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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (democratic socialist) wins NY primary

My comment about the mainstream media was in reference to your response in a different thread to a post of mine saying that I'm brainwashed by CNN or some such nonsense. I can find it if that's important.

The use of the military is very much connected to the budget. I would rather see a majority of the money taken from the military, while significantly reducing its size and scope, and diverted elsewhere. I'm not that concerned with public healthcare or other expanded social programs (altho I do think many would be worthwhile ideas to try), and would like the money going to the military to go to other industries that have nothing to do with American power projection. I lean toward redirecting the money to massive infrastructure projects that would push technology forward the way military industries do, while providing good jobs and high, yet sustainable, GDP growth. If we're going to keep that much money invested in defense, then we should use it to develop actually useful defensive capabilities, like improved cybersecurity (but I can think of a lot else!).

And that's a discussion I'd love to have and I appreciate the thoughts and don't necessarily disagree. Again, I am under no illusions that money can be better spent, but I don't know if right now is the right time to necessarily divert the funds when we have an extremely ageing fleet/aircraft/etc among many other things in the military. I think we need to be able to modernize our military equipment more (namely the things I mentioned), before we can scale back the funding. I do think there needs to be legitimate oversight (No bias if that's even possible!) of how the monies in all industries including the military is spent.
 
Yes, they are, I've lived it first hand thanks, but I'm not here to argue the point.

That is a management decision made by the military. Not a $ issue. The military has seen funding increase by over 200 billion in the time period you mentioned. It’s simply being spent elsewhere.
 
I haven't heard or read a coherent argument for cutting military spending yet. It's always the same old nonsense full of cherry picked stats and no context. I've heard it as far back as I can remember, always from people with no real world insight or an agenda.

It sounds cute to the masses like all good populist propaganda does. "Deficit", "Imperialism", "MIC", "waste", "big oil CONSPIRACY!!!" and my favorite "endless war" (duh, this is humanity we are talking about).
 
He just repeats what he hears on Fox. They've been talking about how underfunded the military is for years. I mean it's slightly less than the rest of the world combined! Shameful. Lower taxes, and divert all existing taxes to the military.

People deserve Trump.
We have been saying that for Tayyip and we have been stuck with for 16 years. It sucks.
 
I haven't heard or read a coherent argument for cutting military spending yet. It's always the same old nonsense full of cherry picked stats and no context. I've heard it as far back as I can remember, always from people with no real world insight or an agenda.

It sounds cute to the masses like all good populist propaganda does. "Deficit", "Imperialism", "MIC", "waste", "big oil CONSPIRACY!!!" and my favorite "endless war" (duh, this is humanity we are talking about).
You're saying that the U.S. outspending the next several nations combined is the only rational thing to do? There's no argument to be made for limiting our spending so that we can only kick everyone's *** all at once instead of being able to kick everyone and their brother's *** all at once?

My favorite way to describe U.S. military dominance is this: The biggest air force in the the world is the U.S. Air Force, the second biggest air force in the world is the U.S. Navy. I don't know, but I'd put money on the U.S. Marines being in the top 10.
 
You're saying that the U.S. outspending the next several nations combined is the only rational thing to do?

Did I offer an opinion on that either way? Pidgeonholing foreign policy like that is obviously stupid. We don't and have never done so.

Are you making an anti-unilateral argument against what many consider our current approach to internationalism? If so, why are you against Trump's NATO agenda? Unless you are an isolationist (err, neo-isolationist), any US drawdown would necessitate buildup from allies.
 
Oh, and I think Iraq-Afghanistan fatigue and Crimea prove we don't have the strength to simply "kick everyone and their brother's *** all at once". It seems plenty obvious that power and influence can only be stretched so far or thin.

Is there any evidence that we can simply mow over whoever we want? We pick our battlegrounds pretty carefully.
 
Oh, and I think Iraq-Afghanistan fatigue and Crimea prove we don't have the strength to simply "kick everyone and their brother's *** all at once". It seems plenty obvious that power and influence can only be stretched so far or thin.

Is there any evidence that we can simply mow over whoever we want? We pick our battlegrounds pretty carefully.

We can break anything we want to break. Military force is not an all-powerful thing. It is a destructive capability. We have the ability to break more of our enemies toys than they can break of ours.

When military capability is used for other purposes fatigue is certainly an issue. Just like using a screwdriver as a pry bar. It works, but you should have used a ****ing pry bar, because your screwdriver is now pretty ****ed up and the work you did looks like ***.
 
The one place I can think of where black men provably had it better than white women was that they were technically able to vote sooner - although Jim Crow and other such laws made it unfeasible until the 60's and early 70's.
 
Oh, and I think Iraq-Afghanistan fatigue and Crimea prove we don't have the strength to simply "kick everyone and their brother's *** all at once". It seems plenty obvious that power and influence can only be stretched so far or thin.

Is there any evidence that we can simply mow over whoever we want? We pick our battlegrounds pretty carefully.

I disagree. The Iarq and Afghan wars are immensely different than “everyone at once”. While in Iraq and Afghanistan we still have forces at home, in Germany, S. China Sea, Diego Garcia, Guantanamo...

Bring everyone against us and we pull everything home and the gloves would come off. We’d have millions sign up and the production means to supply and train them.

On a side tangent, @Siro mentioned cyber security and infrastructure. That’s a huge back door into the US now. It should be a priority to renew roads, bridges, ports, power plants, railways, nuclear plants, take all power and internet lines underground...

Just imagine how much 200$ billion could get done. Go state by state if you need to. Whatever.
 
Did I offer an opinion on that either way? Pidgeonholing foreign policy like that is obviously stupid. We don't and have never done so.

Are you making an anti-unilateral argument against what many consider our current approach to internationalism? If so, why are you against Trump's NATO agenda? Unless you are an isolationist (err, neo-isolationist), any US drawdown would necessitate buildup from allies.

Well, I am in support of Trump's anti-NATO agenda. It's the only thing about him that I like. Let the Europeans take care of themselves. As for "this is just how humanity is" comment; the US is the only developed country that is continuously engaged in war. Arm and train the mujahideen in Afghanistan, then engage them in a decades long war. Destabilize Iraq in the name of democracy, then spend a couple of decades fighting the Islamists that filled the void. Over and over. It's absurd.

There are no serious military threats to the US. There's no amount of money that would make war with Russia anything less than a mass extinction event, and thus out of the question. There is no justification for spending a trillion dollar on a fighter jet that doesn't work. It is ****ing absurd.
 
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The one place I can think of where black men provably had it better than white women was that they were technically able to vote sooner - although Jim Crow and other such laws made it unfeasible until the 60's and early 70's.

The very suffragette movement of the United States was also incredibly anti-black.
 
Cuz it's fun to crow. Come correct next time.

I shouldn't follow your example?

Again, I'll let the audience decide whether the confounds of senate vs. congress with respect to barriers to being elected are equal. If they are, I'm curious to hear your hypothesis on why there are currently more female senators in the United States than there have been black senators in all of American history (even when you control for population size, the discrepancy is palpable).

I don't know that they are equal, but I do know until you can remove inherited wealth (and other benefits) from the situation, you can't really compare the effects due to racism/sexism. As I'm sure you're aware, even when barriers are lowered, the historical effects persist for generations. Perhaps you have not considered that these historical effects fall harder on oppressed groups who don't have family members in the favored classes, or the degree to which this is an effect.

One example where white women face greater effects of discrimination is public-sector wages. At least one study has found black men's wages, when accounting for differences in education, etc., comparable to white men's, while women still show unexplained gaps. Now, racism does play into getting those qualifications in the first place, but you only asked for one area.

The association between average occupational earnings and within-occupation racial disadvantage reveals a much overlooked source of racial earnings inequality which constrains the opportunities available to upwardly mobile black men in the private sector. This association cannot be explained by measured individual characteristics, nor by the status, demographic composition, or skill demands characteristics of occupations. In the public sector, on the other hand, racial earnings inequality is not systematically associated with average occupational earnings, and is instead more closely tied to individual human capital and occupational placement. We consider the implications of our results and suggest directions for future research.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/99-28.pdf

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_...f-8232fe70a45c/compendium---sans-appendix.pdf


In fact, here's a challenge-- I challenge you to find social metrics/outcomes where white women fare worse than black people (or black men, whatever makes this comparison easier for you).

I doubt there is any metric where black women would be fare better than white women.

One example where white women face greater effects of discrimination than black men is public-sector wages. At least one study has found black men's wages, when accounting for differences in education, etc., comparable to white men's, while women still show unexplained gaps. Now, racism does play into getting those qualifications in the first, but even them it seems, compared to what white men earn in the public sector, white women are at 1-2% lower than black men overall.

I have not checked into military service specifically, but in that and similar testoserone-fueled environments (sports?), I would be surprised if you didn't find black men ahead of white women.

Even before I get into the mechanism and the historical mechanisms of oppression that black people have faced and continue to face,

You think I am not aware of them?


On that very page, black men with a bachelor's degree (or more) are equal in wage to white women with a bachelor's (or more), and my first inclination would be that more of the women have advanced degrees.

Or, use these interactive charts to see which strata of SES black boys vs. white girls fid themselves in
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-your-own-mobility-animation.html

OK. Black men born poor are more likely to be rich, or to stay poor.

upload_2018-7-28_14-39-33.png


The thesis of this is that race is the central social reality of the United States, pure and simple.

For a black, educated, cis-genered, heterosexual, abled man (such as the author), race is indeed the central social reality of society.

The idea is a good one-- because it is 1elieved (and I'd agree) that oppression must be fought on every axis in order to be able to defeat white supremacy, or the patriarchy, or heteronormativity.

The problem with this, is that white feminism (historically a tool of oppression against black people) weaponizes this to the extent where white women have made gains since the 60s, whereas black men and women haven't.

This would have been more correct if you said neither group has made substantial progress since the late 1970s.

The proof is in the pudding-- of all dimensions of oppression, if you look at the outcomes seen in some of the links I've posted, groups of people where which white people compose a majority (white women, white LG communities) have generally made the most progress.

The effects of wealth are sufficient to explain this.

I think I've provided enough information for you to glean that oppression rooted in race is stronger than oppression rooted in gender.

We often see strong evidence for what we believe. However, the confounding of historical wealth inequalities and the intersection of wealth on both groups makes this connection open to question.
 

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As for "this is just how humanity is" comment; the US is the only developed country that is continuously engaged in war. Arm and train the mujahideen in Afghanistan, then engage them in a decades long war. Destabilize Iraq in the name of democracy, then spend a couple of decades fighting the Islamists that filled the void. Over and over.

And how do you suppose the world would be any different with an American drawdown that no longer keeps the peace the best it can? We would leave the world with a power vacuum the likes that have never been seen.

Russian influence would undoubtedly grow and spread to our allies' borders. Chinese expansion would go hand in hand. The Middle East would align. Aside from logistics, this is where our bases are placed to wall off spread of non-democratic nations. Democracy would weaken worldwide and tension would build to another world war. We'd have already been there without our absurd military spending.

Our options are limited to NATO replacement, giving up influence, and the absurd idea of isolationism. If anyone thinks military spending is costly just wait for the pricetag of removing co-dependence economically. We have to be willing to pay the price. America is already in fits over these tiny Trump tariffs. Extend that out to what would be necessary when we can't afford to empower the enemy by trading with them. Combine at home costs with the worldwide arms race that would ensue and living standards would plummet.

I'm willing to pay the price but doubt America as a whole is.

Also, in before babe or someone tries claiming America is traditionally isolationist since the founding. Utter nonsense, even following WWI.
 
I shouldn't follow your example?

If you followed my example, you'd come correct. Speaking of which-- it's my turn now. And this is gonna be fun.

I don't know that they are equal, but I do know until you can remove inherited wealth (and other benefits) from the situation, you can't really compare the effects due to racism/sexism. As I'm sure you're aware, even when barriers are lowered, the historical effects persist for generations. Perhaps you have not considered that these historical effects fall harder on oppressed groups who don't have family members in the favored classes, or the degree to which this is an effect.

A whole lot of words that do nothing to advance the argument that women are more oppressed than black people.

One example where white women face greater effects of discrimination is public-sector wages. At least one study has found black men's wages, when accounting for differences in education, etc., comparable to white men's, while women still show unexplained gaps. Now, racism does play into getting those qualifications in the first place, but you only asked for one area.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/99-28.pdf

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_...f-8232fe70a45c/compendium---sans-appendix.pdf

I doubt there is any metric where black women would be fare better than white women.

One example where white women face greater effects of discrimination than black men is public-sector wages. At least one study has found black men's wages, when accounting for differences in education, etc., comparable to white men's, while women still show unexplained gaps. Now, racism does play into getting those qualifications in the first, but even them it seems, compared to what white men earn in the public sector, white women are at 1-2% lower than black men overall.

I have not checked into military service specifically, but in that and similar testoserone-fueled environments (sports?), I would be surprised if you didn't find black men ahead of white women.

This is where it gets fun-- it's quite curious that you've chosen two studies that haven't looked at what has happened to public sector work since the Great Recession-- and who the brunt of employee termination/unemployment has fallen on more between black men and white women.

I'll save you the work-- here's a press release and a couple articles:

http://www.washington.edu/news/2015...ctor-job-losses-during-recession-study-finds/

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/...6/Laird_washington_0250E_15998.pdf?sequence=1 (this one was some great images/graphs in Chapter 3).

My results point to a post-recession double disadvantage for black public sector workers: they are concentrated in a shrinking sector of the economy, and they are more likely than white and Hispanic public sector workers to experience job loss. These two trends are a historical break for the public sector labor market. I find that race and ethnicity gaps in public sector employment cannot be explained by differences in education, occupation, or any of the other measurable factors that are typically associated with employment.


On that very page, black men with a bachelor's degree (or more) are equal in wage to white women with a bachelor's (or more), and my first inclnation would be that more of the women have advanced degrees.

You realize that if they are "equal" (you're fibbing the numbers here), that it doesn't exactly advance your argument. You're aware of this, correct?

For a black, educated, cis-genered, heterosexual, abled man (such as the author), race is indeed the central social reality of society.

For a white dude like you, the oppression of white women seems more steep. I'll make sure to discredit all of your input in this thread based on your identity, just like you did with this author.
 
If you followed my example, you'd come correct.

You came incorrect starting with your third sentence.

A whole lot of words that do nothing to advance the argument that women are more oppressed than black people.

Very few words attributing an argument that I did not make.

"As for whether a woman suffers more from prejudice than a black person, that's at least partly situation-dependent, like any type of privilege."

"I don't know that they are equal, but I do know until you can remove inherited wealth (and other benefits) from the situation, you can't really compare the effects due to racism/sexism."

A claim of situation dependence (with which you agreed), and a disavowal of whether it can be known at all.

This is where it gets fun-- it's quite curious that you've chosen two studies that haven't looked at what has happened to public sector work since the Great Recession-- and who the brunt of employee termination/unemployment has fallen on more between black men and white women.

So, so seek to prove a generality by finding a more specific exception to a counter-example? Why bother if you can't do better than that.

You realize that if they are "equal" (you're fibbing the numbers here), that it doesn't exactly advance your argument. You're aware of this, correct?

The only numbers I offered where directly in the image, and as for equal, is that decided by mean, median, or mode?

For a white dude like you, the oppression of white women seems more steep.

If you are going to tell me my opinion, could you try to do it accurately?

I'll make sure to discredit all of your input in this thread based on your identity, just like you did with this author.

If I held the opinion you stated, you would be justified in calling my identity into question while so doing. In fact, you should take that into account when considering my opinion, regardless. On the other hand, if you did not deny being an educated, cis-genered, heterosexual, abled man, as well as black, had an effect on the author's opinion regarding the degree of the centrality of race.

Perhaps you could have fun while engaging in the position I have actually put forth?
 
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