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Handlogten's Heros said:
I think he was comparing Donovan to hubcaps, Rudy to a car, and picks to raffle tickets to show the value in comparison with each other. You are hung up on worthless... it is to show what he thinks they are worth... which is raffle tickets... which isn't worth much. I have talked a lot with him here over the years and I would guess he values picks a whole lot less than most posters on this forum. He doesn't think they are worthless but I think its fair to say he thinks their best value is in trades for actual players.

Is it an exaggeration... it is. Is it fair for me to say "hey these picks aren't worthless raffle tickets?"... i think it is. To be accused of straw man arguments and misinterpreting things is pretty wild... especially when you out here saying "many on this board wouldn't trade Bogey for Smart" when there were actually very few people that did.



They simply had their limits... not some master plan to blow it up. They tried to do deals and came up empty. The stuff they offered didn't match what Portland wanted... you can loop in other teams if you want... if there was a good deal that didn't hurt our future or cost a billion dollars in tax they would have done it. They might not view RoCo/Powell as obvious upgrades to Royce and Bogey... at least not obvious enough to invest a pick or the additional money.
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If you know he doesn’t think they are worthless, there is literally no reason to get upset that someone thinks they are worthless. I really don’t think it takes a genius to see the hesitancy of trading a guaranteed star player for a bunch of low chances to get a star. Maybe you think those low chances are worth it, but if you don’t it doesn’t mean those low chances are worthless.

You also don’t need to make up Roco/Powell = championship btw lol. That came out of nowhere. No one says or believes these things and we all know it. It’s ok to have a difference in opinion and you don’t have to make up something from the other side to make your opinion more valid.
 
gomretat said:
Trading Donny for real players and a few picks could create some options and potentially a much better fit. If you blow it up every time you have an underachieving year odds are good you will just keep blowing it up. I lived through the Stockton Malone era when lots of folks wanted it blown up and Larry and Jerry stayed the course. I am not convinced this team couldn't have done some retooling and tinkering and gotten better, especially with a new coach and a better locker room. Getting back to two all stars who are not past their prime is a very tall order.
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I lived through Stockton/Malone too... the CBA would never allow that type of team to form over 15 years... even if you did... the working relationship with those two is so much better than Don and Rudy.

I agree trading Don was a better idea than Don/Rudy going forward now that all the reporting has come out about how toxic it was. it almost certainly would yield the disappointing results we have had the last 3 years (its not just one underachieving year... sorry bud.) Rudy has like 2-3 good AS years left if he's lucky... father time is undefeated. What were we going to accomplish the next two years with Rudy and say RJ Barrett and some rookies?

Also, the last time we truly blew it up and went scorched earth was when? It isn't like this is common.
 
KqWIN said:
If you know he doesn’t think they are worthless, there is literally no reason to get upset that someone thinks they are worthless. I really don’t think it takes a genius to see the hesitancy of trading a guaranteed star player for a bunch of low chances to get a star. Maybe you think those low chances are worth it, but if you don’t it doesn’t mean those low chances are worthless.

You also don’t need to make up Roco/Powell = championship btw lol. That came out of nowhere. No one says or believes these things and we all know it. It’s ok to have a difference in opinion and you don’t have to make up something from the other side to make your opinion more valid.
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The lowest value cars sell for like $10kish and we traded that for something that is routinely sold for a dollar or two at school functions. I'm not upset at that... I pointed out how I thought it was a wild miscalculation. Then you come in and are like "ain't no one implying these things are worthless... geez making **** up". Sorry I didn't nail the exact worth here... technically not worthless... but worth about $2.

My simple point is there are plenty on here downplaying the Rudy return as just a few mediocre picks or making it seem like we got a pile of magic beans. When the reality is 90% of the reporting around the trade was "holy **** they got a ton for him" with some "well now teams can't trade their stars for less than what Danny got from Minny".

If Roco/Powell doesn't give the team a better chance at a title then its tough to argue its worth the huge investment it would have been financially. Saving money on the current league year was a large part of that deal... taking on money for us would have been troublesome. I just don't think its as simple as you are making it... I think its okay to say they didn't try everything and were too stagnant in years past... but once Joe went down we were cooked. It shut the tiny little sliver of a championship window we had.

Just because someone sees things differently than you it doesn't make them a child or an idiot.
 
Collecting picks doesn't win titles... hitting on picks does... we have stacked the odds that we will hit on enough picks. We will have the extra draft capital to do the finish work we couldn't with this group.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
The lowest value cars sell for like $10kish and we traded that for something that is routinely sold for a dollar or two at school functions. I'm not upset at that... I pointed out how I thought it was a wild miscalculation. Then you come in and are like "ain't no one implying these things are worthless... geez making **** up". Sorry I didn't nail the exact worth here... technically not worthless... but worth about $2.

My simple point is there are plenty on here downplaying the Rudy return as just a few mediocre picks or making it seem like we got a pile of magic beans. When the reality is 90% of the reporting around the trade was "holy **** they got a ton for him" with some "well now teams can't trade their stars for less than what Danny got from Minny".

If Roco/Powell doesn't give the team a better chance at a title then its tough to argue its worth the huge investment it would have been financially. Saving money on the current league year was a large part of that deal... taking on money for us would have been troublesome. I just don't think its as simple as you are making it... I think its okay to say they didn't try everything and were too stagnant in years past... but once Joe went down we were cooked. It shut the tiny little sliver of a championship window we had.

Just because someone sees things differently than you it doesn't make them a child or an idiot.
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I’m totally fine with seeing something different, it doesn’t make for good discussion when you make up the other side’s talking points.

I do think you’re an idiot if you though Infection was implying that picks are worthless. It’s as idiotic as saying that picks have some crazy value like an 80% of winning the lotto. No one actually believes these things we all know it, it’s simply arguing in bad faith.

I’m certainly on the side that the haul for Rudy isn’t what the media has hyped it to be. Doesn’t mean I think that it was worthless. I’d even say it was really good trade value return for the Jazz, but there more to this than just winning or losing the trades. Rudy has given the Jazz more success than just about the entire TWolves history as a franchise….and even though it was a lot of picks I can see why it’s worth it then or why it would have been worth it for us to keep Rudy. Certainly not the worst trade in NBA history or whatever Simmons was calling it.

It would have been really hard to get the next step and beyond that with Don/Rudy…but it’s also going to be really tough to get there with what we have now and what we get for Don. The decision to blow it up vs rebuild certainly got more difficult as more time (and terrible moves) went by, but I still would have stuck it out with Don and Rudy and possibly one or the other depending on what else was out there.
 
KqWIN said:
“Worth less” is not the same as “worthless”.
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Hard eye roll here... very cute.

Me: Hey kids you are worth less than $2.

Wife: Heard you called the kids worthless!?!?!

Me: What?????? Where'd you get that impression????
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Hard eye roll here... very cute.

Me: Hey kids you are worth less than $2.

Wife: Heard you called the kids worthless!?!?!

Me: What?????? Where'd you get that impression????
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1: These picks are worth less than they are made out to be.

2: I can’t believe people are saying picks are worthless!!!!!!
 
KqWIN said:
I do think you’re an idiot if you though Infection was implying that picks are worthless. It’s as idiotic as saying that picks have some crazy value like an 80% of winning the lotto. No one actually believes these things we all know it, it’s simply arguing in bad faith.
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Yup those are the same... nailed it.
 
KqWIN said:
1: These picks are worth the same as something that is worth less than $2 and routinely gets thrown in the trash.

2: I can’t believe people are saying picks are worthless!!!!!!
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FIFY
 
@KqWIN people don't mean the things they type and every moron knows that... lolz lmao

also @KqWIN worth less and worthless are completely different things!!!!! There is a space!!!! a space!!!!!
 
So to those that think we sold this build short:

Tell us what the Jazz were supposed to do. Realistically. Knowing Danny Ainge and that everyone would’ve wanted this year to go well - whether they were planning on nuking it this off-season ahead of time or not - are we to believe that he didn’t look for the deals to improve the team last season? We needed something for nothing and maximizing assets is what Danny Ainge does. Nothing was there

So, what were/are the Jazz supposed to do? And if just staying the course is the answer, what makes you think this team isn’t even worse in the years to follow?
 
NUMBERICA said:
So to those that think we sold this build short:

Tell us what the Jazz were supposed to do. Realistically. Knowing Danny Ainge and that everyone would’ve wanted this year to go well - whether they were planning on nuking it this off-season ahead of time or not - are we to believe that he didn’t look for the deals to improve the team last season? We needed something for nothing and maximizing assets is what Danny Ainge does. Nothing was there

So, what were/are the Jazz supposed to do? And if just staying the course is the answer, what makes you think this team isn’t even worse in the years to follow?
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If the answer here is that the Jazz - with two very flawed stars that are the heart of one of the most toxic locker rooms in memory - needed to start offloading unprotected picks because “lolz they are raffle tickets lolz who cares?” Then please go sit at the kids table.

This thing ran its course and it’s okay. The team wasn’t going to get any closer than they were in 2021. The window closed. It’s okay.

On the flip side, I think it’s within the realm of possibility to re-sign Gobert but be sitting on a mountain of promising youth and more assets in the chamber. He will not be who he is now, but that’s the same in 2026 whether he stays in the intervening years or not.
 
NUMBERICA said:
So to those that think we sold this build short:

Tell us what the Jazz were supposed to do. Realistically. Knowing Danny Ainge and that everyone would’ve wanted this year to go well - whether they were planning on nuking it this off-season ahead of time or not - are we to believe that he didn’t look for the deals to improve the team last season? We needed something for nothing and maximizing assets is what Danny Ainge does. Nothing was there

So, what were/are the Jazz supposed to do? And if just staying the course is the answer, what makes you think this team isn’t even worse in the years to follow?
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The first thing they should have done is fired Quin after the LAC series. As flawed as the Jazz roster was, they coulda shoulda woulda won the LAC series and been in a good position to make the finals. We were clearly at a strategic and coaching disadvantage. I think very few coaches in the league would have lost that series and Quin could only do it because he engrained such bad habits into his players. I think the same could be said for the DAL series, but the entire team/franchise had already seemed to be checked out at that point anyways. Quin was a particularly bad coach for this Jazz team because he coddled the players and never challenged them. It's the reason they loved him, but a big reason why we never had a turnaround the way the Celtics did when Ime Udoka challenged his players. If the Jazz were anything but a historical failure on defense in the DEN and LAC series....they would have advanced easily but Quin could not change his way.

Having said that, the roster also had flaws that no coach could fix completely. The Jazz should have also flipped some combination of Conley/Bogey/Clarkson/O'Neale before the season. Really they should have done it years before, but trading those older vets for younger players and/or players who fit around Mitchell and Gobert was something obvious and better for the franchise no matter what direction they wanted to go. The roster as it stood was obviously flawed. We had lots of these trade discussions during the summer and throughout the season. It's debatable whether guys like Josh Hart, Derrick White, Kyle Anderson, Marcus Smart, Thad Young etc. would have produced better results. In a lot of the proposed trades, the Jazz would be getting what would be perceived as a worse player in favor of getting someone or who is a better git. The grass isn't always greener argument was brought up all the time whenever the proposition of trading one of flawed role players came up...but the grass was already as torched. The Jazz were horrendously stupid for sitting on their surplus of offense only, no defense players. It was obvious since Miye Oni was advertised as the solution to Jamal Murray torching us. I will die on this hill forever.

Staying the course was absolutely the worst thing the Jazz could have done. The Jazz obviously didn't do anything to improve, but that doesn't mean they exhausted every possibility. It doesn't matter to me if they tried look, but declined trades that would have been good. It's the same effect. I think it's most plausible that they overrated the players we had and there was also great hesitation because the FO was already leaning towards the huge overhaul that was heavily reported/speculated on by the beat reporters all year. The fact that nothing did happen certainly does not prove to me that nothing could have happened....but I would say that the inaction year over year does suggest that the Jazz FO did not take their flaws seriously enough. Hard for me to chalk it up to a tough trade market when there were multiple years of inaction.

Mitchell and Gobert are definitely flawed players, but they are also really freaking good. Last year was pretty close to worse case scenario outside of major injury issues....and yet they still had the 3rd highest SRS in the league. RS is not the same as playoffs, but they are still very special players who have had playoff heroics on their own. Get the right coach, get some youngish players who might be better fits, and maybe make a move on the margin or two that isn't horrible...Yeah I think those things are very doable and would make a big difference. Does this mean we win the championship? Probably not. Does having a bunch of picks mean we win the championship? Also probably not. Mitchell and Gobert are the guys you tank for and tanking is a permanently available option. The trade return on Gobert (especially) and Mitchell might not have been what we'd get now....but those two are good enough players where I would give them another chance with a different coach and a roster that is set up to fail do horrible roster flaws. Between better coaching, a more balanced roster, and better vibes there was a ton of room for improvement. Blow it up now, you probably get better stuff for them. But the opportunity cost is that you gave up on Don/Rudy forever, and I think that combo still had potential even if it was difficult to proceed.

My stance hasn't changed too much over time....but I will admit that it is a more difficult decision than it was after the LAC series. The coaching change and types of moves we should have been seeking are the same as they were now as they were a year ago. It would have still been worth it for me to do those moves and give it another go. Players like Rudy/Don just don't come around often, especially at the same time. The path with Rudy/Don is/was is increasingly more difficult, but it is also very difficult to build a title contender even if you have a bunch of extra picks. It's hard to get players as good as Rudy and Don in the first place.
 
Best time to tank was right after the Clippers series, the next best time is now.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
@KqWIN people don't mean the things they type and every moron knows that... lolz lmao

also @KqWIN worth less and worthless are completely different things!!!!! There is a space!!!! a space!!!!!
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I think people mean the things they say, and not in the most uncharitable interpretation possible. I can't believe you're dying on this hill that Infection thinks that picks are something to be tossed away for nothing, but if it makes you feel better so be it. A raffle ticket could mean anything, it depends on the raffle. The exact percentage or expected value wasn't even the point of his statement. No one thinks that the picks are worthless, and you know that, so there's no reason to be hysterical about an opinion that no one holds.

That also isn't the only thing you made up out of your *** in this argument. The Roco/Powell = championship thing was totally out of your imagination lmao. But hey, creative writing is something people should do more.
 
I think the old front office may have also fallen for the "Players are going to be lining up to sign and play with Donovan!" narrative that flew around his rookie season. That really didn't happen...
 
gandalfe said:
I think the old front office may have also fallen for the "Players are going to be lining up to sign and play with Donovan!" narrative that flew around his rookie season. That really didn't happen...
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I mean, we got Bojan, and a bunch of minimum dudes that everyone on this board was excited about.
 
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