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Donald is about to go through some things...

It would be simple to redact the name of the witness. They won't release the affidavit because they want to hide EVERYTHING. You blindly trust the government far more than I do. Everyone should want to see that their government can be trusted not to break their own rules.
Everything on that affidavit should be hidden. Be it other investigations. Be it cooperating witnesses, be it criminal activity tied to Trump himself. Everything remains hidden at this point. Yes, they could redact witnesses. And a lot more than just that, so that no hands are tipped. I don’t trust Trump. You don’t even want the man held to any account whatsoever. I believe we need to demonstrate to future generations of Americans that we at least tried to hold him to account. We may fail, it all remains to be seen, but I am not in favor of giving that ******* any ammunition to use in crafting his lies. You, on the other hand, are fine with that. And yes, I do trust Garland to be independent, and not simply acting for Biden and Democrats. But I’m not blind, sir. Not in the least. My eyes are wide open. As I’ve said many times, I recognized what we were in store for the day Trump descended Trump Tower in 2015. As far as I’m concerned, I hit it out of the park.
 
The frightening thing to me is how easily Trump supporters not only give him a pass, but convince themselves there is no way he could do anything wrong, so whatever he does is perfectly fine and in fact the best course of action at the moment. There is a wave going around my wife's facebook group that Trump only took home documents to help protect the country and so by raiding Mar-a-Lago the FBI actually committed treason.

Of course this is heavily dependent on many of them still holding out that Trump is still the rightful dictat...uh president and that Biden was elected due to massive and unprecedented voter fraud never before seen in our country. So with this heavy victim mentality, it is easy for them to bring anything else into their belief-system that exonerates Trump and in fact makes him the martyr/hero of the story. He could literally be holding children chained up in his basement at Mar-a-Lago and a substantial portion of the US would forgive him, justify his actions (he was protecting the children from their liberal parents, you know, q-anon and other such ********), and praise him as the messiah they believe him to be. He was absolutely right when he said he could shoot someone and no one would care. But worse than that, many would find a way to tie into their messiah-worship complex as a heroic act necessary for the security and safety of the country.

I do not think we have ever seen such a cult of personality in the presidency, or really in any high office of our government, like this before. And hopefully we never do again.
 
The issue has never been about Trump’s “limitless” ability to declassify classified documents/information. The issue to me is Trump never gave a **** about the United States or it’s national security. They kept intell from him, after realizing how much he simply did not give a ****. It’s an absolute joke for anybody to be defending this clown, esp. defending the “need” to release the affidavit, even with redactions. If Donald Trump needs to see it, he will, if called for, and in good time. Until then, we give him no ammo to weave into his constant lies.

Look at the way this clown acts irresponsibly regarding classified intelligence. Any thinking person knows and understands that this clown never belonged in the Oval Office. He never took the job of president seriously. Nobody should be defending him at all. He hates our country, otherwise he would never have created the Big Lie and damaged our body politic. That one fact proves this man hates his country.


The big question, or one of them anyway, is why he wanted to hold on so tightly to what he was keeping at Mar-a-Lago. But, no, we’re supposed to care whether or not he can see the affidavit…..

 
And yes, I do trust Garland to be independent, and not simply acting for Biden and Democrats.
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Everything on that affidavit should be hidden. Be it other investigations. Be it cooperating witnesses, be it criminal activity tied to Trump himself. Everything remains hidden at this point. Yes, they could redact witnesses. And a lot more than just that, so that no hands are tipped. I don’t trust Trump. ... I am not in favor of giving that ******* any ammunition to use in crafting his lies. You, on the other hand, are fine with that.
Yes I am fine with that. I am classically liberal. I support the free speech rights of neo-nazis even if I am disgusted by what they say and who they are. I support due process, search and seizure limitations, the presumption of innocence, and Miranda rights even for child molesters. I am opposed to capitol punishment even for serial killers. When it comes to individuals versus the government, even if that individual is Trump, I consistently stand with nerfing the government because the government is so powerful and I am not so naive as to believe that I could never possibly be in the government's crosshairs one day or that they never make mistakes.
 
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The big question, or one of them anyway, is why he wanted to hold on so tightly to what he was keeping at Mar-a-Lago. But, no, we’re supposed to care whether or not he can see the affidavit…..
I do want to see the affidavit, but the bigger issue was the seizure of all attorney-client privileged documents that had nothing to do with the national archive. Upon discovering the FBI had done that, Team Trump immediately requested an independent party take possession of the attorney-client privileged documents which the FBI had no legal right to see, but the FBI told them that the FBI would make copies and share the illegally seized information with prosecutors read all the documents and return whatever the FBI didn't have rights to posses.
 
do not think we have ever seen such a cult of personality in the presidency, or really in any high office of our government, like this before. And hopefully we never do again.
Agree, and IMHO, it’s not all that hard to recognize. Plus, the degree of having been ensnared by the Trump cult of personality makes it so hard, likely impossible in many cases, to break through the straight jacket close mindedness that would allow for the blinders to fall from the eyes of the “afflicted”.

One of the things that surprised, and puzzled me, is how adults who should have, by adulthood, know something about how the world works, would simply fail to recognize how a con works. Donald Trump is as transparently obvious a conman as any I have known. And credit where due, he has raised the bar in standard of success, in the “art” of blaming others for the very behavior he himself commits, and in always self identifying as the victim.

 
I am not in favor of giving that ******* any ammunition to use in crafting his lies. You, on the other hand, are fine with that.

Yes I am fine with that.
Well, you addressed that comment directly, so I should be safe in assuming you are saying you are fine with Trump being given ammo to use in crafting his lies. I cannot possibly be surprised. I can’t argue with most of the rest of your reply. However, in this instance, there is no reason to simply hand over the affidavit to the individual we know as Donald Trump. His individual rights are not being trampled by withholding the affidavit(whether to release is to be decided one way or another this Thursday). He’s the one that broadcast the news of the “raid”. And of course he would, and he lied about the details. And no doubt he would find a way to do the same with the affidavit, even if redacted up the wazoo. One Brow told you when an affidavit could/would be released. I’d like to see that affidavit as much as the news outlets that requested it, but it’s just not time. And we may never have reason to see it. The judge may disagree, but I doubt it very much.
 
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Which of those individuals should the Justice Department be prosecuting right now, and for what crimes, precisely? It's not as if they keep their hands off all Democrats.



Yes I am fine with that. I am classically liberal.
I wasn't aware "classically liberal" meant you supported the rights of states to restrict women's choices about who gets to use their bodies. Your classical liberalism only seems to emerge when it assists conservatives in gaining or maintaining power.
 
Upon discovering the FBI had done that, Team Trump immediately requested an independent party take possession of the attorney-client privileged documents which the FBI had no legal right to see, but the FBI told them that the FBI would make copies and share the illegally seized information with prosecutors read all the documents and return whatever the FBI didn't have rights to posses.
It's so nice to see conservatives interested in the rights of defendants when the defendants are wealthy, white men. I wish they would bring half this passion when the FBI does this to Muslim people, or black people, or poor people. Instead, all I seem to hear in those cases is the need to keep the country safe. If you weren't upset that FBI/sheriff's offices/local police behaved this way last month or 5 years ago, then why should I take your current disapproval as anything other than convenient?
 
The frightening thing to me is how easily Trump supporters not only give him a pass, but convince themselves there is no way he could do anything wrong, so whatever he does is perfectly fine and in fact the best course of action at the moment. There is a wave going around my wife's facebook group that Trump only took home documents to help protect the country and so by raiding Mar-a-Lago the FBI actually committed treason.

Of course this is heavily dependent on many of them still holding out that Trump is still the rightful dictat...uh president and that Biden was elected due to massive and unprecedented voter fraud never before seen in our country. So with this heavy victim mentality, it is easy for them to bring anything else into their belief-system that exonerates Trump and in fact makes him the martyr/hero of the story. He could literally be holding children chained up in his basement at Mar-a-Lago and a substantial portion of the US would forgive him, justify his actions (he was protecting the children from their liberal parents, you know, q-anon and other such ********), and praise him as the messiah they believe him to be. He was absolutely right when he said he could shoot someone and no one would care. But worse than that, many would find a way to tie into their messiah-worship complex as a heroic act necessary for the security and safety of the country.

I do not think we have ever seen such a cult of personality in the presidency, or really in any high office of our government, like this before. And hopefully we never do again.
This crap is really way over the top of crazy. And I'm the expert on that subject, if you believe any of your "friends" in here.

No President of the Us has ever had the lunatic opposition Trump has had. Before he was even elected, plans were laid for his impeachment. "The Resistance" in here declared their heroic opposition the day he won. Many dems claimed his victory was "illegal" and that he was illegitimate as Prwsident.

Should have been a lot of media crap about how those folks were an insurrection, but the Media was in with it big time.

To become reasonabler about all this, you need to recognize why he was ever a "thing". For decades, no one could get a swing at the Presidency without approval from an "in-crowd" in Washington and in corporate America, lets call them "the Chamber of Commerce" or the Council on Foreign Relations..... pretty much the same thing. Even the media honchos are all in the CFR.

Ostensibly, the CFR is a non-partisan club that invites prestigious people to join. Lately, they've opened up membership to applicants, but they have a set of intellectual offerings, books and such, they want you to read. But in reality, it is the American twin of the British Royal Institute of Institute of international Affairs, the Pemberly Place er..... Chatham House of British high society. Both originated at the same meeting and arose from the same plan to solidify Western political alignment. Sibling instutes or councils have been established in almost every western nation. They have been so effective in controling politics in all of these countries, no one could ever get into power without belonging, essentially, to the "club".

Donald Trump went to the head office of the US CFR, hat in hand, seeking approval from the head of that organization, but he failed to comply with the fundamental conditions for acceptance. He had his own ideas. He wasn't going to just take instructions.

For decades, American conservatives with ideals of having a government they could expect to comply with their ideas have been so badly lied to, and about, by politicians and all kinds of progressive political wonks, there was a huge mass of of the electorate that almost stopped believing they had any say. Add to that the millions of ordinary Americans who have been hammnered economically by bad government policies and leadership, who just wanted something diff3erent.

So here come Trump, with just enough financial independence he " could "just say "no" to bad government". He stood up and said a few things that lit the fire for change, the real hope for change.

And a real threat to the Establishment.

So go ahead, love your Establishment. Love your politcal dream.

but Trump is nothing but a real "American" who represents the will of most Americdans. If he goes ttotalitarian, he'll be gone overnight. If he sticks to doing stuff people want him to do, he's a threat to your bad political wetdreams. Buty not to democracy.
 
This crap is really way over the top of crazy. And I'm the expert on that subject, if you believe any of your "friends" in here.

No President of the Us has ever had the lunatic opposition Trump has had. Before he was even elected, plans were laid for his impeachment. "The Resistance" in here declared their heroic opposition the day he won. Many dems claimed his victory was "illegal" and that he was illegitimate as Prwsident.

Should have been a lot of media crap about how those folks were an insurrection, but the Media was in with it big time.

To become reasonabler about all this, you need to recognize why he was ever a "thing". For decades, no one could get a swing at the Presidency without approval from an "in-crowd" in Washington and in corporate America, lets call them "the Chamber of Commerce" or the Council on Foreign Relations..... pretty much the same thing. Even the media honchos are all in the CFR.

Ostensibly, the CFR is a non-partisan club that invites prestigious people to join. Lately, they've opened up membership to applicants, but they have a set of intellectual offerings, books and such, they want you to read. But in reality, it is the American twin of the British Royal Institute of Institute of international Affairs, the Pemberly Place er..... Chatham House of British high society. Both originated at the same meeting and arose from the same plan to solidify Western political alignment. Sibling instutes or councils have been established in almost every western nation. They have been so effective in controling politics in all of these countries, no one could ever get into power without belonging, essentially, to the "club".

Donald Trump went to the head office of the US CFR, hat in hand, seeking approval from the head of that organization, but he failed to comply with the fundamental conditions for acceptance. He had his own ideas. He wasn't going to just take instructions.

For decades, American conservatives with ideals of having a government they could expect to comply with their ideas have been so badly lied to, and about, by politicians and all kinds of progressive political wonks, there was a huge mass of of the electorate that almost stopped believing they had any say. Add to that the millions of ordinary Americans who have been hammnered economically by bad government policies and leadership, who just wanted something diff3erent.

So here come Trump, with just enough financial independence he " could "just say "no" to bad government". He stood up and said a few things that lit the fire for change, the real hope for change.

And a real threat to the Establishment.

So go ahead, love your Establishment. Love your politcal dream.

but Trump is nothing but a real "American" who represents the will of most Americdans. If he goes ttotalitarian, he'll be gone overnight. If he sticks to doing stuff people want him to do, he's a threat to your bad political wetdreams. Buty not to democracy.

He has already posed a direct threat to democracy, that is undeniable unless you bury your head in the sand. He does not represent the ideals I want to see in my America, and I couldn't give 2 ***** what the "establishment" wants. He was a piece of **** of a human being for 4 years, then he turned into a treasonous traitor to the country. Full stop. I do not care what you think his opposition was or how unfairly he was maligned during his presidency. At the end of it he tried to pull of a coup, that is treason. Period. He fostered the lie that the election was stolen. That is a treasonous act. During his presidency I was more one of those just weathering the storm until he and his *****-grabbing buddies and his nepotistic unqualified appointments left the White House. But at the end of it all, he sowed the seeds of rebellion and civil war, and for what? Because he was treated unfairly? Yeah, bull-****ing-**** to that. He did it to try to emulate his greatest heroes, the ones he looked up to like a dog to its master, the dictators in North Korea and Russia. He wanted what they have, unlimited power. That is his entire driving force. He doesn't give a single **** about Americans, or what is best for the people, or any people other than himself. He is a narcissistic psychopath and acts as one, entirely in his own self-interest. Why did he appoint his family to all of those important positions? So he knew there was at least one front where he had total control. And anytime anyone disagreed with him? He fired them and appointed someone else. He is a ****ing psychopathic child and frankly needs to be put down, for real. But I will settle for jail time for the damage he did to my country.

**** the establishment and frankly **** all the assholes that believe in and foster all of this new world order conspiracy ********, and all the other conspiracies like q-anon and everything else. It distracts people from seeing what is really going on, and in the end will be the downfall of the nation. One of the greatest nations on earth, destroyed by the public being deceived into believing ******** over fact and being conditioned to see anything against their view as fake news. That will be the downfall of our country, lead there willingly by social media and conspiracy nuts and assholes that have been fed so much victim mentality that it has developed into a mass psychosis, with Trump as its festering and fetid despotic messiah.
 
Many dems claimed his victory was "illegal" and that he was illegitimate as Prwsident.
No national Democratic politician made this claim. Four years later, Trump himself tried to pull this tactic. You're just trying to project onto Democrats the behavior of Republicans, but it doesn't work.

Should have been a lot of media crap about how those folks were an insurrection, ...
No storming of the Capitol occurred. That's a pretty big difference.

but Trump is nothing but a real "American" who represents the will of most Americdans.
Trump loves Trump, and you're a sucker for thinking he's about anything else.
 
The frightening thing to me is how easily Trump supporters not only give him a pass, but convince themselves there is no way he could do anything wrong, so whatever he does is perfectly fine and in fact the best course of action at the moment. There is a wave going around my wife's facebook group that Trump only took home documents to help protect the country and so by raiding Mar-a-Lago the FBI actually committed treason.

Of course this is heavily dependent on many of them still holding out that Trump is still the rightful dictat...uh president and that Biden was elected due to massive and unprecedented voter fraud never before seen in our country. So with this heavy victim mentality, it is easy for them to bring anything else into their belief-system that exonerates Trump and in fact makes him the martyr/hero of the story. He could literally be holding children chained up in his basement at Mar-a-Lago and a substantial portion of the US would forgive him, justify his actions (he was protecting the children from their liberal parents, you know, q-anon and other such ********), and praise him as the messiah they believe him to be. He was absolutely right when he said he could shoot someone and no one would care. But worse than that, many would find a way to tie into their messiah-worship complex as a heroic act necessary for the security and safety of the country.

I do not think we have ever seen such a cult of personality in the presidency, or really in any high office of our government, like this before. And hopefully we never do again.
In summary, trumpers are brainwashed idiots, at least as it pertains to anything trump related.
 
Yes I am fine with that. I am classically liberal. I support the free speech rights of neo-nazis even if I am disgusted by what they say and who they are.
Perhaps the difference lies here. Because the Big Lie, that I lay directly at Donald Trump’s feet, damages the body politic, in ways I don’t believe we’ve seen the end of, or fully appreciate for the injury it likely represents, to the functioning of our nation’s political life, and tenor of our social fabric, I see it as being an act similar to yelling fire in a crowded theater. I cannot support that expression of his freedom of speech as something I need to defend as a constitutional right. The man does not behave responsibly with his speech. If his lies were not injurious to our body politic and social fabric, but, they are. They have an injurious effect on the electorate, by ensnaring a significant portion of the electorate in a lie to their liking. Gotta go with the truth, even when it’s difficult to discern, but it’s not to be found in the narratives being spun by the liar.
 
Perhaps the difference lies here. Because the Big Lie, that I lay directly at Donald Trump’s feet, damages the body politic, in ways I don’t believe we’ve seen the end of, or fully appreciate for the injury it likely represents, to the functioning of our nation’s political life, and tenor of our social fabric, I see it as being an act similar to yelling fire in a crowded theater. I cannot support that expression of his freedom of speech as something I need to defend as a constitutional right. The man does not behave responsibly with his speech. If his lies were not injurious to our body politic and social fabric, but, they are. They have an injurious effect on the electorate, by ensnaring a significant portion of the electorate in a lie to their liking. Gotta go with the truth, even when it’s difficult to discern, but it’s not to be found in the narratives being spun by the liar.
Ya its going to be fun to see every republican who loses an election in november say that the election was stolen. Probably some democrats going to use that excuse as well. Joy
 
Things like this are no bueno: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-angry-words-spur-warnings-205303076.html

Trumpers see any investigation into trump as an attack on themselves (which makes no sense).
On Monday, the Department of Justice announced the arrest of a Pennsylvania man who had made repeated threats on the lives on FBI agents on Gab, a platform popular with Trump supporters.

“You’ve declared war on us and now it’s open season on YOU,” he wrote in one post shared by authorities.

“Biden sending the FBI to raid a former President, Mr. Donald Trump’s home is a declaration of WAR against him and his supporters," wrote one poster on the Telegram platform.

The intelligence bulletin also noted federal law enforcement officials have identified multiple threats against government officials involved in the Mar-a-Lago search, including calls to kill the magistrate judge who signed the search warrant.

The names and home addresses of FBI agents and other officials have been posted online, along with references to family members who could be additional targets, according to the intelligence documents.

“These threats of violence and even civil war – coming predominantly from right-wing extremists online – are not only un-American but are a threat to our democracy and the rule of law,” Thompson said.

The search of Trump's residence was executed based on a lawfully obtained warrant signed by a judge. But that's beside the point for Trump and his allies.
 
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Trump currently faces six lawsuits, three criminal investigations, and a civil investigation on top of his indictment by the Manhattan district attorney's office. He has also filed two lawsuits — one against his niece, Mary Trump, and another against his former election rival Hillary Clinton.
 
No national Democratic politician made this claim. Four years later, Trump himself tried to pull this tactic. You're just trying to project onto Democrats the behavior of Republicans, but it doesn't work.


No storming of the Capitol occurred. That's a pretty big difference.


Trump loves Trump, and you're a sucker for thinking he's about anything else.
Trump does love Trump, and ranks pretty high on the scales for alpha male traits, sociopathy, and lets say a whole lot of other things people might think of. But it's not that simple. He loves pretty women, he loves money, he loves his ideals of America as the place where you can be all that, without apology.

He is also unusually energetic, highly intelligent, and successful in a number of respects, to the annoyance of critics and competitiors.

But the main thing is that he has chosen to be a competitor with established interests such as the American Rockefeller political dynastty most lately led by the deceased David Rockefeller. I don't know who is stepping up to carry on that vision of America. It is a vision I think is the more realistic threat to democracy. It would fit with the old commie notion of the Bourgeoise, except I know nobody with any money really believes in Marxism, however marvelously the basic notions work in political manipulations.

My frfiend, a straightforward real believer in Marxism, bemoans all the State Capitalist phony Marxists around the world including multibillionaires like Putin and Xi.

But stop trying to rewrite the facts. I saw hours of various videos of the Capitol incursion. It was a mess. Unarmed civilians walking through open doors. But also there were a few score agitators, obviously not Trump people, with some equipment and bullhorns. They started at the back of Trump's crowd trying to get people to move with them. Only a few did. Most just went home.

I get tdired of the same lies over and over again, that's why I decided to do other stuff.

Trump didn't do anything HIllary or Obama, or any of the last ten democratic Presidential candidates haven't done. Complain about vote irregularities, ask for recounts, talk about what the EC should/could do. Take some issues to the courts. No person was prevented from doing their duty as they believed they should do. No authority was denied their proper jurisdiction.

I call out our Media as partisan for a political fiction.

And I really think I should just be done with delusional people and flat-out believers in lies.
 
I'll just say it one more time.

If Trump would have put all his money in a standard workplace type 401k in 1977 he would have had twice as much money as he had in 2016.

Trump's success was 100% the result of owning real estate in 1977 in NYC that he got from money his daddy gave him. Anything other than that he tried to do failed. Taj Mahal Casino, went wildly over budget, never lived up to the hype, majority of honest working people who built it didn't get paid in full by Trump, lived a short disappointing life and is now gone. Trump University? Trump Wine? Trump Steaks (ketchup not included)?

Oh wait, the billionaire was successful as the featured cast member of a ****** reality TV show. How many dozens of millions did he make doing that show?
 
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