Handlogten's Heros
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Tough to get better when you trading the GOAT.
Jazz Offseason Plan
- Thread starter Avery
- Start date
Ineptimusprime
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Who is reporting this? Link, por favor.
Handlogten's Heros
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I mean sure... if taxpayer MLE is enough (it likely isn't)
LoPo
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We should have pursued him 5 years ago when some of us were clamoring for him
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jom2003
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The thing is, last off season wasn't the first "screw ups on the fringes" for DL. In fact, those kinda moves are hardly new.
Just look at the Favors deal and tell me how it is different from the Dante extension three years ago. Giving a player with injury concerns/questionable physical conditions three year deal fully guaranteed when he could've easily worked out a team option/partial guarantee to mitigate the risk. Not to mention that premature Jingles 14mil extension when he was basically bidding against himself.
If you think the Matt Thomas trade is bad, what about waiving Jeff Green for Rayjon Tucker, who would also cost us a second round pick just six months after we signed him.
Then trading Thomas Bryant AND Josh Hart for Tony Bradley. The Doke pick looks so much better by comparison.
Or the Ed Davis signing.
The list just goes on and on.
I bet DL would've been fired long ago had Ryan Smith taken over sooner.
Handlogten's Heros
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That one takes me back to the second round pick argument I had with people... at draft time people would get pissy at me when I complain we sold a second round "lolz they are just second rounders... the cash helps us keep the team here and they totally reinvest it in the program."
then around the deadline I was though we should cash in some for guys like Tucker and it became "lolz those picks are important... we can't just give them up for a guy who is a rental for two months".
LoPo
Well-Known Member
416Klawzz
Well-Known Member
I thought DL got let go, did he suggest this ?
416Klawzz
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Just speaking my emotions ... I don't think Mitchell and Gobert can coexist. If they do Gobert is too much of a liability for guarding small ball, overpaid and too offensively challenged.
To succeed we need to trade him, unfortunately he isn't the answer and we won't win the title with his weaknesses.
I appreciate his defense but not at the cost of his offensive deficiencies.
To succeed we need to trade him, unfortunately he isn't the answer and we won't win the title with his weaknesses.
I appreciate his defense but not at the cost of his offensive deficiencies.
Ineptimusprime
Well-Known Member
I’ve vacillated back and forth on this. I think we give Don and Rudy one more run this next year with a bolstered supporting cast and see what we can do.
If we don’t advance to the Finals next year, we have definitive proof this build aint it. I think it’s pretty clear already, but hard for the FO to justify casting it all aside after finishing with the best record in the league and being snakebitten by injuries in the playoffs (I agree the roster is a flawed build because it is extremely deficient in the areas of length and athleticism, but I think that’s too tough for the FO to swallow right now).
Rudy, Don (because of a demand), or both will be traded next offseason or two deadlines from now. S
My anger in the following point(s) is directed at the universe and not you, but:
Can we ****ing stop with this “injury/bad luck” ********? KAWHI LEONARD TORE HIS ACL WITH THE SERIES TIED AND THE JAZZ WITH HCA. AD was done in the winter and LeBron had a rare real injury. Both Harden and Kyrie went down in their matchup with the Bucks. Giannis only didn’t **** up his knee by the miracle of his godly physique AND good luck.
No. The Jazz weren’t as good as the Clippers and anyone paying attention and was honest knew that. They were so much better that they won four straight: the first two in blowout wins and the last two without their best player.
It’s a fantasy to believe that the Jazz will have a better shot next year. There has never been a door wider open in league history.
IN ADDITION TO THAT: why are we supposed to believe that Conley’s obviously degenerative hamstring issue - that has caused him to miss ONE THIRD of his games over two seasons with the Jazz - is going to be any better the older he gets?
This roster hit its ceiling. I get the temptation to try again but it’s frankly a waste of an opportunity to get ahead on a retooling.
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Ineptimusprime
Well-Known Member
I can’t argue with that. I’m just playin’ DL’s advocate and trying to get inside the head of a FO that seems pretty set on running it back next year if TJ is to be believed.
If I were in control, I would hold onto Don and Rudy for one more year, but otherwise begin re-tooling and tinkering. I’d be fishing for S&Ts for Conley, and would try to find a way to turn Bogey into a Top 15 pick or a smaller contract from a younger, longer, more athletic dude.
As an aside, I would even add that our #1 seed finish was a bit flukey to begin with, because we benefitted from other teams being injured, never really played top teams at full strength, and avoided real injury problems of our own until we hit the softest part of our schedule to end the season and barely coasted to the finish line by a single game. I don’t at all think the current roster is worth going deep into the tax for, which is why the current messaging is confusing to me.
But what can I say, I believe the FO must be telling itself we need to give it another chance because of injuries during the playoffs. You could make a case we were the worst bit by the bug, because we had two all-stars impacted by the injury bug. I think it’s all BS, but that has to be their thinking, and it has to be really hard for them to step back and admit its a failed build as long as any valid excuses are still out there.
But I’ll say, the worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves. I think the current approach most likely leads to Don demanding a trade in the next year or two, but the FO is in too deep with the roster they built to see it that way. It all just means a longer more painful blowup when the blowup occurs.
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campaignist
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I’d rather retool-let Conley walk, trade Bogie for a better for or a replacement and draft pick, maybe even package him or something else with Royce.
but it looks like they’re running it back. If they do, what I’m hoping is that they’re only going to to see what they’ve got through the first 30-40 games, and if it doesn’t like much has changed, then you retool at the deadline. aim to get the payroll lower, hopefully down below the tax.
but it looks like they’re running it back. If they do, what I’m hoping is that they’re only going to to see what they’ve got through the first 30-40 games, and if it doesn’t like much has changed, then you retool at the deadline. aim to get the payroll lower, hopefully down below the tax.
jom2003
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to me, it's basically a 2010/2011 type of mid-season blowup waiting to happen. The new ownership probably wanna wait a bit to see if a retool would be truly necessary. It won't take long before they figure out the fact that the team has reached its ceiling and start trading everyone.
You would rather retool than make a run at a championship? It could take us years to get a team this good again. I'd rather take one more swing at it than blow it up and start a mini rebuild. We're not all that far away. Add a couple of wing defenders, a small ball 5 and maybe a backup point guard and take another crack at it.
jom2003
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unless we make a homerun with the 30th pick, the probability of this team progressing beyond 2nd round is close to zero. In fact, more chance of us taking a step backward based on the age of roster/cap flexibility/trade assets compared to other WC rivals.
campaignist
Well-Known Member
I’m really skeptical this roster can even make it to the conference finals with just a few moves. Keeping Conley, adding a reliable backup PG, adding someone like Batum, signing another wing defender *and* a small ball five? With almost no resources available? That seems like a tall order and needs a lot of luck. If they’re willing to swing for the fences with a big trade, maybe you can accomplish the bulk of that.
But let’s say they keep Conley, add a reliable backup, and get a decent small ball five. You really going to tell me that team can take down the Lakers, Clippers, Nets, and/or Milwaukee? Assuming both teams are at full strength.
I don’t buy it. And if Conley leaves without a sign and trade (I really don’t think a sign and trade would happen) then that’s game over. If you keep him and his injury gets worse or they fall short again, you’re stuck with him for another year or two.
That1UtahFan
Well-Known Member
This roster is too flawed to justify "running it back" imo. I've said it before and will say it again. Excellent regular season team as seen by the record but is not built for the playoffs as seen by what has happened in the playoffs. If it was good enough to justify running it back then this team would have reached at least a WCF in this season or last and injuries aren't an excuse worth using, every team was injured these playoffs. There's 2 options I see.
1. Take a step back so you can *potentially* take 2 steps forward by starting the "retooling" process now. Cut dead weight & get value in return for veteran players like JC, Bogey and the likes of Gobert whose value is only going to go down in the coming years.
Or 2. Run it back. Bring back Conley on an overpay and bring in a player/s like Batum/Tucker/Gay etc... to fill out the roster and hope you hit a grand slam with the 30th pick and have a lot of luck come your way because outside of that the Jazz have left themselves very limited in the ability to improve. You're not going to find 2 wing defenders, a small ball 5 & get a backup point guard who all will be contributors next season. Every team in the league is looking for those guys and I can guarantee playing in Utah isn't very high up on those players lists. If somehow someway you can get those types of players in and bring back Conley then it could be worth it. But I highly doubt you're going to solve that many roster problems on the Jazz current available budget.
If it was me I'd prefer option 1. There is a very good chance you miss the playoffs but you bring in future assets and can bring the roster cost/age down and have a chance to build up a less flawed roster from the start. With option 2 while yes you currently have a good team there is a very good chance you still end up in the exact same spot as the past few seasons. Both options have their flaws, you run the risk of alienating Donovan in a year or 2 if you take option 1 and he says he doesn't want to be apart of a rebuilding team. If that is the case though you've already halfway started your rebuild you can then dive head first into it by trading him for prospects/picks a la OKC/Paul George. But if he's fine with enduring a small rebuild then all the better. Get younger, more athletic, higer upside players to fit his timeline. Sure option 1 could fail and you don't reach the level of this current team in the next 3 years but option 2 isn't guaranteed success either. I just have this feeling with option 2 it's going to end in a complete roster blow up in 1-2 years time.
The name of the game is to win a championship. It feels like the the Jazz of the past has just conditioned fans to accept being on a treadmill of just not quite being good enough to win a title but being good enough to keep the broader fanbass engaged. I'd rather take risk of taking a step back but improving the long term than to be stuck in sports limbo.
TL;DR. Would prefer to start a retooling process now rather than go into a full blown rebuild in a year or 2.
1. Take a step back so you can *potentially* take 2 steps forward by starting the "retooling" process now. Cut dead weight & get value in return for veteran players like JC, Bogey and the likes of Gobert whose value is only going to go down in the coming years.
Or 2. Run it back. Bring back Conley on an overpay and bring in a player/s like Batum/Tucker/Gay etc... to fill out the roster and hope you hit a grand slam with the 30th pick and have a lot of luck come your way because outside of that the Jazz have left themselves very limited in the ability to improve. You're not going to find 2 wing defenders, a small ball 5 & get a backup point guard who all will be contributors next season. Every team in the league is looking for those guys and I can guarantee playing in Utah isn't very high up on those players lists. If somehow someway you can get those types of players in and bring back Conley then it could be worth it. But I highly doubt you're going to solve that many roster problems on the Jazz current available budget.
If it was me I'd prefer option 1. There is a very good chance you miss the playoffs but you bring in future assets and can bring the roster cost/age down and have a chance to build up a less flawed roster from the start. With option 2 while yes you currently have a good team there is a very good chance you still end up in the exact same spot as the past few seasons. Both options have their flaws, you run the risk of alienating Donovan in a year or 2 if you take option 1 and he says he doesn't want to be apart of a rebuilding team. If that is the case though you've already halfway started your rebuild you can then dive head first into it by trading him for prospects/picks a la OKC/Paul George. But if he's fine with enduring a small rebuild then all the better. Get younger, more athletic, higer upside players to fit his timeline. Sure option 1 could fail and you don't reach the level of this current team in the next 3 years but option 2 isn't guaranteed success either. I just have this feeling with option 2 it's going to end in a complete roster blow up in 1-2 years time.
The name of the game is to win a championship. It feels like the the Jazz of the past has just conditioned fans to accept being on a treadmill of just not quite being good enough to win a title but being good enough to keep the broader fanbass engaged. I'd rather take risk of taking a step back but improving the long term than to be stuck in sports limbo.
TL;DR. Would prefer to start a retooling process now rather than go into a full blown rebuild in a year or 2.