gobert issues have anything to do with Love other than the fact that Love presents us with another slower, bulkier player to worry about on the perimeter. And offensively, I don't think Love is what we need. His shooting is good but not elite. He can post up, but he is not elite at finishing there either. There are a bunch of people who post around here who think he's a good idea. Against Houston or GS, I don't think he gets us farther than with what we currently have. And the price to get him (trade compensation) and keep him (financially) would destroy other initiatives.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We’d have to offer something, though, as they’d just be swapping out the same salary that expires next summer, unless they anticipate Love opting in. On the flip side, i can’t think of any young team that would want to give up anything good for a 30 year old Love who can opt out after a year. Likewise, I can’t see anyone near the top having anything to offer and looking to add him. Houston would be interesting if they had any assets to swap Anderson and Love, but I’d imagine a number of their assets went in the Paul trade.

We could trade the trio when their contracts guarantee, which would be in July, presumably after LeBron’s decision, but what would we have that would make it worthwhile for Cleveland to still have the same salary on their books?

Just an FYI... we can guarantee the deals whenever we want... once we do they can be traded and have some salary value in the trade.

 

[gregbroncs]

On the flip side, he’d really help unlock the offense, and fit well with Gobert. Gobert can cover a lot of his defensive abilities. Also think he’d flourish more away from LBJ.

I don't think so. His best attribute used to be his rebounding, a waste next to Gobert. His shooting is so so and he's not that athletic and can't guard the perimeter even as well as Favors does. I don't get the attraction of Jazz fans for an over rated Kevin Love.

Consider me not interested.

 

[gregbroncs]

Yea. Can't have another defensively challenged player on the floor when we've already got that total turnstile in Gobert...

Dude, wtf are you talking about?

I think he means we would have 2 guys on the floor who can't guard the perimeter and one of those 2 also doesn't protect the rim.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And anybody who watches Kevin Love closely and still wants to add him is crazy. The guy is often a liability on the defensive end. Does not protect the rim at all. And he is not an elite floor spreader either. Not interested

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

Love shot 42% from 3 this year....

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not concerned with Love's defense... he's a little underrated when switching out... he can do okay there. He knows where to be most of the time.

My concern on Love is he hasn't really beat up guys in the post in a while. He can still murder people on the offensive glass, but you can kinda get away with using a big wing guarding him. I'd love to know if his offensive game has been neutered by weight loss and less usage (due to playing with LBJ) or if the NBA game has moved away from some of the stuff he used to do.

My other concern is injuries. He hasn't had knee troubles in a while, but dude has had a million hand injuries. I just don't see him aging well. If we got him in the offseason for a few expirings (we can send $5M less than we take back which helps) and our 2019 pick then cool, but I'm not sure he comes that cheap. I think he's a good buy low candidate though and would bring some good things that we don't currently have. I've admired his mental toughness playing with LBJ and being the whipping boy most of the time, but never checking out.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think he means we would have 2 guys on the floor who can't guard the perimeter and one of those 2 also doesn't protect the rim.

If they target Love at least Rudy can hang around the paint. I'm guessing they'd still try and get Rudy on the perimeter... not sure how effective/ineffective Love would be. He is awful around the rim, but moves okay on the perimeter. I think he's done fine when forced to switch. I don't think he's Kanter levels of bad.

 

[LoPo]

Love shot 42% from 3 this year....

He is shooting 33% this postseason. So far in the Finals, he is 4 of 16. Most importantly, one of the best passers I've ever seen has made it to where almost every one of Love's 3 point attempts is completely or mostly wide open. Can he shoot the 3? Yes. Is he an elite threat from the perimeter? No.

 

[LoPo]

If they target Love at least Rudy can hang around the paint. I'm guessing they'd still try and get Rudy on the perimeter... not sure how effective/ineffective Love would be. He is awful around the rim, but moves okay on the perimeter. I think he's done fine when forced to switch. I don't think he's Kanter levels of bad.

I don't think he is Ryan Anderson pathetic on defense. However, I don't see the offensive or defensive appeal of a limited, aging PF/C who makes more than $25 per year. We can do better.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think he is Ryan Anderson pathetic on defense. However, I don't see the offensive or defensive appeal of a limited, aging PF/C who makes more than $25 per year. We can do better.

I do wonder how much more he could give individually if he wasn't playing with LBJ. I wouldn't give what I think it will cost to get him... if he came cheap then sure.

He gets to the line, shoots a lot of threes, and can punish teams for going small. He's a good passer and has competed at a championship level. He'd add a lot, but would need to stay healthy. He doesn't help us off the dribble and can't get his own shot... but if he could do that he'd never get traded.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think so. His best attribute used to be his rebounding, a waste next to Gobert. His shooting is so so and he's not that athletic and can't guard the perimeter even as well as Favors does. I don't get the attraction of Jazz fans for an over rated Kevin Love.

Consider me not interested.

His rebounding would be helpful... when Rudy contests he can't always get back to the glass. The defense would also have to account for both guys on the offensive glass.

I'm not advocating we go get him, but if the cost was a 2019 1st and cap fodder I'm in. Favs is good on the perimeter for a big, but Love isn't a ton worse on the perimeter... now in the paint... that's a different story.

I do think a smart coach could make better use of him.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

He is shooting 33% this postseason. So far in the Finals, he is 4 of 16. Most importantly, one of the best passers I've ever seen has made it to where almost every one of Love's 3 point attempts is completely or mostly wide open. Can he shoot the 3? Yes. Is he an elite threat from the perimeter? No.

Please say you are joking. Do I need to explain sample size to you as well as how trades work?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And yes, playing with LBJ is nice for some players, but it's also hard for guys to get a rhythm when everything they do offensively is a spot-up jumper and playing off ball. Love would probably be better in Utah where he would be afforded more touches and playmaking opportunities.