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Max Porter said:
- this isn’t about generalizing an entire city or base.
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One has to generalize. There are over 10 million people in the New York City area. I can not come here and give 10 million complete individual character profiles of our citizens, so we generalize. We have to.

NY Knick fans are the most knowledgeable, decent, well dressed, wealthy, well-behaved fans in any sport. Once again, the fans attending these covid-era games are not our fan base.
 
Three points:

1) in this case politics must be brought into our discussion of uncivil behavior. When the Prez calls another candidate's wife "ugly;" when the Prez is on tape speaking of grabbing women by the *****; when the Prez mocks a handicapped man ("You should have seen him!" Prez then spastically shakes his arms); and obviously I could go on....then is it any wonder that uncivil behavior is deemed acceptable by fans of that Prez or our youth?

2) blame must also be placed on the ESPN's of the world. Who is shown on ESPN Sports center highlights - me a well dressed man cheering for my team or the goof ball Raider fan with the face paint and dark mascara and spiked club? Why are bat flips, football players preening in the end zone, and in your face taunts after a slam dunk shown more on ESPN than an athlete bending over to help a competitor up? Why are absolute douche bags like Ray Lewis, A-Roid, Matt Barnes hired by the likes of ESPN? The answer is simple: uncivility sells. ESPN has made sure of that.

3) obviously blame must be placed on the very athletes theses fans taunt. When LeBum makes a public speech loaded with the F-word; when David Ortiz makes his retirement speech loaded with the F-word (compare Ortiz's going away speech to Lou Gehrig's); when Megan Rapinoe at the ticker tape parade for the women's soccer team gets up on stage and utters "Mother f******" in her speech....well, is it a stretch for a fan to yell the F-word to Trae Young or any other athlete?
 
Jazzman12 said:
I hate to be “that guy”, but the church is still doing as much harm as it is good when it comes to spreading hate and fear. Look at the recent church failings on gay issues such as the Prop 8 fiasco in California, followed up by inflicting undue pain and distress on Mormon children that come from same sex households.
We could also get into the black priesthood issues that still looms large in church history. Just because the priesthood decision was reversed in 1978 doesn’t mean a switch was magically flipped and everything was suddenly A-Ok for black people living in Utah. I agree with many in here that the racism taking place in Utah is born out of ignorance- quick side note, I didn’t attend school with a black person until Jr. High. That in and of itself set me up for a certain amount of ignorance and blind spots regardless of whether or not I could see that at the time. The fact still remains: Ignorance of the racial issues that have haunted this country since it’s inception is still racism.

I come from a family that is half LDS, half non-LDS and some of the finest people in my life, whom I love dearly are devout members. I really try to give the church the benefit of the doubt whenever I can but I really do feel that the above criticisms are fair and accurate. I don’t think anybody expects the church to be perfect but when you make a post about the church taking a “Very Forward Stance” when it comes to equality, well there’s probably not a very nice way to say it, but that’s just BS. You can’t pick and choose what groups of people you’re going to take a forward stance on while continuing to discriminate against others and then turn around and pat yourself on the back for being progressive.
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This is a great post.

Just wanted to add, The “church” also sends conflicting messages. While many people celebrated Oaks bringing up BLM at BYU last year, he also brought up protests resulting in damage to private property. Those who support the status quo couldn’t have been any happier. While I don’t condone the destruction of private property, the fight for racial equality and social justice are not the same. Insurance can rebuild buildings but insurance cannot rebuild the lives that have been destroyed by racist attitudes, policies, and practices. The message he was (attempting) to convey was an anti-racist message. But it became conflicted when he brought up private property damage. Another example was Oaks April conference talk about the constitution which was celebrated by Trumpers and progressives alike. I think it does the church and society a disservice being so vague and cryptic in messaging. His “both sidesing” BLM just cripples any chance to address the issue and further divides church membership.

Imagine if I got up during a sacrament meeting commemorating Joseph Smith and gave a talk about him being a martyr but also attacking him for destroying the printing press or raping 14 year old girls. Would members think I was sending out conflicting messages? Am I doing the church or society a solid if I’m cryptic in my messaging about “past mistakes” made by the church?

Furthermore, it’s not like a light switch was pressed in 1978. It wasn’t like racist attitudes were eliminated because the church sent out a message saying that the priesthood ban had been lifted. In my experience, Utah Mormons are very racist, they’re just very subtle about it. They won’t say the N word but bring up Ryan Smith’s scholarship program. I dare you. Bring it up on Facebook. The responses you get will be eye-opening.
 
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The Thriller said:
This is a great post.

Just wanted to add, The “church” also sends conflicting messages. While many people celebrated Oaks bringing up BLM at BYU last year, he also brought up protests resulting in damage to private property. Those who support the status quo couldn’t have been any happier. While I don’t condone the destruction of private property, the fight for racial equality and social justice are not the same. Insurance can rebuild buildings but insurance cannot rebuild the lives that have been destroyed by racist attitudes, policies, and practices. The message he was (attempting) to convey was an anti-racist message. But it became conflicted when he brought up private property damage. Another example was Oaks April conference talk about the constitution which was celebrated by Trumpers and progressives alike. I think it does the church and society a disservice being so vague and cryptic in messaging.

Imagine if I got up during a sacrament meeting commemorating Joseph Smith and gave a talk about him being a martyr but also attacking him for destroying the printing press or raping 14 year old girls. Would members think I was sending out conflicting messages? Am I doing the church or society a solid if I’m cryptic in my messaging about “past mistakes” made by the church?

Furthermore, it’s not like a light switch was pressed in 1978. It wasn’t like racist attitudes were eliminated because the church sent out a message saying that the priesthood ban had been lifted. In my experience, Utah Mormons are very racist, they’re just very subtle about it. They won’t say the N word but bring up Ryan Smith’s scholarship program. I dare you. Bring it up on Facebook. The responses you get will be eye-opening.
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You bring up a really good point. I can absolutely count on 1 hand how many times in my life I’ve heard LDS friends and family utter the N-Word. It’s just not something they do, which is admirable but I’ve been extremely disappointed recently when the subject of Ryan Smith’s scholarship program has been discussed.

I have a 23 year old daughter who’s white, blonde hair, blue eyes and didn’t have an ounce of a problem getting various grants and scholarships throughout her college career. The Utah Jazz scholarship program will have ZERO negative impact on the homogeneous population of Utah. The hand wringing over the issue has been very telling.
 
MeloTheJazzKiller said:
Three points:

1) in this case politics must be brought into our discussion of uncivil behavior. When the Prez calls another candidate's wife "ugly;" when the Prez is on tape speaking of grabbing women by the *****; when the Prez mocks a handicapped man ("You should have seen him!" Prez then spastically shakes his arms); and obviously I could go on....then is it any wonder that uncivil behavior is deemed acceptable by fans of that Prez or our youth?

2) blame must also be placed on the ESPN's of the world. Who is shown on ESPN Sports center highlights - me a well dressed man cheering for my team or the goof ball Raider fan with the face paint and dark mascara and spiked club? Why are bat flips, football players preening in the end zone, and in your face taunts after a slam dunk shown more on ESPN than an athlete bending over to help a competitor up? Why are absolute douche bags like Ray Lewis, A-Roid, Matt Barnes hired by the likes of ESPN? The answer is simple: uncivility sells. ESPN has made sure of that.

3) obviously blame must be placed on the very athletes theses fans taunt. When LeBum makes a public speech loaded with the F-word; when David Ortiz makes his retirement speech loaded with the F-word (compare Ortiz's going away speech to Lou Gehrig's); when Megan Rapinoe at the ticker tape parade for the women's soccer team gets up on stage and utters "Mother f******" in her speech....well, is it a stretch for a fan to yell the F-word to Trae Young or any other athlete?
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Taunting is fine, some good-natured "trash-talk" and friendly ribbing is probably to be expected. But the players and their families are in no way deserving of racial intolerance and abuse of any kind. Period.

Period.
 
I really appreciate the efforts at real and non-violent communication in this thread. If we want to address this as a fanbase, we can start right here in this online community.

I think the challenge for a place like Utah is there is a lot of suppression going on. I grew up there and anytime I take people back home they always comment on how polite everybody is. The culture places a lot of emphasis on demonstrating certain virtues, which then requires effort to surpass those “less than virtuous” thoughts and impulses. Inevitably, that suppressed energy needs to be expelled somehow. In Utah I think it comes out in sports and in driving, places where people experience a false sense of anonymity.

Utahns are some of the most aggressive drivers I have ever been around, and some of the most bombastic fans at sporting events, whether at Jazz or little league games. For what it’s worth, Utah also has one of the highest rate of anti-depressant medication use in the country, likely for the same reason. Combine that pent up energy with a lack of exposure to other cultures and you have a recipe for this type of behavior.

Solutions? For one, I think fans that have been caught acting badly should be publicly named by the team and written about negatively. This hopefully works against the sense of anonymity people feel in the arenas. Second, I think the Jazz should make a point of having lower bowl tickets available to more persons or color.
 
Ujfanatic said:
....a lack of exposure to other cultures.....
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It all comes down to that.

1.3%. Yup, that is the going rate of people of African Americans in the entire state of Utah. 1.3% That is astonishing. While African-Americans make up 15% of the US population, it is only 1% in Utah. Is it surprising that these racial events keep occurring in a Utah arena?
 
MeloTheJazzKiller said:
It all comes down to that.

1.3%. Yup, that is the going rate of people of African Americans in the entire state of Utah. 1.3% That is astonishing.
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Not really. At least if you're smart enough to understand how demographics works.

For you I wouldn't wager you are.
 
Nate505 said:
Not really. At least if you're smart enough to understand how demographics works.

For you I wouldn't wager you are.
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I've never heard the word "demographics," but it is easy to figure out that if only 1.3% of Utah is black, then demographics clearly means racial discrimination in real estate practices; border patrol that turns away those with dark skin; and an abundance of Klansmen and Neo-Nazis in the state's population. Thanks for helping me learn what demographics is and how it works.
 
Well, I think the in arena messages of respectful behavior helps. I would give authorization to beer vendors to deny alcohol to any fans who you think would get out of control. I would put posters by wherever alcohol is served. I would also work with the NBA to have these fans banned from all arenas. The only exception an owner can pardon a fan for proof of change and good behavior (it would be rare, but the most powerful advocates and change agents are those that work themselves back). In addition to the security and reporting system they have now, I would also have a team of employees focused on high profile attendees to make sure they feel comfortable and safe ahead of time and during the game.
 
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framer said:
How many Jews were beat up in the street in Utah the past month or two. Lets compare that number with New York City. . .

Btw, the answer is 0 in Utah and over 200 in NYC.
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Uhh, the better question is how many Jews are there in Utah?
Yeah, zero Jews were beat up in Utah, just like statistics will also show there were zero Martians beat up in Utah. Figure out why.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
What do you expect when you in a majority trump state?
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Hey dumb ***, its a good thing it is.

Otherwise we'd have millennial communist assholes out burning our community down. Or minorities walking down the street playing the knockout game with old elderly whites.

This is Biden's AmeriKKKa now boy, no more blaming Trump for the ****** country your people are creating.
 
Hax0rs said:
Hey dumb ***, its a good thing it is.

Otherwise we'd have millennial communist assholes out burning our community down. Or minorities walking down the street playing the knockout game with old elderly whites.

This is Biden's AmeriKKKa now boy, no more blaming Trump for the ****** country your people are creating.
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Trump is absolutely a large part to blame of some of the behavior we see today. He didn’t just do 4 years, he shifted a party to show all its disgusting corners and now they continue to cling to them.
 
oneye said:
Trump is absolutely a large part to blame of some of the behavior we see today. He didn’t just do 4 years, he shifted a party to show all its disgusting corners and now they continue to cling to them.
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I never said he wasn't. Please re-read my post and tell me how you got me saying "Trump isn't part to blame".

I said, "It's a good thing Utah is a Trump state".

This is another great example of millennial logic and deductive reasoning.
 
The Thriller said:
Just wanted to add, The “church” also sends conflicting messages. While many people celebrated Oaks bringing up BLM at BYU last year, he also brought up protests resulting in damage to private property. Those who support the status quo couldn’t have been any happier. While I don’t condone the destruction of private property, the fight for racial equality and social justice are not the same. Insurance can rebuild buildings but insurance cannot rebuild the lives that have been destroyed by racist attitudes, policies, and practices. The message he was (attempting) to convey was an anti-racist message. But it became conflicted when he brought up private property damage. Another example was Oaks April conference talk about the constitution which was celebrated by Trumpers and progressives alike. I think it does the church and society a disservice being so vague and cryptic in messaging. His “both sidesing” BLM just cripples any chance to address the issue and further divides church membership.
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Blacks were oppressed over 50 years ago and still feel there is systematic racism, that's fine I can agree with some of this.

I don't agree its okay for liberal whites and BLM to burn down some asian guy's store because of it. That's not right, you'll never find any sensible person agreeing with this stance. Insurance goes up for all business owners in the area.

It just goes to show what a piece of trash human you are for thinking this is "Okay"
 
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