The Irrational Covid

[babe]

I agree with the analysis of the OANN link. I don't go to that source for anything. There have always been a portion of the conservatives who are just too stupid for words...... well some portions of every political faction, let's say.

I agree that masks can be effective, in any design or material, to some extent, and should be worn in all close encounters human to human or in closed spaces with poor HVAC design. But they fail because we fail to properly clean them, replace them, dispose of them in a timely manner. Coming home from a spreader event, and taking them off and putting them on the kitchen table, we go wash our hands and face and sit down to eat. and transfer to load of virus from the table to our face in unthinking comfort. That sort of thing. And then the mandates that require us to stay indoors and not walk alone around the block in the sunshine at all, or use a mask to do so, puts us in a sort of trance of unthinking habit that leads to exposures we could avoid if we were thoughtful about the circumstances.

Still no way to save us from our own stupidity at times.

I agree with the analysis of the OANN link. I don't go to that source for anything. There have always been a portion of the conservatives who are just too stupid for words...... well some portions of every political faction, let's say.

I agree that masks can be effective, in any design or material, to some extent, and should be worn in all close encounters human to human or in closed spaces with poor HVAC design. But they fail because we fail to properly clean them, replace them, dispose of them in a timely manner. Coming home from a spreader event, and taking them off and putting them on the kitchen table, we go wash our hands and face and sit down to eat. and transfer to load of virus from the table to our face in unthinking comfort. That sort of thing. And then the mandates that require us to stay indoors and not walk alone around the block in the sunshine at all, or use a mask to do so, puts us in a sort of trance of unthinking habit that leads to exposures we could avoid if we were thoughtful about the circumstances.

Still no way to save us from our own stupidity at times.

The human condition will always involve human inconsistency, human weakness, human corruption, human ignorance, human weariness, human bias, human lunacy, human credulity....... well, an infinity of imperfections or deplorable characters.

But it's not just republicans who are human.

Speaking of HVAC systems, Mark Levin has been exploding against teachers' unions' demands for HVAC fixes. He apparently thinks it's not an issue. But the worst part of it is the unions' and school managers' misunderstanding of the problem, and the engineers with their delight in replacing equipment that doesn't need to be replaced. To increase air flows or change directions of air flows.

The systems need the installation, in-line...... in some segment of the ductworks, electrostatic filters that will destroy the virus as it passes, and remove the particles from the air. And produce a light ozone presence, something like the smell of a thunderstorm. Ozone actually has no threshold biologically, it acts completely and exhaustively on first contact with any biological surface. Like chlorine in the swimming pool, we tolerate low levels per OSHA specifications because we have reserves of unsaturated oils and biological molecules, and will not be killed by a light concentration for several hours a day. We do need to eat well to keep up our nutrition, that's all. But the virus is killed by those low concentrations, absolutely and quantitatively, totally. With that kind of air, the masks are actually not even needed unless we are say kissing someone with the virus.

This kind of installation in the HVAC is a few thousand dollars for even large buildings, compared to hundreds of thousands of dollars to totally redesign and reinstall the systems.

So when it comes to stupid, the teachers and the engineers are far mare stupid than Mark Levin.

 

[babe]

Why would you link to that garbage article when you could take 2 seconds and click on the actual study with good unbiased information in it? That poor news/opinion article does not represent the study well at all. If this is the type of "news" you read I would highly suggest finding a better source, there are many.

Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing ...

This report describes changes in COVID-19 case and death growth ...

www.cdc.gov

China only did a home shut you in lockdown in Wuhan where it was obviously really bad. I have been in China the entire time and have not had any home lockdown quarantine, nor have the vast majority of people. The most extreme was one city I was in closed indoor dining and gatherings, although a lot of cities never did that like Beijing, they only suggested it. When I moved back to Beijing they asked me to do a quarantine at home. I was allowed to walk around outside in the block the complex was in and order food and other things. After that I was given a pass that got me into the apartment complex and near by restaurants and businesses. The reason China stopped the spread is because they closed the borders and travel within China where outbreaks were. I would have to do a 3 week quarantine if I left the country and returned. If I went to a high risk area in China then I would have to do a hotel quarantine for 2 weeks. People also wore their masks here. They also did very good contact tracing. Businesses were asked to track their customers. When I went to a restaurant the asked for my phone number and name in case anyone there had an outbreak, those people who were in close contact were asked to do a hotel quarantine for 2 weeks and take multiple tests. Ive said it before, China handled the outbreak very poorly early by not releasing information and actively suppressing information about the outbreak in Wuhan. A lot of that was local leaders trying to save face, but I am sure the central government wanted to know more before telling people, which is wrong. But since then they have done the correct steps to stop the spread that more countries should and many have.

I think like the studies show, masks definitely help but they aren't going to stop the outbreak. They are very cheap and very easy to wear with no bad effects, so why not wear one in public indoors near people? But the biggest factor is restricted travel and quarantine people who have. To date USA has not closed the border except to China, which is pretty sad since that is based on risk prevention but politics. Also no USA citizens were ever required to quarantine on return from high risks areas, that was a bad decision and probably still is. Look at what Australia has done.

This is perhaps the best post yet in this thread. I absolutely applaud you for this contribution. It is informative and in all respects well-founded.

 

[Jazz4ever]

COVID-19 ARCHIVED WEBPAGE

This historical page is not up to date. Find the latest on COVID-19.

www.cdc.gov

I trust the CDC to say what it means, rather than rely on the highly biased, cherry-picked results of OANN.

What's unbelievable is the notion that two diseases are spread the same way, yet one has been severely hampered and the other untouched by the same preventative measures. Try to think more critically.

I only linked it from OANN because you sure as hell wouldn't see that study on any liberal owned platform. Back to masks though, there could be a realm of possibilities here. To assume masks are the main reason for the historic low flu just doesn't add up. Some things we have to ask.

1. Does Covid overtake and kill the flu if both present at the same time? Covid was rampant before the flu season got under way, so seems possible.
2. Flu cases are being called Covid if there are even a few Covid antibodies found.

 

[The Thriller]

Wow. What an amazing thread.

 

[babe]

Some are saying we face a new wave from the British variant that's spreading now. Our "experts" believe our vaccines work on this variant.

The EU is worried about some post-vaccination blood clotting issues. I'd like to discuss those concerns.

One of the first comments from the experts is that the vaccine is safe and likely will not be the direct cause of the clots, because it is an mRNA prep and does not contain the virus itself. This statement is based on their logic and understanding that the virus causes bleeding lesions and then spreads to other organs where it also causes bleeding lesions perhaps. So they declare the vaccine "innocent".

This declaration is premature. Another issue if it is getting not into immune active cells (white cells) but red cells and platelets as well, where it may cause cell lysis/depletion of O2 carrying and blood clotting deficiencies. So whether the vaccine is causing bleeding or not, the vaccine is capable of having a deficiency in clotting. We all have minor bleeding events going on variously sometimes/somewhere for whatever reasons, and slow blood clotting can produce the occasional incident of a larger bleed and clot formation like what is being reported. The incidence of this appears to be fairly rare. It is good to know the experts are seeing things like this and thinking about them.

But I think it's unlikely to be an adequate reason not to get the shot.

There are more things to be concerned about, though, most of which are still theoretical long-term concerns. Again, probably no good reason not to get the shot which can be deadly in even 1% of patients.

My largest concern is the possibility of a variant that our vaccines won't stop. We need to be doing due diligence research on every variant we see.

 

[Avery]

Some are saying we face a new wave from the British variant that's spreading now. Our "experts" believe our vaccines work on this variant.

The EU is worried about some post-vaccination blood clotting issues. I'd like to discuss those concerns.

One of the first comments from the experts is that the vaccine is safe and likely will not be the direct cause of the clots, because it is an mRNA prep and does not contain the virus itself. This statement is based on their logic and understanding that the virus causes bleeding lesions and then spreads to other organs where it also causes bleeding lesions perhaps. So they declare the vaccine "innocent".

This declaration is premature. Another issue if it is getting not into immune active cells (white cells) but red cells and platelets as well, where it may cause cell lysis/depletion of O2 carrying and blood clotting deficiencies. So whether the vaccine is causing bleeding or not, the vaccine is capable of having a deficiency in clotting. We all have minor bleeding events going on variously sometimes/somewhere for whatever reasons, and slow blood clotting can produce the occasional incident of a larger bleed and clot formation like what is being reported. The incidence of this appears to be fairly rare. It is good to know the experts are seeing things like this and thinking about them.

But I think it's unlikely to be an adequate reason not to get the shot.

There are more things to be concerned about, though, most of which are still theoretical long-term concerns. Again, probably no good reason not to get the shot which can be deadly in even 1% of patients.

My largest concern is the possibility of a variant that our vaccines won't stop. We need to be doing due diligence research on every variant we see.

One of the biggest misnomers around is that coronavirus is something new when it's not. Though we discovered it nearly a century ago, it's likely that it's been around for ages in various incarnations from different animals.

Eventually, these variants will diminish the ability of the current vaccines and render them moot as they mutate - that's the same with any strain of influenza. The game never ends, the board simply is reshuffled.

Getting the vaccine isn't immortal armor, but it will dig us out of this hole so we can go back to the lives we've led with hopefully a bit more wisdom for the next illness that threatens our way of life when we play this unending game again.

That's more than enough reason for me to deal with a sore arm for 24 hours.

 

[One Brow]

I only linked it from OANN because you sure as hell wouldn't see that study on any liberal owned platform.

Nor any platform that care about how many people would die, truth, science, or good public policy. How fortunate for you OANN disregards these burdens.

Back to masks though, there could be a realm of possibilities here. To assume masks are the main reason for the historic low flu just doesn't add up. Some things we have to ask.

1. Does Covid overtake and kill the flu if both present at the same time? Covid was rampant before the flu season got under way, so seems possible.
2. Flu cases are being called Covid if there are even a few Covid antibodies found.

1. Viruses don't do to war with other viruses.
2. There were more covid19 cases called flu rather than the other way around for a long time.
3. If you don't think masking and similar protocols are effective, there is no reason to assume that a person with covid19 is more likely to have a flu than than a person without, and vice-versa. Your question's relevance depend on undercutting the point you are trying to make.

 

[One Brow]

This declaration is premature.

Describe a plausible biological mechanism for the coivd19 vaccine to be causing clotting issues, please.

Another issue if it is getting not into immune active cells (white cells) but red cells and platelets as well, where it may cause cell lysis/depletion of O2 carrying and blood clotting deficiencies.

Since the variant is relying on cellular machinery not present in red blood cells nor platelets, this seems extremely implausible.

 

[MVP]

One of the first comments from the experts is that the vaccine is safe and likely will not be the direct cause of the clots, because it is an mRNA prep and does not contain the virus itself.

AstraZeneca vaccine is not mRNA vaccine so this statement just shows how uneducated and unqualified you are to discuss this issue. Neither Pfizer nor Moderna vaccines ( which are mRNA vaccines ) are suspended or being investigated for clots.

 

[Avery]

As a public service, anyone in Utah (sans children) is eligible to receive the vaccine beginning March 24th.

Appointments will likely be challenging, but if you're open to where you get the vaccine, you'll be able to get in sooner.

Pro Tip: if you really want the J&J vaccine due to convenience, TOSH in Murray is doing these.

 

[babe]

Nor any platform that care about how many people would die, truth, science, or good public policy. How fortunate for you OANN disregards these burdens.


1. Viruses don't do to war with other viruses.
2. There were more covid19 cases called flu rather than the other way around for a long time.
3. If you don't think masking and similar protocols are effective, there is no reason to assume that a person with covid19 is more likely to have a flu than than a person without, and vice-versa. Your question's relevance depend on undercutting the point you are trying to make.

I would like to refine your assertions above to some degree, not that I don't see the sense in what you say, but to subject it to some further thought.

Viruses are not known to seek and destroy specifric competing viruses, so yes they "don't go to war" with that programming or purpose, that we know of yet. But some prevail over others when starting out together, and some preclude the opportunities for others by upping the immune system or changing the environment required to initiate an infection, or to let it develop.

I was looking at the flu states from the CDC last February (2019) and it was a pretty bad flu season. All the variant flus were being reported on then.

Within two months, that flu season took a sensational dive to zero and has not come back in the stats. I don't know why.

2. Your are aqbsolutely right here. There are some reports attempting to establish American Covid-19 cases as early as Aug 2019. I'll have to look up the links, this is radio news.

3. mask wearing has been pretty common in Asia for years during flu concerns. We do not have data to compare mask effectiveness between Covid and flu.

And last, non-official or counter-cultural, or non-scientific or unauthorized sites on every subject are essential to a free press. The idea that people will read them and believe them is not supported by statistical studies. People generally are believing crap before they begin reading, or even know how to read. Such sites, like sources such as the Bible, are essential baselines which any responsible writer or media retailer could use as a starter for getting interest, then leading the reader/crap believer into something that is supported by say research or good communal values.

 

[babe]

AstraZeneca vaccine is not mRNA vaccine so this statement just shows how uneducated and unqualified you are to discuss this issue. Neither Pfizer nor Moderna vaccines ( which are mRNA vaccines ) are suspended or being investigated for clots.

I presumed, on the prejudice of it being the first out, that it must be. Yes, you are right. I did not even look it up before I babbled.

Turns out this thread is a great venue for educating babes.

But I will check out your assertion when I have a minute.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Nor any platform that care about how many people would die, truth, science, or good public policy. How fortunate for you OANN disregards these burdens.


1. Viruses don't do to war with other viruses.
2. There were more covid19 cases called flu rather than the other way around for a long time.
3. If you don't think masking and similar protocols are effective, there is no reason to assume that a person with covid19 is more likely to have a flu than than a person without, and vice-versa. Your question's relevance depend on undercutting the point you are trying to make.

I rarely even visit the site to be honest. Either way, its a fact based article with no spin. The fact you can't read it without being triggered is not a good sign.

 

[One Brow]

I rarely even visit the site to be honest. Either way, its a fact based article with no spin. The fact you can't read it without being triggered is not a good sign.

Well, gosh, since you put it that way, I decided to read the article after all, mostly to see how good you were at determining " fact based article with no spin".

The first paragraph of the article:

The CDC has admitted face masks do little to prevent the spread of COVID-19 amid mounting pressure to lift mask mandates across the U.S. In a new study, the CDC found face masks had a negligible impact on coronavirus numbers that didn’t exceed statistical margins of error.

Now, the article does not link to any CDC guidance, rather it links to a scientific study, which is a very different thing. The study did not look at the wearing of masks, but part of the effort looked at the effect of mask mandates, which are related but distinct things. The study also focused how how the re-opening of restaurants contributed significantly to rises in covid19 levels, which your "no spin" study left out. So, I would say you completely failed to to dete4ct the massive amount of spin OANN put into just the first paragraph of the article. Shall I continue?

By the way, here is the CDC summary of the linked report, near the top of the linked page, saying what the CDC actually thinks:

Summary​

What is already known about this topic?

Universal masking and avoiding nonessential indoor spaces are recommended to mitigate the spread of COVID-19.

What is added by this report?

Mandating masks was associated with a decrease in daily COVID-19 case and death growth rates within 20 days of implementation. Allowing on-premises restaurant dining was associated with an increase in daily COVID-19 case growth rates 41–100 days after implementation and an increase in daily death growth rates 61–100 days after implementation.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Mask mandates and restricting any on-premises dining at restaurants can help limit community transmission of COVID-19 and reduce case and death growth rates. These findings can inform public policies to reduce community spread of COVID-19.

Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing ...

This report describes changes in COVID-19 case and death growth ...

www.cdc.gov

I am hoping we can put this particular sub-topic to bed.

 

[babe]

Well, gosh, since you put it that way, I decided to read the article after all, mostly to see how good you were at determining " fact based article with no spin".

The first paragraph of the article:


Now, the article does not link to any CDC guidance, rather it links to a scientific study, which is a very different thing. The study did not look at the wearing of masks, but part of the effort looked at the effect of mask mandates, which are related but distinct things. The study also focused how how the re-opening of restaurants contributed significantly to rises in covid19 levels, which your "no spin" study left out. So, I would say you completely failed to to dete4ct the massive amount of spin OANN put into just the first paragraph of the article. Shall I continue?

By the way, here is the CDC summary of the linked report, near the top of the linked page, saying what the CDC actually thinks:

Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing ...

This report describes changes in COVID-19 case and death growth ...

www.cdc.gov

I am hoping we can put this particular sub-topic to bed.

My impression, without having done much "study" of the alternative media sites like OANN and several others---Epoch Times, Newsmax, about all I can recall, but there are several others---- is that they play to a theoretical market of people they see as burned out by the mainstream media. There is a decided effort to take the "high ground" by pushing every possible argument to the max.

Which, imo, is also happening on the progressive side sites in an extreme fashion.

Everywhere I look, I see unbelievable nonsense. Where can we really get the "news" without the spin?

I just don't really believe any of it.

My own "opinions": annoy a lot of people because I try to ruffle the comfortable assumptions, but I'm in no position to aggregate unbiased and purely factual material. It takes a huge effort, tons of time.

And...... then there's the wholly-owned dedicated political agenda machines..... often just making crap up. I'm embarrassed to resemble that.

Part of the "fun" in calling this thread "Irrational" is a reflection on the level of intellect we have as a society achieved on this issue. Nobody is believing anything, really, nobody is escaping earth gravity on this issue if we equate earth gravity with human conventions/'norms, and positing that those are not true science.

A man's reach must exceed his grasp. Once in a while, for a fleeting moment, we touch the ideals of science but have not ever really got a firm grip.

 

[babe]

Describe a plausible biological mechanism for the coivd19 vaccine to be causing clotting issues, please.


Since the variant is relying on cellular machinery not present in red blood cells nor platelets, this seems extremely implausible.

I'm sorta winging it here, like Red has described.

I did work for a research professor one summer who wanted me to isolate a blood clotting factor from platelets. I gathered donated blood, separated the platelets and lyzed them. The protein I was was looking for was membrane-bound. He had funding for a year of work to do that, I completed it in two months.

I still need to read up on the vaccines in question. In general, vaccines in the past have been, as you know, live viruses perhaps attenuated(modified to make them impotant as actual transmitters of the disease) or viral fragments themselves incapable of replication somehow. Antigens still present which the patient's immune system develops immunity from.

My impression of mRNA methods is that a specific viral protein's mRNA base is made up in a microsomal-like or artificial carrier structure like a lipid bubble that can be absorbed through a cell membrane. The target cell might be any host cellular type but I presume it's a lymphocyte. I don't know how "accurate" the mRNA capsid is. I wonder if it can get into a platelet or a red-blood cell, and if it can cause such a cell to lyze (break open).

As I understand it, mRNA even our own produced mRNA all have some kind of an active "life" span or half-life if you will, and will not persist forever. You can get them into a cell and make lots of the antigen protein, and the cell breaks open and releases the antigen (a protein not a live virus), and the immune system will then build a defense against that antigen.

Some patients may have an abnormality somehow that is triggered by this vaccine and results in a clot somewhere. I think the most concerning areas are in the lungs and heart and brain. Viruses general work on some manner of intrusion into, and breakout from, some cell. Generally, clotting factors are triggered by some material present in such events. Arterial walls, vein wall, have stuff that causes such a reaction in spades, but there may be some level of it in any cell wall or membrane.

Something is broken messages, chemotaxis to the site, some kind of chemical band aid secreted.

One of the panic-press issues is a lot of people think mRNA or mDNA becomes incorporated somehow into the human genes of the patient, and will create a non-human or deranged human gene. Considering the amount of gene expression in microsomes or in the nucleus of RNA, and the constant rates of turnover, I sorta don't buy that panic.
But then what do I know, really.

Are RBC and white cells really lacking in microsomes(the machinery you mention above?)

 

[babe]

A whole shipload of research I know nothing about....

Frontiers | Red Blood Cells as Potential Repositories of MicroRNAs in the Circulatory System

<p>The amount of erythrocyte-derived microRNAs (miRNAs) represents the majority of miRNAs expressed in whole blood. miR-451, miR-144, and miR-486, which are ...

www.frontiersin.org

Looks like a promising field for a lot more research.

The answer to the question above is YES. Very YES. We have hardly begun to understand blood cells generally.

Yes, the RBC and lymphocytes are players in micro (relatively small) RNA, which appear to have many and important roles in health and pathology of disease and disorders.

In general, mRNA (messenger RNA generally from mitochrondria (extranuclear, outside the nucleus) are protein manufacturing templates. The micro species discussed here are probably shorter. amd may act as signals/modifiers directly or through short protein products.

Unless there is something that especially precludes the vaccine delivery vehicle from tagging an erythrocyte, we should figure it probably does happen, and an RBC will take in the mRNA template and produce an antigen like other cells. Lysis is the usual end, the way the antigen gets out into the system.

 

[One Brow]

Are RBC and white cells really lacking in microsomes(the machinery you mention above?)

I referred to red blood cells and platelets, not white blood cells, and I believe the structure you meant to say is a ribosome, which is the structure that converts RNA into proteins, IIRC.

Most red blood cells don't have ribosomes. Lacking a nucleus and a need to construct proteins, they don't need them.

Platelets do not have nuclei, but do have ribosomes, and can generate a much smaller range of proteins. Perhaps the virus can adversely affect them, but I don't think they can generate more viruses, and the vaccine doesn't doesn't have enough material to affect that many platelets to that degree.

 

[babe]

For any serious student of vaccines, here's a readable article that appears to be up there in respectability and facts:

AAAS

blogs.sciencemag.org

So I learned that MVP is right, and that I was right, too. Well borderline maybe. MVP might actually be in this field of study. There are two strategies that come together at the point of using monoclonal mRNA to produce the spike protein of Covid19. The spike is about all any contacting cell will likely "see" and recognize as an antigen and create antibodies to.

The AstraZeneca and J&J use another virus as the carrier of the gene, using gene-splicing to put the spike-coding DNA into patient cell where the patient makes the mRNA. Some others also. The Pfizer and Moderna don't use the virus but create another carrier into the cell, and I think emplace mRNA directly. Neither uses a Covid19 virus either dead or attenuated to get the spike synthesis going in the patient.

 

[babe]

I referred to red blood cells and platelets, not white blood cells, and I believe the structure you meant to say is a ribosome, which is the structure that converts RNA into proteins, IIRC.

Most red blood cells don't have ribosomes. Lacking a nucleus and a need to construct proteins, they don't need them.

Platelets do not have nuclei, but do have ribosomes, and can generate a much smaller range of proteins. Perhaps the virus can adversely affect them, but I don't think they can generate more viruses, and the vaccine doesn't doesn't have enough material to affect that many platelets to that degree.

Let's correct me here. yes, microsomes are cell lysis debris, with remnants of the endoplasmic reticulum, liposomes less complicated are lipid bubbles, which can be carriers of other stuff sometimes, I think. ribosomes are the extranuclear factories where RNA stuff is made in spades. R as in ribose Ribonucleic acids ,RNA, outside the nucleus.. and RNA is the template for proteins generally. microsomes are what you find in the lab when you break cells. More than just lipids or oils, they generally have other stuff too.

I think the article I linked above states that although there is no nucleus there are ribosomes. I still have not processed that article. This is an exercise for me. I will revisit that article and do some more thinking and some more searching.

Amazing article. I think it goes into how RBC miRNAs might be involved in cancer, and could be tested for as a marker for some cancers. Literally hundreds of miRNA species.

It looks like your skepticism regarding my idea of blood clotting coming from vaccine acting in the RBC and platelets is more sensible.