Potential Trade Targets

[KqWIN]

I understand you can't just waive a wand and win now. Move the needle means to me... does this player take us from a borderline play in team to a certain play in spot? I don't think he does. I think our time to win is 2-3 years from now... will Cam be awesome then... probably but he'll be 30 and start the backside of his career as we are really prioritizing winning. Its not hard to understand the timing thing imo. Winning is not the number one priority right now. Does it mean you do no deals until you are a contender or only ones that guarantee contender status? Nope... but if you are putting in your premium assets like multiple unprotected picks... then the deal better do more than re-arrange the deck chairs on the the play-in titanic.

Explained above but his maximum value is the next 2-4 years when we aren't going all in for winning for half that period. I don't think he is an appreciating asset and the picks will increase as they get closer and may have a huge increase in value if the teams suck. We could play it safe or we can accept more risk and have a much higher ceiling for the asset. If you are trying to win the title you will need more upside. Doesn't mean you get wild and invest your 401k in lotto tickets but don't put your money in high interest savings accounts and expect to become a billionaire.


Its why you don't sell off players and assets at their lowest point because of impatience. Ride it out and give it time.

I don't think we'll get to that point in 2-3 years where it's time to win if we don't significantly upgrade our talent. Holding on to 2 future firsts and John Collins certainly isn't doing that either. It's not just going to happen organically. To me, this trade is extremely good for us not only because Cam is a very good player but it also knocks of JC's deal. That's a good thing if you're a team trying to accomplish anything in the winning direction. I just don't think we're in any position to reject good opportunities because we will hypothetically be in a position to win 2-3 years from now without them. Restricting ourselves to deals that will theoretically catapult us past some arbitrary made up line is not the way to go about imo.

This can only be seen as rearranging the deck chairs if you think JC and Cam are similar level players who bring similar on court value. I do not see that at all. Cam is a big upgrade and one worth 2+ first round picks IMO.

By your trade math here we should move 3 picks and Collins for Cam right?

Depends on the picks, but yeah there's a reason why I said 2+. You said one unprotected and one protected for Cam alone. I'm obviously higher on Cam, but lets go with your evaluation. Yeah, seems fair to add in another pick if you want to get of John's contract at the same time instead of an expiring contract.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yes it is. I mean... the existence of that "winning window" is certainly a popular view among the armchair GM gang, but the problem is that its not based on anything. It's just an arbitrary point in time people have invented. We don't know what the "plan" is.

Hell, 2 years from now is literally just around the corner. So we should suddenly put the pedal to the metal then, but without the quality vets we could acquire now?

I'm just not seeing Keyonte and Hendricks carrying this team to contender status in two years.

Its really not. If we had THEE GUY then go ahead and start assembling the stuff you need to put around that guy even if he isn't quite ready right now. If we had Chet, Paolo, Wemby then go ahead and start adding guys to supplement that dude. Lauri is nice but he's like a top 20-25 guy and has a blessing and a curse. Can do his work without the ball but also not a self creator so tough to ramp him up. If you have one all star you don't go acquiring glue guys with your prime trade assets. If Cam was 23-24 and I thought there was more to his game... then go get him. He's essentially at his peak in terms of trade value and play and it would be like 4th starter on a contender type stuff. If you have the #1 or #2 and #3 guys in place you might go get him now I guess. Getting Cam is just putting the cart before the horse.

Cam is also a player you can get away with getting the Kirkland brand version of what he brings. Simone is Kirkland Cam... If we flipped 2-3 prime picks and Collins for Cam how much better are we. Like it would push Simone to the bench and Kessler gets starter minutes but Yurt is like replacement level. Do we win 2-3 more games each year for a couple years? Is going from 35 wins to 38 wins all that critical? You start buying guys like Cam when you don't have reasonable replacements AND you are currently like a playoff team or contender. We are like 2 steps away from that right now.

With the window I was actually talking about the "worth it window" where value is a range. Is Cam worth 1.72 first round picks or is it more fluid than that? Right now they likely don't sell for 1 unprotected pick and JC... but that is what it would be worth to me with where we are. They might need 3 picks to do it... so the worth it windows don't align.

The league is so skilled and good. If we had a guy on Lauri's level then I'd say go ahead and pay full market on a guy like Cam I guess. For me to dip into picks I need to get someone that is a borderline AS that drives winning... not just a guy that supports winning.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think we'll get to that point in 2-3 years where it's time to win if we don't significantly upgrade our talent. Holding on to 2 future firsts and John Collins certainly isn't doing that either. It's not just going to happen organically. To me, this trade is extremely good for us not only because Cam is a very good player but it also knocks of JC's deal. That's a good thing if you're a team trying to accomplish anything in the winning direction. I just don't think we're in any position to reject good opportunities because we will hypothetically be in a position to win 2-3 years from now without them. Restricting ourselves to deals that will theoretically catapult us past some arbitrary made up line is not the way to go about imo.

This can only be seen as rearranging the deck chairs if you think JC and Cam are similar level players who bring similar on court value. I do not see that at all. Cam is a big upgrade and one worth 2+ first round picks IMO.



Depends on the picks, but yeah there's a reason why I said 2+. You said one unprotected and one protected for Cam alone. I'm obviously higher on Cam, but lets go with your evaluation. Yeah, seems fair to add in another pick if you want to get of John's contract at the same time instead of an expiring contract.

Gonna go ahead and just disagree and walk away from the convo because I can't reconcile with the idea that Cam an older player than John, on a similar contract, and who's individual production isn't much different is worth 2+ firsts and John is worth -1.

I am also of the opinion that there is a chance we go the other way and trade Lauri at some point. Its not the most likely path but its a possibility. You have to have top 10 player to win at the highest levels and the best place to find that is the top of the draft. We don't have that guy on the roster now... doesn't look like Key or Taylor will be that. At some point we may give up being the plucky play in team and go full process. There also may be an opportunity to go get a guy that will require 4-6 picks to be that guy for us... at that point I would lament paying half of that for Cam Johnson.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I also do think you can put the pedal to the medal and get a trade or two done when its obvious its winning time. Especially if you don't sell low on Collins or buy right now on guy like Johnson. Like if OKC wanted Cam Johnson right now they could make an offer to get him. Cam is good player but he's not completely unique and someone you couldn't find a reasonable facsimile for.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

HH wants Collins around so he can have a whipping boy

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Go compare Simone's numbers to Cam's. They are both 28... Simone will make 50% or less than what Cam does. I'm good.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

HH wants Collins around so he can have a whipping boy

As long as you still post I will never need a whipping boy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I would move Collins but I'm not gonna sell low and simultaneously pay market or above market for a glue guy. I invented hating the Collins trade... doesn't mean you have to double down because you made a bad deal doe.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yall are like my kids walking around target with $40 of birthday money. Gonna come home with some slime and takis and think it was a great use of resources since you have to spend it on something.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Cam is more in the Strus/Brooks/Bogey tier of player... those guys are types you can find and go get. He isn't a Derrick White level guy who is some two way stud who is difficult to find and they only come around once in a blue moon.

 

[infection]

I invented hating the Collins trade

I believe only TJF was behind that.

And FFS, how have we come to some consensus that Clarkson lands us a second rounder or two but Cam Thomas is a guy we’d want to grab with two first rounders. This is insane.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

We’re looking to move John Collins per Marc Stein.

Unless we throw in a first, looking to move Collins is all we will do

 

[KqWIN]

I believe only TJF was behind that.

And FFS, how have we come to some consensus that Clarkson lands us a second rounder or two but Cam Thomas is a guy we’d want to grab with two first rounders. This is insane.

Cam Johnson

 

[infection]

Cam Johnson

Tomato tomahto.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

bucks lost to rockets despite Gianni’s dropping 47/13. They need more bench production. Clarkson was linked to bucks before. Next game could be tryout?

I thought they were linked to sexton?

 

[Flc]

I disagree with the salary part of the equation and have outlined why its not the answer. I think they liked John the player and thought his value would increase. It may be decreasing but not significantly.

The main consideration now with John is salary and playing time. They have found a way to split John and Walker's time that I think makes sense. If Walker continues his strong play then you may need to change the minutes allocation but not a big issue. The salary isn't great an hurts some of our flexibility. He makes probably twice as much as he should but it likely doesn't prevent something big that we'd want to do.

Oh interesting - do you have a link to your thoughts on the matter? Would like to read it.

 

[KqWIN]

Yall are like my kids walking around target with $40 of birthday money. Gonna come home with some slime and takis and think it was a great use of resources since you have to spend it on something.

You’re arguing against something you made up yourself. No one said we have to trade these picks. You can agree to disagree, but please do not make up the reasoning as to why we would like the proposed deal up. Never ever did I or anyone else say we like the deal because we must spend those picks.

Cam Johnson is a good player and I like that deal because I think it’s good value to get him and dump Collins for 2-3 picks depending on the quality of those picks. It’s fair to disagree on how good he is or how he would impact the team, but this angle you’re pushing is one you made up to argue against.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Oh interesting - do you have a link to your thoughts on the matter? Would like to read it.

Basically if you want a trade placeholder there are way better ways to do it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I believe only TJF was behind that.

And FFS, how have we come to some consensus that Clarkson lands us a second rounder or two but Cam Thomas is a guy we’d want to grab with two first rounders. This is insane.

He's too old to file the patents so I invented it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yall are like my kids walking around target with $40 of birthday money. Gonna come home with some slime and takis and think it was a great use of resources since you have to spend it on something.

sounds like an excellent haul to me.