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Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

Scramantha said:
Well, I'm over it. They'll finger it out.

Meanwhile, I thought I was g@y but I'm fully turned on by this lady tennis match on TV. It's Serena vs Estonia nerd babe. Any else watching this? Sexiest event of the year. Got me rethinking myself at age 40.

Oh, for the prediction portion I think the deal goes down tomorrow.

Still prolly g@y though.
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Serena and Kontaveit really? I mean I’d understand it if you were watching the Layla Fernandez, Ludmilla Samsonova match or something? I hate to say it but if you’re attracted to Serena you probably are gay.
 
Hekate said:
Ugh, I hate half-assed tanks. That can't be Jazz's plan. If we can't tank around Wemby or Scoot, the window becomes much shorter.

Look at how Dallas is scrambling around Doncic because he was so good so quick or Pels bumbling because they feared Zion would ask out in year 2.
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To be fair, the Jazz are planning on trading two prime all-stars plus a bunch of other assets before their tank. They aren't starting at bone dry zero. They look to have at least 2 and sometimes 3 first round picks every year for the next 7 or 8 years. It is going to be really hard to suck on purpose if two or three of our first and second year picks hit, especially if you get a head start with some of the Knick players (which I am still not sold on BTW.) Philly took a while, but they made some really bad picks along the way and didn't really start where we are.
Additionally, I feel like if the Jazz suck for 4 or 5 years, there will be a tremendous cost in fan support. Jazz fans are rabid because the Jazz win. Imagine what Ute football crowds would look like after 4 consecutive 3 win seasons. There has to be hope. This board, who are probably the most resilient of fans, barely survived the Corbin era. Jazz aren't pulling a 5 year tank.

Dallas screwed up because they wasted assets on Porzingis and now they let Brunson go for nothing. Their result wasn't inevitable.
 
Scramantha said:
Well, I'm over it. They'll finger it out.

Meanwhile, I thought I was g@y but I'm fully turned on by this lady tennis match on TV. It's Serena vs Estonia nerd babe. Any else watching this? Sexiest event of the year. Got me rethinking myself at age 40.

Oh, for the prediction portion I think the deal goes down tomorrow.

Still prolly g@y though.
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I wish could have watched the match live, seems like it was a good one.
 
Hekate said:
Ugh, I hate half-assed tanks. That can't be Jazz's plan. If we can't tank around Wemby or Scoot, the window becomes much shorter.

Look at how Dallas is scrambling around Doncic because he was so good so quick or Pels bumbling because they feared Zion would ask out in year 2.
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Pelicans model seems pretty good to me, idk

Jazz can do a short tank if they get lucky off the bat. The Minnesota assets allow them to move differently. I still think they can do a short tank rebuild around Don, but it's probably too messy with the way he seems to be out on the Jazz as a franchise.
 
Hekate said:
I was talking in relation to Mr. Jones' post.
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I think TJ was just saying they aren't going to try and be bad forever. I think there are a million shades of what that is supposed to mean, so you can interpret it how you will. The reality is that it will take all star level talent to be competitive again. It will take awhile to draft and develop those stars.
 
framer said:
To be fair, the Jazz are planning on trading two prime all-stars plus a bunch of other assets before their tank. They aren't starting at bone dry zero. They look to have at least 2 and sometimes 3 first round picks every year for the next 7 or 8 years. It is going to be really hard to suck on purpose if two or three of our first and second year picks hit, especially if you get a head start with some of the Knick players (which I am still not sold on BTW.) Philly took a while, but they made some really bad picks along the way and didn't really start where we are.
Additionally, I feel like if the Jazz suck for 4 or 5 years, there will be a tremendous cost in fan support. Jazz fans are rabid because the Jazz win. Imagine what Ute football crowds would look like after 4 consecutive 3 win seasons. There has to be hope. This board, who are probably the most resilient of fans, barely survived the Corbin era. Jazz aren't pulling a 5 year tank.

Dallas screwed up because they wasted assets on Porzingis and now they let Brunson go for nothing. Their result wasn't inevitable.
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To be fair Porzingis simply did not play up to his potential. Partly injury and partly that his high level play in NY was fools gold. If he could have maintained the trajectory he was on in new York then pairing him with Doncic could have been one for the ages. It isn't screwing up just because the player doesn't do what he has shown he can do. That's just unfortunate. Like look at us and Conley. He never came even close to being Memphis Mike, but that was what we were banking on. If he had maybe we wouldn't be where we are right now moving on from the best team we had since Stockton and Malone in a flurry of picks and 3rd tier players. Yeah many of us saw the Mike move as a huge mistake but what the team was looking for could have still netted us some real success if he had panned out. Same with Doncic and Porzingis.
 
kabenac said:
At this point I would do Barrett, 3 protected, 1 unprotected, Toppin and IQ.

OR

Barrett, Toppin, IQ, 2 protected, 2 unprotected, and 3-4 2nds.
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Seconds are worthless, especially when you have tons and tons of firsts - We already have 3 1sts in next years' draft. With the Mitchell trade we are very likely to collect at least 2 more. You just cannot roster all those players after some point... We can have 5 1sts and 2 seconds next year. There is diminishing return to picks, especially ones that are not premier picks...

Well... I guess we can always sell them for 1-3M a pick....
 
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Tony Jones said:
The Jazz want him to build. Jake is really good so I don’t doubt what he’s hearing. But I think there is this sentiment around the league that the Jazz are aiming for this prolonged rebuild and that’s just not the case. They know they are not going to be good this season, but beyond that they are trying to open another window quickly. I’ve reported this repeatedly and every time I have it’s been met with real pushback. So now that it’s clear that the Jazz want Barrett back in this deal, I think other sources around the league are like “well they must want to flip him”, which is where Jake and others are hearing from their sources. But never once in this whole offseason has a jazz source to me indicated that the front office wants a lengthy rebuild. The plan is to tear it down this season but try and get back as quickly as possible. That means getting Barrett and having something to build with. If the Jazz get Barrett and toppin, that’s a nice start. As a Knicks fan, I’m super high on toppin. I think he has potential to be a star if he comes to the Jazz
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With all due respect, Tony, no team is ever going to tell reporters or its fanbase - "you know what? get ready for 5 years of sucking. And while we have you on the phone, do you want to renew your season tickets for the next... 3 years?"

No team plans for long rebuilds. But once you tear down a team, you really don't know how long it would take. It might take 1-2 seasons like Memphis' rebuild went... or it might go for a decade. When you are left with bare bones and picks there is huge level of uncertainty and luck involved in how that rebuild goes. Do you get the 1st pick or the 5th? And if you get the 1st is it a year with premier talent or is Antony Bennett waiting for you? And hell, even if you get a premier talent - does he get injured before he's even played a minute for your team(Chet?)? You never know how well or badly a tear down will go and RJ Barrett alone is not changing that. You need cohesive roster with quality players all around and probably with at least 2 stars in order to be really competitive again. There is no way in hell a team can guarantee that in a year or two you will be able to go from RJ Barrett + picks into a contender. And that's why the Knicks were actually willing to give up Barrett... +picks in order to improve their chances.
 
stitches said:
Seconds are worthless, especially when you have tons and tons of firsts - We already have 3 1sts in next years' draft. With the Mitchell trade we are very likely to collect at least 2 more. You just cannot roster all those players after some point... We can have 5 1sts and 2 seconds next year. There is diminishing return to picks, especially ones that are not premier picks...

Well... I guess we can sell always them for 1-3M a pick....
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Seconds have use to grease a trade to equal out a slight value imbalance. But to a rebuilding team, I agree there's little value beyond that.

As far as picks, Utah's focus needs to be on unprotected (preferred) or lightly protected picks as a primary consideration. To be honest, the Laker picks, assuming they'd be unprotected, would have a wicked trade value simply because of how bad the Lakers have the potential to be in the back-half of the decade. Granted, they can sign FAs and such, but as we've seen, that hardly equates to playoff success.

I'm still all for tearing it down to the foundations, get some young talent, see what we have to work with, then rebuild based around that. I just hope a Mitchell deal gets done before training camp.
 
Tony Jones said:
The Jazz want him to build. Jake is really good so I don’t doubt what he’s hearing. But I think there is this sentiment around the league that the Jazz are aiming for this prolonged rebuild and that’s just not the case. They know they are not going to be good this season, but beyond that they are trying to open another window quickly. I’ve reported this repeatedly and every time I have it’s been met with real pushback. So now that it’s clear that the Jazz want Barrett back in this deal, I think other sources around the league are like “well they must want to flip him”, which is where Jake and others are hearing from their sources. But never once in this whole offseason has a jazz source to me indicated that the front office wants a lengthy rebuild. The plan is to tear it down this season but try and get back as quickly as possible. That means getting Barrett and having something to build with. If the Jazz get Barrett and toppin, that’s a nice start. As a Knicks fan, I’m super high on toppin. I think he has potential to be a star if he comes to the Jazz
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With all due respect, it's more likely a lengthy rebuild is in the cards and I'm sure the FO realizes it. Just no one is saying it. Ticket sales and all that. You don't just trade your two All-NBA caliber players and surrounding core and expect to be back in a minute. I don't really recall an instance where that's worked beyond Memphis.

The Jazz will probably get the Gobert-package in return for Don. 3 Unps, 1 swap, 1 or 2 protected, a young player (Toppin?), and filler. That seems to be the middle ground in all these rumors and games between the two Rose and Ainge.
 
I hate to say it, but at this point, I would to just semi-settle on whatever to just get a deal done and get the rebuild rolling.
I don't think that prolonging this into the season is a good idea. That includes trading the other vets, as well.
TBH, I will still be an ardent fan even if we are terrible this year. That's why it is good to have the NFL starting as a distraction.
Also, it may be a good idea to have a second team to root for, preferably in the East, so that this season isn't completely a waste.
 
stitches said:
With all due respect, Tony, no team is ever going to tell reporters or its fanbase - "you know what? get ready for 5 years of sucking. And while we have you on the phone, do you want to renew your season tickets for the next... 3 years?"

No team plans for long rebuilds. But once you tear down a team, you really don't know how long it would take. It might take 1-2 seasons like Memphis' rebuild went... or it might go for a decade. When you are left with bare bones and picks there is huge level of uncertainty and luck involved in how that rebuild goes. Do you get the 1st pick or the 5th? And if you get the 1st is it a year with premier talent or is Antony Bennett waiting for you? And hell, even if you get a premier talent - does he get injured before he's even played a minute for your team(Chet?)? You never know how well or badly a tear down will go and RJ Barrett alone is not changing that. You need cohesive roster with quality players all around and probably with at least 2 stars in order to be really competitive again. There is no way in hell a team can guarantee that in a year or two you will be able to go from RJ Barrett + picks into a contender. And that's why the Knicks were actually willing to give up Barrett... +picks in order to improve their chances.
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Right but if a team acts somewhat normally a return to play in status can happen in 2 years… couple years in the lotto can be the plan and if there is a bump in the road it gets prolonged. Starting with one building block, a **** ton of other picks, and then planning to fill in with cap space is a solid plan. I believe in tanking and you need a fair amount of luck… the super prolonged tanks may not be the best route. With Chet out I’m not sure how long the OKC tank lasts… but at some point SGA asks out if they don’t stop.

Not sure what the right answers are but it’s conceivable that the tank portion lasts 2 years and the pieces collected along the way give the team higher upside than it had with the last iteration.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Right but if a team acts somewhat normally a return to play in status can happen in 2 years… couple years in the lotto can be the plan and if there is a bump in the road it gets prolonged. Starting with one building block, a **** ton of other picks, and then planning to fill in with cap space is a solid plan. I believe in tanking and you need a fair amount of luck… the super prolonged tanks may not be the best route. With Chet out I’m not sure how long the OKC tank lasts… but at some point SGA asks out if they don’t stop.

Not sure what the right answers are but it’s conceivable that the tank portion lasts 2 years and the pieces collected along the way give the team higher upside than it had with the last iteration.
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To be fair with this, Memphis was incredibly smart with the periphery of the build in getting the right pieces to fill around Ja and being flexible around it. But they still needed luck to get Ja. Utah can get the right players in place, but we need luck for that core initial piece. Hence getting all the UNps we can and calling it good for this season.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I wish could have watched the match live, seems like it was a good one.
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It seems Aussie legend Rennae Stubbs has taken on coaching duties and unlocked the latent “Beast Mode” Serena again! After knocking off the 2 seed and looking like Vintage Serena, #24 is in reach and she’s already walking back her retirement announcement.
 
Release the Kraken said:
It seems Aussie legend Rennae Stubbs has taken on coaching duties and unlocked the latent “Beast Mode” Serena again! After knocking off the 2 seed and looking like Vintage Serena, #24 is in reach and she’s already walking back her retirement announcement.
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Serena can do whatever Serena wants to do, but the big part of the intrigue is being able to watch her last match/tournament. To me it just feels like she's digging down deep wanting to go out on top.
 
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