Donald is about to go through some things...

[The Thriller]

See this is where we disagree. Main stream media can refute all they want. The problem is most news is not news, it’s propaganda for its political cronies. Fox, CNN etc…. All have an agenda. You just don’t like what I believe to be true. The only truth is your truth and all other truths are invalid. Truth is obviously in the eye of the beholder. This is why we can’t discuss issues. We all have our own truth and we hate the truth of those who appose us. I don’t believe most people are truly looking for what is actually true…. Just the truth of their tribal right or left leaning politics. This is why some believe we are in a civil war already. It emboldens the crazies to be crazier. Leads to Jan 6 situations, riots, etc….

Um. Okay. So you reject objective truth. Alrighty. But that’s not my fault, that’s yours.

You didn’t need to rely on the mainstream media to learn that the lies you posted had been debunked. The National Archives literally sent out a statement refuting them. The statement was then magnified through social media and mainstream news outlets. But I guess if you reject objective truth, then the truth is whatever you want it to be? So in your head, the National Archives didn’t debunk the claim that Obama did exactly why Trump did, right? And then insinuate that I’m the reason why intelligent discussions are impossible?

So again, if you believe in what you say about truth in your post above, why claim that the inability to have a discussion with me is impossible? It seems that most people get their news from similar mainstream sources, like me. It’s you who has this outlier look on where to get news and what qualifies as truth, right? How does one have a discussion with someone who rejects that there exists objective truth?

 

[fishonjazz]

That's great Fish. You found an article who uses as their source a politician from the opposition party who has his degree in Latin Studies. You are not centrist like Avery. He has critical thinking skills and can weigh evidence from both sides while you've turned into the new The Thriller, vomiting up pages of the most biased content you can find.

Although I know it will be completely lost on you, others may find what actual legal scholars with fields of expertise in this exact issue and a published Supreme Court cases concerning a President's absolute power to determine what is or is not classified for the purposes of national defense have to say on the topic:

"if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information … it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues."
--Robert F. Turner, Associate Director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law

"[The president is not] obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed,and he can change those."
--Steven Aftergood, Director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy

"

The cool thing about this is that once trump lost the elction and biden was sworn in trump lost this magical ability to classify and or declassify or even reclassify something and biden gained that magical power. So if trump says he declassified everything then he would have to say he did it before biden was sworn in. Even then biden could simply say he reclassified everything the minute he was sworn in and trump is back to having classified information again. Its all pretty silly. It’s a logical mess. The system is not meant to be deployed in such an arbitrary fashion.
But this is trump we are talking about so of course he would do things improperly.


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[fishonjazz]

Manhattan DA’s criminal case against the Trump Organization and Allen Weisselberg can proceed, NYC judge rules

NEW YORK — A judge on Friday denied the Trump Organization’s motion to dismiss the Manhattan district attorney’s criminal tax fraud case against Donald Trump’s family real estate business and its long-serving chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg. Among a flurry of motions shot down by...

www.yahoo.com

The ruling marks the third legal blow Trump has faced this week.


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[fishonjazz]

Trump’s style of handling White House documents has been described by people who worked for him as slapdash and ad hoc, contributing to the debacle he now faces. He was known to rip up records that aides would have to retrieve from trash cans or from the floor and tape back together, according to former aides and multiple reports.

“It worried people all the time,” John Bolton, one of Trump’s former national security advisers, recalled in an interview.

“He’d have no awareness,” this person said. “When he was done with a piece of paper, he’d rip it up and throw it on the ground. That was his way of saying he’s done … [but] the narrative [that] he was ripping up documents like he was his own personal shredding machine is not accurate — he’d rip it in half, not usually into a thousand pieces.”

When John Kelly became White House chief of staff in the summer of 2017, he said he would remind Trump about the importance of abiding by the Presidential Records Act. A newcomer to public office who was accustomed to running his business his own way, Trump chafed under the regimen, Kelly said.

“When I got there,” said Kelly, a retired four-star Marine Corps general, the staff secretary was “taking stuff out of the trash cans and taping it back together. That continued while I was there.”

Trump seemed especially fond of his correspondence from Kim Jong Un. Bolton, in an interview, mentioned a letter that Trump had gotten from the North Korean leader and said that “John Kelly took it from him and we put it back in the right place.” (Kelly confirmed the account). “We gave Trump a copy of it back. He had a habit of taking stuff and you’d never see it again.”

Trump seemed especially fond of his correspondence from Kim. Bolton, in an interview, mentioned a letter that Trump had gotten from the North Korean leader and said that “John Kelly took it from him and we put it back in the right place.” (Kelly confirmed the account). “We gave Trump a copy of it back. He had a habit of taking stuff and you’d never see it again.”


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[The Thriller]

The cool thing about this is that once trump lost the elction and biden was sworn in trump lost this magical ability to classify and or declassify or even reclassify something and biden gained that magical power. So if trump says he declassified everything then he would have to say he did it before biden was sworn in. Even then biden could simply say he reclassified everything the minute he was sworn in and trump is back to having classified information again. Its all pretty silly. It’s a logical mess. The system is not meant to be deployed in such an arbitrary fashion.
But this is trump we are talking about so of course he would do things improperly.


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The office is bigger than you, me, or Trump. As soon as Jan 20 hit, Trump lost his ability to classify and de-classify things. The ability to do so was granted to his office by the American people. But then the America people decided that someone else should occupy that office. President Biden currently holds this office and he told will lose this ability and privilege either in Jan 2025 or January 2029.

Even right now, we’re getting stuck in the weeds. Whether it was classified or de-classified isn’t the issue. Trump didn’t follow the process to keep those documents. Documents deemed by our government to be detrimental to our national security. Sorry, but the national security of this country is bigger than trump.

And that’s the fundamental difference between us and Trumpers. For most of America, the country’s well-being is more important than the man, Trump. But for 30-40 percent of this authoritarian cult that lives vicariously through Trump, Trump is more important than the well-being of the country. The country exists to serve Trump.

 

[The Thriller]

LOL

Fox n Friends apparently forgot what happened to Nixon


View: https://twitter.com/mmfa/status/1558840035595657220?s=21&t=hBi9scY395BvCw9cVe59pg

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The cool thing about this is that once trump lost the elction and biden was sworn in trump lost this magical ability to classify and or declassify or even reclassify something and biden gained that magical power. So if trump says he declassified everything then he would have to say he did it before biden was sworn in. Even then biden could simply say he reclassified everything the minute he was sworn in and trump is back to having classified information again. Its all pretty silly. It’s a logical mess.

There is no mess at all. You are trying to make a mess to distract from how straight forward this actually is.

Trump said he declassified all of what he ordered sent to Mar-o-Lago when he was President and he had absolute power to have done exactly that. There is a witness who said he was there when Trump declassified those documents but even if there wasn't a witness our justice system gives the presumption of innocence to the accused. It is up to law enforcement to prove Trump did not declassify the material which is essentially impossible to prove. Biden could have reclassified everything but Biden would have to prove that he did because Trump, as the accused, still has the presumption of innocence putting the burden of proof on the accusers. The bigger problem with that idea is Biden claiming ignorance over all of it which wouldn't be the case if he had ordered it all reclassified.

The unassailable facts are:

1`- The US President has absolute power to declassify anything at any time.
2 - The accused has the presumption of innocence in our justice system.

There are at least a half dozen other problems with what the FBI did but if you can't explain your way around the above two facts, and you cannot, there is no need to go beyond that.

 

[One Brow]

You mean like the docs taken by Obama, Bush, Clinton etc….

They don't exist. All the documents were turned over to the National Archives by these former Presidents.

Really do some research as to what former presidents have taken from office and the number of unredacted and redacted files they possess.

I suggest you do some research on who handles those documents.

 

[One Brow]

The far left and far right shouldn’t be running the show.

I don't like Biden. However, to cast him as "far left" is ludicrous. He's firmly in the center.

 

[The Thriller]

They don't exist. All the documents were turned over to the National Archives by these former Presidents.


I suggest you do some research on who handles those documents.

The truth is whatever you want it to be. facts, evidence, and objective truth don’t exist. If Ted wants to believe that Obama to have stolen documents, just like Trump, then he’ll decide to believe in that and ignore all reporting that disrupts his belief system. See below:

See this is where we disagree. Main stream media can refute all they want. The problem is most news is not news, it’s propaganda for its political cronies. Fox, CNN etc…. All have an agenda. You just don’t like what I believe to be true. The only truth is your truth and all other truths are invalid. Truth is obviously in the eye of the beholder. This is why we can’t discuss issues. We all have our own truth and we hate the truth of those who appose us. I don’t believe most people are truly looking for what is actually true…. Just the truth of their tribal right or left leaning politics. This is why some believe we are in a civil war already. It emboldens the crazies to be crazier. Leads to Jan 6 situations, riots, etc….

 

[One Brow]

The unassailable facts are:

1`- The US President has absolute power to declassify anything at any time.
2 - The accused has the presumption of innocence in our justice system.

3 - Regardless of classification, every former President is by law expected to turn all the documents over to the National Archives, and Trump did not. Classification status is irrelevant.

 

[One Brow]

The truth is whatever you want it to be. facts, evidence, and objective truth don’t exist.

@Just Ted is acting like 99% of humanity, including some posts from me and some from you. We all have trouble changing our allegiances and opinions.

 

[fishonjazz]

There is no mess at all. You are trying to make a mess to distract from how straight forward this actually is.

Trump said he declassified all of what he ordered sent to Mar-o-Lago when he was President and he had absolute power to have done exactly that. There is a witness who said he was there when Trump declassified those documents but even if there wasn't a witness our justice system gives the presumption of innocence to the accused. It is up to law enforcement to prove Trump did not declassify the material which is essentially impossible to prove. Biden could have reclassified everything but Biden would have to prove that he did because Trump, as the accused, still has the presumption of innocence putting the burden of proof on the accusers. The bigger problem with that idea is Biden claiming ignorance over all of it which wouldn't be the case if he had ordered it all reclassified.

The unassailable facts are:

1`- The US President has absolute power to declassify anything at any time.
2 - The accused has the presumption of innocence in our justice system.

There are at least a half dozen other problems with what the FBI did but if you can't explain your way around the above two facts, and you cannot, there is no need to go beyond that.

You are conveniently forgetting that the classification status doesnt matter for what he is being investigated for.

You should add that to your list of unassailable facts. (We know you wont though)


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[Red]

The unassailable facts are:

1`- The US President has absolute power to declassify anything at any time.
2 - The accused has the presumption of innocence in our justice system.

I’m not sure if the following applies, as I am not sure if in fact it has been confirmed as yet that documents pertaining to nuclear weapons were in fact found at Mar-a-Lago, as the Washington Post originally reported. But, if so, this may apply:


View: https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/why-trump-can-t-declassify-documents-about-nuclear-weapons-145999941911

 

[The Thriller]

@Just Ted is acting like 99% of humanity, including some posts from me and some from you. We all have trouble changing our allegiances and opinions.

I think that’s unfair and inaccurate. When we are corrected, we usually react in a better manner. Often I’ve learned from other posters here and have thanked them for correcting me.

While no one enjoys being corrected, there’s a difference between being corrected and taking that correction appropriately vs lashing out and accusing others of being unable to converse in a rational and respectful manner. When Fish asked him for evidence to support his claim, he lashed out at Fish. When he claimed that Trump merely did that which Obama had done (keeping documents) and I provided him with the National Archives statement, he once again, lashed out.

I don’t believe 99 percent of humanity lashes out when they’re asked to provide evidence or provided better more accurate information. I would hope that this would prompt Ted to pursue some introspection. His inability to carry on an evidence based rational conversation about politics might not be the fault of others but with himself. A habit that can be corrected if he so desires.

 

[Red]

What the government’s former top classified records overseer sees in the Mar-a-Lago search

In a dramatic step, agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation executed a sealed search warrant on Monday at Mar-a-Lago, the Florida property and residence of former president Donald Trump. Hear more from Steve Reilly about this story: Initial reports indicated the search targeted...

www.grid.news

G: Just to clarify, because there seems to be some confusion about this: Can a former president declassify records after leaving office?

BL: Quite frankly, there’s a little bit of confusion even as to what authority an incumbent president has. I’ve seen it referenced in some quarters that presidents have unilateral authority to declassify information at will or even at whim. That’s not even accurate.

There is some classified information that is classified not necessarily pursuant to the President’s Article Two constitutional authority as commander in chief and chief official responsible for foreign relations. And the most notable example of that would be information relating to nuclear weapons, atomic energy — that information is protected by virtue of statute. There is other information that’s protected by virtue of statute, for example, the identity of covert U.S. intelligence operatives. That sort of information and other sensitive intelligence sources and methods are protected pursuant to law, not necessarily protected pursuant to the president’s unilateral classification authority. And likewise, there’s some information that we receive from foreign governments that is protected pursuant to international treaty or bilateral treaties, that likewise carry the force of law.

So even an incumbent president does not have total, unfettered authority to declare information unclassified at will. Certainly, a former president has no authority to declassify any sort of information.

 

[One Brow]

I think that’s unfair and inaccurate. When we are corrected, we usually react in a better manner. Often I’ve learned from other posters here and have thanked them for correcting me.

You react well to corrections from people that you have non-antagonistic relationships with. Less well when you have an antagonistic relationship. I've seen this. This is normal and human.

When Fish asked him for evidence to support his claim, he lashed out at Fish.

I find you characterization of that post unsupported, considering @fishonjazz could have just done a simple web search, as I did.

When he claimed that Trump merely did that which Obama had done (keeping documents) and I provided him with the National Archives statement, he once again, lashed out.

That I agree with.

I don’t believe 99 percent of humanity lashes out when they’re asked to provide evidence or provided better more accurate information.

If anything, 99% is an underestimate.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You are conveniently forgetting that the classification status doesnt matter for what he is being investigated for.

You should add that to your list of unassailable facts. (We know you wont though)

I'm very aware of what he is being investigated for and it is one of the most vague, "we'll put you in prison for the rest of your life because we don't like you" laws on the books. It is the Espionage Act. When using this same law to prosecute Julian Assange, the indictment was for "conspiracy to obtain national defense information" and "obtaining national defense information" with no definition given for what constitutes "national defense information".

In prosecuting Trump or anyone else they don't like under the Espionage Act, the powers that be could consider anything, birthday menus, that stupid weather map Trump put the Sharpie line on, classified, unclassified, absolutely anything they want to be "national defense information" and convict him on the equivalent of treason merely for possessing whatever they designated "national defense information". The trial would all be behind closed doors because of the national security designation. The prosecutors could show the Sharpied weather map now labeled as "national defense critical" in the secret trial while anonymous sources could leak a fake story to the press the prosecution showed nuclear weapons blueprints and phone records to Chinese spies.

I don't trust Trump as far as I can throw him but I trust the FBI and the DOJ significantly less, especially when it comes to times where they cite vaguely defined yet draconian laws like the Espionage Act. It also doesn't sit well with me that people on your side of the political divide are calling for people they disagree with politically to be publicly executed in the name of national unity.


View: https://twitter.com/BoundingComics/status/1558291045158457346


..And if sacrificing the ex-president in a public execution doesn't sufficiently bring about the healing of America, then how many more should be put to death?

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't like Biden. However, to cast him as "far left" is ludicrous. He's firmly in the center.

Eh, he's left of center, no doubt. But not that much. There are far more crazies out there that make him look straight up moderate.

 

[One Brow]

Eh, he's left of center, no doubt. But not that much. There are far more crazies out there that make him look straight up moderate.

Maybe he's moved left over the years, maybe it's just his team.