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The *OFFICIAL* Russia Is About To Invade Ukraine Thread

You can tell who’s consuming shallow right wing propaganda. The Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1940s of course included Nazis. Think about it from a Ukrainian’s perspective in 1941, who was seen as the greatest mass murderer of the time? Stalin. Who was seen as preventing you from gaining national sovereignty? The USSR. If you survived the horrific Holodomor, you would’ve seen 5 million fellow countrymen starved to death on purpose by Stalin.

So At the time, of course Nazis were seen by nationalists as the ticket for Ukrainians to overthrow the murderous soviet regime and gain national sovereignty. Like the Revolutionary war, Americans didn’t turn down French support because they too had a king. The enemy at hand was George III and British dominance over the colonies.

Obviously, the Nazis didn’t care about Ukrainian independence. So that ooor nation suffered twice, both from Nazi domination and then Soviet retribution. And now they’re suffering again by Putin’s invasion. And to rub salt in the wound, right wing Americans are supporting Putin!

The giveaway here are right wing posters denouncing Ukrainian Nazis from the 1940s while supporting right wing authoritarians like Trump, Orban, and Putin. Are they really against the racism, misogyny, and authoritarianism of right wing extremists? Or are they merely smearing current Ukrainian resistance by labeling them fascists and Nazis?

Framed a different way:

Why do you dislike Ukrainian Nazis but support current right wing extremist groups? Is it because the nationalist Ukrainians wanted independence and didn’t a want to crush liberal democracy?
 
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You can tell who’s consuming shallow right wing propaganda. The Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1940s of course included Nazis. Think about it from a Ukrainian’s perspective in 1941, who was seen as the greatest mass murderer of the time? Stalin. Who was seen as preventing you from gaining national sovereignty? The USSR. If you survived the horrific Holodomor, you would’ve seen 5 million fellow countrymen starved to death on purpose by Stalin.

So At the time, of course Nazis were seen by nationalists as the ticket for Ukrainians to overthrow the murderous soviet regime and gain national sovereignty. Like the Revolutionary war, Americans didn’t turn down French support because they too had a king. The enemy at hand was George III and British dominance over the colonies.

Obviously, the Nazis didn’t care about Ukrainian independence. So that ooor nation suffered twice, both from Nazi domination and then Soviet retribution. And now they’re suffering again by Putin’s invasion. And to rub salt in the wound, right wing Americans are supporting Putin!

The giveaway here are right wing posters denouncing Ukrainian Nazis from the 1940s while supporting right wing authoritarians like Trump, Orban, and Putin. Are they really against the racism, misogyny, and authoritarianism of right wing extremists? Or are they merely smearing current Ukrainian resistance by labeling them fascists and Nazis?

Framed a different way:

Why do you dislike Ukrainian Nazis but support current right wing extremist groups? Is it because the nationalist Ukrainians wanted independence and didn’t a want to crush liberal democracy?
Here’s an even simpler question. Why are you honoring and defending nazis from the 40’s? Why are you on board with funding and supporting current nazis in Ukraine? Apparently due to your left wing propaganda you’re in a position where you can’t denounce any nazis…. Hmmm.
 
Here’s an even simpler question. Why are you honoring and defending nazis from the 40’s? Why are you on board with funding and supporting current nazis in Ukraine? Apparently due to your left wing propaganda you’re in a position where you can’t denounce any nazis…. Hmmm.
Because at the time, he was known for being a Ukrainian nationalist and fighting against the red army. Did you read my last post? The Ukrainian nationalist movement was a complicated movement. Especially if you were to look through the eyes of a Ukrainian that had lived through Holodomor; Something you video game groypers have no concept of. To be frank, I don’t think you have the maturity or intellectual curiosity to debate this issue. Eastern Europe is a complicated place. Throughout the 21st century you saw fascists, communists, kings, and democrats battle over it. If you’re not comfortable seeing people as gray instead of black or white, then you shouldn’t be discussing this topic.

Why do you denounce the Nazis yet support Trump?
 
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Because at the time, he was known for being a Ukrainian nationalist and fighting against the red army. Did you read my last post? The Ukrainian nationalist movement was a complicated movement. Especially if you were to look through the eyes of a Ukrainian that had lived through Holodomor; Something you video game groypers have no concept of. To be frank, I don’t think you have the maturity or intellectual curiosity to debate this issue. Eastern Europe is a complicated place. Throughout the 21st century you saw fascists, communists, kings, and democrats battle over it. If you’re not comfortable seeing people as gray instead of black or white, then you shouldn’t be discussing this topic.

Why do you denounce the Nazis yet support Trump?
So Nazis fall into this grey area for you then? Are you saying "there were good people on both sides"?
Why is it that you view Trump and his supporters as just black and white? Is Trump the only political group that doesn't deserve to be seen through this mature and intellectual lens of yours?
 
The favorite adjective to describe the Ukraine war "unprovoked" totally debunked by the NATO secretary general

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">As the US regime continues to insist that Russia&#39;s invasion of Ukraine was &quot;unprovoked,&quot; even NATO&#39;s Secretary-General admits NATO expansion provoked it.<br><br>Just like George Kennan, CIA director William Burns, and other US foreign policy officials. <a href="https://t.co/XGDWdCjWhp">pic.twitter.com/XGDWdCjWhp</a></p>&mdash; Libertarian Party (@LPNational) <a href="
View: https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1706771242009731521?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">September 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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So Nazis fall into this grey area for you then? Are you saying "there were good people on both sides"?
Why is it that you view Trump and his supporters as just black and white? Is Trump the only political group that doesn't deserve to be seen through this mature and intellectual lens of yours?
Because Ukrainian nationalism that had included some nazis was about overthrowing Soviet rule, not about conquering eastern lands for German living space. The Nazis were seen as a useful tool that could defeat the Soviets that had already killed millions of their countrymen a decade prior. Like use your head. Read a book about this subject before you respond any further. It truly is annoying to see MAGA posters just puke all over these boards so confident in their opinions but so lacking in just basic background info on subjects.

I give no such grace to Trump supporters because they haven’t come close to facing anything like the Holodomor. In fact, it’s the lack of suffering and the overburdening of wealth and convenience that powers MAGA. The absence of hardship allows them to be angry at perceived cultural and political slights while Ukrainians were and are fighting for their very survival.

To summarize: There’s a difference between seeing 5 million of your countrymen systemically starved and killed off and seeing a black man win the White House (how dare this happen America sucks it’s leaving us behind now we need to MAGA).

Like I said, I don’t think you have the intellectual curiosity to discuss the Ukrainian nationalist movement. Or current right wing movements in western democracies.
 
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Because Ukrainian nationalism that had included some nazis was about overthrowing Soviet rule, not about conquering eastern lands for German living space. Like use your head. Read a book about this subject before you respond any further.

I give no such grace to Trump supporters because they haven’t come close to facing anything like the Holodomor. In fact, it’s the lack of suffering and the overburdening of wealth and convenience that powers MAGA. The absence of hardship allows them to be angry at perceived cultural and political slights while Ukrainians were and are fighting for their very survival.

To summarize: There’s a difference between seeing 5 million of your countrymen systemically starved and killed off and seeing a black man win the White House (how dare this happen America sucks it’s leaving us behind now we need to MAGA).

Like I said, I don’t think you have the intellectual curiosity to discuss the Ukrainian nationalist movement. Or current right wing movements in western democracies.
Thriller the Nazi sympathizer. It's yet another thing you have in common with Trump.
 
So Nazis fall into this grey area for you then? Are you saying "there were good people on both sides"?
There were vicious dictators bent on killing on both sides. Hitler didn't want to kill Ukrainians as an ethnic group, Stalin wanted to (or at least, made it seem that way). Do you go with the vicious, bloodthirsty killer who wants you dead or the vicious, bloodthirsty killer who is not interested in killing you (remaining neutral is a choice for the former)?
 
Thriller the Nazi sympathizer. It's yet another thing you have in common with Trump.
Nailed me.

Like I said before, you don’t have the maturity of intellectual curiosity to discuss this issue in an educated manner.

It’s nonsensical trolling like this, primarily from MAGA posters on this board, that has alienated many of us normal people away.
 
I’ve been called socialist, liberal, progressive, hopelessly moderate, an out of touch educator, union member, racist, Mormon, anti-Mormon, a troll, and now a Nazi sympathizer on this board. The internet sure is an amazing thing. I just wished the MAGA posters on this board would decide if I’m a liberal stooge or a Nazi sympathizer. Pick an argument and stick with it please.
 
The favorite adjective to describe the Ukraine war "unprovoked" totally debunked by the NATO secretary general

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">As the US regime continues to insist that Russia&#39;s invasion of Ukraine was &quot;unprovoked,&quot; even NATO&#39;s Secretary-General admits NATO expansion provoked it.<br><br>Just like George Kennan, CIA director William Burns, and other US foreign policy officials. <a href="https://t.co/XGDWdCjWhp">pic.twitter.com/XGDWdCjWhp</a></p>&mdash; Libertarian Party (@LPNational) <a href="
View: https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1706771242009731521?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">September 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He didn’t admit that nato expansion provoked the war. Quite the opposite. He was mocking Putin’s reasoning for the war and how it’s having the exact opposite effect. The western alliance has become strengthened and Russia weakened.

I have hope that someday MAGA will figure out why so many European countries want protection from Russia!

Are Libertarians okay?
IMG_2221.jpeg
 
Nailed me.

Like I said before, you don’t have the maturity of intellectual curiosity to discuss this issue in an educated manner.

It’s nonsensical trolling like this, primarily from MAGA posters on this board, that has alienated many of us normal people away.
Right… the intellectual maturity displayed by thriller the nazi sympathizer and his constant trump obsession. Orange man bad, tiny hands, funny hair, yada, yada- how could anyone keep up with this intellectual maturity?
 
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Right… the intellectual maturity displayed by thriller the nazi sympathizer and his constant trump obsession. Orange man bad, tiny hands, funny hair, yada, yada- how could anyone keep up with this intellectual maturity?
You could’ve just admitted that you didn’t know anything about the Ukrainian nationalist movement and that you didn’t actually watch the video that you posted.
 
You could’ve just admitted that you didn’t know anything about the Ukrainian nationalist movement and that you didn’t actually watch the video that you posted.
He's a troll, he can't admit anything.
 
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You can tell who’s consuming shallow right wing propaganda. The Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1940s of course included Nazis. Think about it from a Ukrainian’s perspective in 1941, who was seen as the greatest mass murderer of the time? Stalin. Who was seen as preventing you from gaining national sovereignty? The USSR. If you survived the horrific Holodomor, you would’ve seen 5 million fellow countrymen starved to death on purpose by Stalin.

So At the time, of course Nazis were seen by nationalists as the ticket for Ukrainians to overthrow the murderous soviet regime and gain national sovereignty. Like the Revolutionary war, Americans didn’t turn down French support because they too had a king. The enemy at hand was George III and British dominance over the colonies.

Obviously, the Nazis didn’t care about Ukrainian independence. So that ooor nation suffered twice, both from Nazi domination and then Soviet retribution. And now they’re suffering again by Putin’s invasion. And to rub salt in the wound, right wing Americans are supporting Putin!

Yeah, I gotta call bullsh*t on this. A whole lot of factual inaccuracies here. Let's start with geography. The 14th Waffen SS division was properly called 1st Galician. That should immediately give you a clue to where it was raised. Galicia was not part of the USSR before the war and Hunka himself was not born in the USSR. He was born in Poland, to which Galicia belonged between 1920 and 1939. The Ukrainians were discriminated against in Poland to some degree, but never physically, nor was there a famine in Poland in the 1930s. Hunka himself is not a Holodomor survivor, nor is he likely to have known anyone who was. He also wouldn't have heard of the famine as any news of it was suppressed within Soviet Union so that their own people didn't know about it, let alone people in another country. The SS division was raised among the Greek Catholics in what was formerly Poland, and not in Greek Orthodox parts of Ukraine that had been under USSR and that had been hit by the famine. Note that Bandera was also from Galicia, as were most members of his OUN.

The Germans didn't start creating Waffen SS units among non-Germanic people until they were on the defensive and had no means of conscripting more Germans. The first foreign Waffen SS division created under this plan was a Bosnian one in 1943. The Galician one was next and it was formed at the end of April 1943. Hunka is unlikely to have joined before the second half of the year because the recruitment didn't start until June. I should also take a moment to point out that this was a voluntary division. They were not conscripted or forced. Summer of 1943 is a long, long way from 1941. Sure, in June 1941, you might have reasonably believed that Nazis would help you throw off the Soviet yoke, but when the independence of Ukraine was proclaimed on June 30th in Lviv(again, in Galicia), the Germans reacted by having Gestapo arrest most of the leaders of OUN and send them to camps.

By the second half of 1943, it was pretty obvious what the Nazis were all about. Galicia is a big area and the western part is predominantly Polish. The eastern part, where Hunka himself was from, was majority Ukrainian. Majority, but not predominantly. A third of the population was either Jewish or Polish. By 1943, it would've been impossible to not notice that the Jewish tenth of the population had either been herded into ghettos, sent to extermination camps, or already slaughtered, and the the Polish quarter was persecuted, occasionally randomly killed, and at times sent to the Reich to work as slave labour. It also would've been impossible to notice that the Germans have also been committing all manner of atrocities against the Ukrainian population, and that they had absolutely no interest in any kind of self-government, let alone independence for Ukraine.

Hunka also claims that he joined the SS(so not some local Ukrainian unit that collaborated with the Nazis, but the actual Waffen SS) because he heeded the call of the Ukrainian National Committee to fight for a free Ukraine. The UNC was formed in March 1945(!). Now, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he got some minor details wrong. The UNC was formed as a result of a merger of several Ukrainian nationalist organizations, of which OUN was by far the largest. Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists did call for Ukrainians to work alongside Germany to defeat USSR, but as I noted above, that was in June 1941. As mentioned, the Nazis suppressed the organization within weeks, but not before OUN participated in the pogrom of Jews in Lviv. The underground remnants of the OUN would go on to for the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in 1942, and while they made some half-hearted attempts to portray themselves as fighting all external enemies including the Nazis, they mostly focused on perpetrating atrocities against Poles and Jews. In fact, their stated aim was to prevent Galicia and other parts of western Ukraine from returning to Poland after the end of the war.

Once the Galician 14th Waffen SS division was formed and properly trained and able to fight, it was 1944 already and the Soviet forces had retaken most of Ukraine. The Galician division was not sent to fight against the approaching Soviets but rather used to suppress Polish partisan uprisings. I shouldn't have to tell you that war crimes were committed against Polish peasantry during this and that entire villages were burned. The division then withdrew with the Germans and were then sent to Slovakia to quash the uprising there, before finally ending up in northern Slovenia where their task, once more, was to terrorize the local populace into stopping their resistance. They were incredibly lucky to find themselves in Austria in May 1945, where they surrendered to the Western Allies. They were sent to a POW camp in Italy and ended up eventually dispersing around the world. They were not repatriated to Poland or the USSR, despite the requests by those countries.

So, no, Hunka did not suffer through Holodomor, did not witness unspeakable horrors being done to his countrymen, did not volunteer to join the Waffen SS because he thought he was defending Ukraine, and he did not fight against the Red Army. He was an 18-year old adult who joined the SS despite knowing very well what they were about and what they had spent the last few years doing. It's not a grey area at all.
 
Yeah, I gotta call bullsh*t on this. A whole lot of factual inaccuracies here. Let's start with geography. The 14th Waffen SS division was properly called 1st Galician. That should immediately give you a clue to where it was raised. Galicia was not part of the USSR before the war and Hunka himself was not born in the USSR. He was born in Poland, to which Galicia belonged between 1920 and 1939. The Ukrainians were discriminated against in Poland to some degree, but never physically, nor was there a famine in Poland in the 1930s. Hunka himself is not a Holodomor survivor, nor is he likely to have known anyone who was. He also wouldn't have heard of the famine as any news of it was suppressed within Soviet Union so that their own people didn't know about it, let alone people in another country. The SS division was raised among the Greek Catholics in what was formerly Poland, and not in Greek Orthodox parts of Ukraine that had been under USSR and that had been hit by the famine. Note that Bandera was also from Galicia, as were most members of his OUN.

The Germans didn't start creating Waffen SS units among non-Germanic people until they were on the defensive and had no means of conscripting more Germans. The first foreign Waffen SS division created under this plan was a Bosnian one in 1943. The Galician one was next and it was formed at the end of April 1943. Hunka is unlikely to have joined before the second half of the year because the recruitment didn't start until June. I should also take a moment to point out that this was a voluntary division. They were not conscripted or forced. Summer of 1943 is a long, long way from 1941. Sure, in June 1941, you might have reasonably believed that Nazis would help you throw off the Soviet yoke, but when the independence of Ukraine was proclaimed on June 30th in Lviv(again, in Galicia), the Germans reacted by having Gestapo arrest most of the leaders of OUN and send them to camps.

By the second half of 1943, it was pretty obvious what the Nazis were all about. Galicia is a big area and the western part is predominantly Polish. The eastern part, where Hunka himself was from, was majority Ukrainian. Majority, but not predominantly. A third of the population was either Jewish or Polish. By 1943, it would've been impossible to not notice that the Jewish tenth of the population had either been herded into ghettos, sent to extermination camps, or already slaughtered, and the the Polish quarter was persecuted, occasionally randomly killed, and at times sent to the Reich to work as slave labour. It also would've been impossible to notice that the Germans have also been committing all manner of atrocities against the Ukrainian population, and that they had absolutely no interest in any kind of self-government, let alone independence for Ukraine.

Hunka also claims that he joined the SS(so not some local Ukrainian unit that collaborated with the Nazis, but the actual Waffen SS) because he heeded the call of the Ukrainian National Committee to fight for a free Ukraine. The UNC was formed in March 1945(!). Now, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he got some minor details wrong. The UNC was formed as a result of a merger of several Ukrainian nationalist organizations, of which OUN was by far the largest. Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists did call for Ukrainians to work alongside Germany to defeat USSR, but as I noted above, that was in June 1941. As mentioned, the Nazis suppressed the organization within weeks, but not before OUN participated in the pogrom of Jews in Lviv. The underground remnants of the OUN would go on to for the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in 1942, and while they made some half-hearted attempts to portray themselves as fighting all external enemies including the Nazis, they mostly focused on perpetrating atrocities against Poles and Jews. In fact, their stated aim was to prevent Galicia and other parts of western Ukraine from returning to Poland after the end of the war.

Once the Galician 14th Waffen SS division was formed and properly trained and able to fight, it was 1944 already and the Soviet forces had retaken most of Ukraine. The Galician division was not sent to fight against the approaching Soviets but rather used to suppress Polish partisan uprisings. I shouldn't have to tell you that war crimes were committed against Polish peasantry during this and that entire villages were burned. The division then withdrew with the Germans and were then sent to Slovakia to quash the uprising there, before finally ending up in northern Slovenia where their task, once more, was to terrorize the local populace into stopping their resistance. They were incredibly lucky to find themselves in Austria in May 1945, where they surrendered to the Western Allies. They were sent to a POW camp in Italy and ended up eventually dispersing around the world. They were not repatriated to Poland or the USSR, despite the requests by those countries.

So, no, Hunka did not suffer through Holodomor, did not witness unspeakable horrors being done to his countrymen, did not volunteer to join the Waffen SS because he thought he was defending Ukraine, and he did not fight against the Red Army. He was an 18-year old adult who joined the SS despite knowing very well what they were about and what they had spent the last few years doing. It's not a grey area at all.
At the time, the Canadian parliament thought he was a Ukrainian nationalist, a hero who fought against Soviet oppression.

Various far right groups existed prior to the German invasion of the Soviet Union and saw Nazis as a friend (the enemy of my enemy). There had been a desire among some for sovereignty for centuries but the Holodomor set the stage for groups looking for assistance from even Nazis. America did the same thing when we teamed up with Stalin to defeat Hitler. Ukrainian nationalists miscalculated as Nazis had no intention of helping them gain sovereignty. But then again, it wasn’t like they had great lives under Stalin.

So yes, this is a gray area.
 
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