Hayward's Woes

[JimLes]

And since I can't stop talking about Rudy because he's a godsend, here's another tidbit. Obviously, stats of any kind are contextual. For example, Rudy's on-off is gaudy, but there are players with better ones. Durant, Curry, and Draymond have ones that are twice that, but it has to do with what happens when they sit. Rudy's replacements are Derrick and occasionally Ekpe. Warriors bench is NBA's very own Bad News Bears. Of course the drop-off will be massive.

But win shares, as people have pointed out, seem to align with who the best players in the league here. So here's one more stat for tonight. Rudy had 14.3 winshares in 2017. Here are the players who've had more winshares than that in a season, while averaging under 15PPG like Rudy. It's not a long list and it's not very recent, either.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=lt&c2val=15&order_by=ws

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Seriously though, I'm blown away by that win shares stat that Jim posted.

You look at that list of guys who led the league in win shares and I would guess that the majority of them were mvp's of that season. I'm pretty certain all of them were at least top 3 player in the NBA that season.

So is Rudy a top 3 player? I think most everyone would say not even close, but that stat makes ya have to wonder. Would Rudy be the first and only player to lead the league in win shares and not be considered a top 3 guy? If so, why? Is he even considered top 10 by most? I doubt it. Most under rated player in the NBA.

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I’m on record somewhere, don’t remember, that he’s top 7 at the very least. After reading all that stuff right above this post, I think even I’m underrating him. Too bad we didn’t just draft Gobert and the freak of Greek dissent. Hell, Hayward might still be here, and I’m sure Denver would’ve still traded us Mitchell. Lololololol

 

[Ron Mexico]

Win Shares per 48 minutes has Gobert at #3 behind Giannis and Anthony Davis. But FYI Favors is #15 in the league.

Also Rudy is #2 Offensive rating. Favors is #19. Rudy is 3rd in Defensive Rating and Favors is #7. Gobert is #1 in net rating and Favors is in the top 5. In Box +/- Gobert is #1, Favors is #20.

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

 

[JimLes]

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

And this is why advanced stats are the poop. Especially the ones that basically ask "what happens to the score of the game when you're on the floor." Put Favors on a lottery team and tell him wins don't matter and to get his, and he's a 20-10 player. Easily. And people would be talking about how he's great but teammates are holding him back. Or some variant of that narrative. If you're top 25 in any advanced category, it matters zilch what your basic stats are. You win games. Simple as that.

I used to think advanced stats were bunk, especially when it was just PER and a couple of others. I've seen the light. PER is still bunk, to a large degree, though.

The season is long. If you play anything over 1500 minutes, trends will make themselves obvious.

 

[Douchebag K]

Win Shares per 48 minutes has Gobert at #3 behind Giannis and Anthony Davis. But FYI Favors is #15 in the league.

Also Rudy is #2 Offensive rating. Favors is #19. Rudy is 3rd in Defensive Rating and Favors is #7. Gobert is #1 in net rating and Favors is in the top 5. In Box +/- Gobert is #1, Favors is #20.

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

If we had a real high quality PG who could shoot i don't think having Fav and Rudy on the court would be anywhere near so detrimental

 

[jjscap]

Win Shares per 48 minutes has Gobert at #3 behind Giannis and Anthony Davis. But FYI Favors is #15 in the league.

Also Rudy is #2 Offensive rating. Favors is #19. Rudy is 3rd in Defensive Rating and Favors is #7. Gobert is #1 in net rating and Favors is in the top 5. In Box +/- Gobert is #1, Favors is #20.

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

Fav is Utah's third best player. I keep saying it around here but most people are determined to trade him away. Fav + Rudy is a good duo if Utah fields a PG that can actually shoot. I also want Fav to keep shooting threes. It takes time and his shooting form is good.

Fav is lazy at times and doesn't bring his A-game often but when he does he's pretty reliable player on both ends. He's a starter for most teams in the league. He'll again prove particularly useful in the postseason. That being said I'd not say oppose replacing him with Tobias Harris.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

He said it himself, more or less. He said he liked Stevens because he's respectful and doesn't yell at you. Implying he didn't like how mean Quin was to him.

The coach should yell at you when your not doing things the correct way. That's what coaches do. Greg Pop has no problem yelling at you when you **** up. Coach Sloan didn't either nor did Lenny Wilkins, Don Nelson or Pat Riley. They are also the top 5 coaches with the most wins in NBA history. My point is not that you have to yell at players to be a good coach, or even that Quin is going to be one of the best coaches in NBA history. Its that sometimes you have to quit being the little coddled bitch that you are and learn to take constructive criticism to get better. Brad Stevens should yell at Hayward for his embarrassing stats that don't equate to his 4 year $128 million dollar contract. If not that, then he should be yelled at like the little sourpuss he's become. There's women in the WNBA that are more of a man than he is. Grow a pair already Hayward.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

I feel bad for him, the injury was horrific and no one deserves that said.

That said, I feel bad about the injury because he would've been exposed as mentally weak and a product of the entire system
being built around him to succeed, and the injury obscures that.

That also said, if he gets back to 80%, I'd strongly consider bringing him back because he's still perfect for what
we need, more than Harris, Porter, and a lot of guys talked about. He wouldn't feel the pressure of being the alpha dog
with Rudy and Donovan around. I forgive and forget pretty easily, and if he performed well most of us would too. Plus come on,
what a storyline.

I love his injury. It's my favorite injury in the history of broken bones. When everybody was disgusted by it, I was laughing. I still replay his injury almost every night before bed because it helps me sleep better. I wasn't even a believer of God, but when I saw his ankle break in half, I knew there was something out there more powerful than myself. I became an instant believer. That was Gods work in his finest moment. I just wish I could've been there, in the moment, ready to celebrate. I think October 17th should be a recognized holiday in America. And I also hope that he continues to fail miserably. If he comes back to the Jazz I would renounce my 30 years of being a Jazz fan because he goes against everything that the Jazz were, are now and ever will be. If I was in a room with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Gordon Hayward and I had one gun and two bullets, I would shoot Gordon Hayward twice.

 

[Douchebag K]

I love his injury. It's my favorite injury in the history of broken bones. When everybody was disgusted by it, I was laughing. I still replay his injury almost every night before bed because it helps me sleep better. I wasn't even a believer of God, but when I saw his ankle break in half, I knew there was something out there more powerful than myself. I became an instant believer. That was Gods work in his finest moment. I just wish I could've been there, in the moment, ready to celebrate. I think October 17th should be a recognized holiday in America. And I also hope that he continues to fail miserably. If he comes back to the Jazz I would renounce my 30 years of being a Jazz fan because he goes against everything that the Jazz were, are now and ever will be. If I was in a room with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Gordon Hayward and I had one gun and two bullets, I would shoot Gordon Hayward twice.

You seem nice

 

[Kyoto]

I love his injury. It's my favorite injury in the history of broken bones. When everybody was disgusted by it, I was laughing. I still replay his injury almost every night before bed because it helps me sleep better. I wasn't even a believer of God, but when I saw his ankle break in half, I knew there was something out there more powerful than myself. I became an instant believer. That was Gods work in his finest moment. I just wish I could've been there, in the moment, ready to celebrate. I think October 17th should be a recognized holiday in America. And I also hope that he continues to fail miserably. If he comes back to the Jazz I would renounce my 30 years of being a Jazz fan because he goes against everything that the Jazz were, are now and ever will be. If I was in a room with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Gordon Hayward and I had one gun and two bullets, I would shoot Gordon Hayward twice.

I thought I knew you from somewhere! You were that guy in the crowd covering 1 eye and mock crying at Derek Fisher when he came back as a Laker!

 

[One Brow]

There's people in less prestigious leagues that are more of an adult than he is. Grow up already Hayward.

Fixed it for you.

 

[framer]

They couldnt predict he was gonna break his leg. If he was healthy of course hes worth 2 1sts.

Not at 30 million plus he isn't. I mean the question was "Is Hayward worth a max contract?" Even the people that said "yes!" couldn't actually believe he would EXCEED that contract. The point of max contracts is you need that guy to be a deal even getting paid like royalty. Like what we get from Gobert, quite frankly. Paying a max to a guy slotted to maybe being the second, most likely the third option on a championship team is bonkers. It is OK to pay a guy exactly what he is worth on the lower end. At the higher end, it will kill you.

People at the time were making the argument that Hayward only had one "star" type year on a team tailored for him to succeed. He wasn't even the best player on that team. To think that Hayward would underperform severely, injury or no, wasn't some sort of unknowable outcome. Many predicted it and they were correct.

 

[fishonjazz]

Not at 30 million plus he isn't. I mean the question was "Is Hayward worth a max contract?" Even the people that said "yes!" couldn't actually believe he would EXCEED that contract. The point of max contracts is you need that guy to be a deal even getting paid like royalty. Like what we get from Gobert, quite frankly. Paying a max to a guy slotted to maybe being the second, most likely the third option on a championship team is bonkers. It is OK to pay a guy exactly what he is worth on the lower end. At the higher end, it will kill you.

People at the time were making the argument that Hayward only had one "star" type year on a team tailored for him to succeed. He wasn't even the best player on that team. To think that Hayward would underperform severely, injury or no, wasn't some sort of unknowable outcome. Many predicted it and they were correct.

This

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[JAZZGASM]

This

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Ultimately, I like Hayward and I feel bad he got hurt and I wish the best for Hayward and Robyn (ilJazz).

I thought Hayward did the Jazz dirty the way he left, but not for leaving. But like many young people, he makes mistakes, and I'm not going to hold anything against the guy and I won't boo him. In some ways I wish he was still in Utah, but he didn't have to take much of a pay cut to go to Boston and he wanted to go Brokeback Mountain with his buddy Brad. (and as he had very good numbers being the #1 option in Utah, he was going to get overpaid either way, the injury just exacerbated it). I think the only way he would have stayed in Utah is if he made All-NBA (I'm sure he was very close to making it) and getting the Designated Player Veteran Extension. That would have resulted in Utah making a mistakenly huge overpay, about $180MM over 5, and they would have done it. It may have even resulted in Hill still being here and getting overpaid. So based on the circumstances, while I'd love to have a healthy Hayward on the Jazz, from a long-term salary cap standpoint, I think the Jazz are better off without him, even though I'd love to see what the team could do with him, although I think I prefer watching Ingles and Mitchell at this point. Unfortunately for Hayward, even without the injury, I don't think it would have ever been said he was better off without the Jazz. Had he re-signed with the Jazz, I think he would still be a very big focus of the offense, which would allow him to get paid even more on his next contract. Can't imagine the amount of money he is going to miss out on during his career by going to Boston. I truly hope he recovers mentally to be able to play well again.

Unlike many here, I have been a fan of Boston under Stevens. I really think he is an amazing coach. They have had some discord this year (and Hayward is part of it) but overall, I love the sets they run on both sides of the ball. I liked them more before they moved half their roster for Hayward. And I do think Ainge is a douche canoe.

 

[framer]

Ultimately I don't really feel bad for someone only making 100 million instead of 200 million. So there is that. Hayward doesn't strike me as someone that will be broke 10 years out of the league.

I hate Hayward less than I hate the Boston organization. I like them and their fans less than the Lakers at this point. I
Wish them nothing but sorrow (not personally of course.)

I also feel like Stevens would be exposed quite a bit more if he coached in the Western Conference.

 

[David Stern]

I like them and their fans less than the Lakers at this point. I
Wish them nothing but sorrow (not personally of course.)

I agree with you on this. The true Lakers fans that I know hate that LeBron went there and are basically boycotting the team until he leaves.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

I agree with you on this. The true Lakers fans that I know hate that LeBron went there and are basically boycotting the team until he leaves.

LMAO, you mean the ****ing dumbass Kobe stans?

 

[ijazz]

I love his injury. It's my favorite injury in the history of broken bones. When everybody was disgusted by it, I was laughing. I still replay his injury almost every night before bed because it helps me sleep better. I wasn't even a believer of God, but when I saw his ankle break in half, I knew there was something out there more powerful than myself. I became an instant believer. That was Gods work in his finest moment. I just wish I could've been there, in the moment, ready to celebrate. I think October 17th should be a recognized holiday in America. And I also hope that he continues to fail miserably. If he comes back to the Jazz I would renounce my 30 years of being a Jazz fan because he goes against everything that the Jazz were, are now and ever will be. If I was in a room with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Gordon Hayward and I had one gun and two bullets, I would shoot Gordon Hayward twice.

And you wonder why Jazz can't get free agents. He busted his *** for the Jazz and his only fault is leaving when he was able to do so? You are sad.....

 

[Deleted member 848]

I love his injury. It's my favorite injury in the history of broken bones. When everybody was disgusted by it, I was laughing. I still replay his injury almost every night before bed because it helps me sleep better. I wasn't even a believer of God, but when I saw his ankle break in half, I knew there was something out there more powerful than myself. I became an instant believer. That was Gods work in his finest moment. I just wish I could've been there, in the moment, ready to celebrate. I think October 17th should be a recognized holiday in America. And I also hope that he continues to fail miserably. If he comes back to the Jazz I would renounce my 30 years of being a Jazz fan because he goes against everything that the Jazz were, are now and ever will be. If I was in a room with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Gordon Hayward and I had one gun and two bullets, I would shoot Gordon Hayward twice.

JimLes's alt. dying.

 

[Deleted member 848]

And you wonder why Jazz can't get free agents. He busted his *** for the Jazz and his only fault is leaving when he was able to do so? You are sad.....

lmao gtfo and go cheer ur G-League fav to a another 2/7 FG 1-3 FT statline, chump