Game Thread Jan 18, 2024 07:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Thunder

[Bawse Dawg]

I literally mentioned him in the post, and how Raptors replaced DeRozan with him.

Kawhi in the championship year took 55% of his shots either from 3 or at the rim, and just 15% from floater and 19% from midrange.

SGA last year took 28% from floater and 25% from midrange, and this year the distribution is 24%/25%. He has increased his 3P volume and share, but unlike Kawhi he isnt a near 40% shooter from deep.

That 6% difference really isn't enough for me to think that SGA can't lead a team in the playoffs. Kawhi is known as a mid range killer, that's all I meant. SGA can get to the rim, and shoot threes too, and OKC has an awesome team around him.

You have the winning position since only one of 30 teams will win, so yea, it probably won't be OKC. But in no way do I think SGA's game holds them back in the playoffs.

 

[str8line]

I changed my mind, I DO have energy to complain about George.


LOL. Keyonte's defense in this game was an affront to basketball. I'm not mad at a rookie making inevitable rookie mistakes, but I can't stand low effort in a game like this. Standing around. Not putting a hand up when SGA is taking a shot 3 feet from you. Not running back.

IMO he earned himself a one game DNP-CD.

Care to revise your position?

 

[HermanG]

No. Shaq was regularly hacked far away from the basket. The point was to put him on the line, wait for him to miss (as he would regularly do), and then get the ball back for another offensive possession.

That **** wears you down. Basketball is a rhythm game, and taking a team out of its rhythm by making a terrible FT shooter march to the stripe again and again is a great way to get an advantage.

I thought the rules dont really make it valid these days. Isnt it so that if you hack-a-Kessler away from play thats just 1 FT by anyone + possession back, or if team fouls are full then its 1+2 FTs (2 by Kessler, 1 by whoever).

 

[TheGoldStandard]

Can you come up with a comp of a guy carrying his team anywhere in playoffs with midrange based game from past 15 years? I just cannot think of anyone.

I mean DeRozan is the best midrange guy I could think of since Kobe, but he hasnt really carried his teams in the postseason. Even that one year when Raptors went to the ECF with him he had pretty bad playoff stats and wasnt their top scorer for most games. Then after they traded him for a modern wing in Kawhi they immediately won the chip.

SGA is both special and elite for sure (and better than DeRozan has ever been), but I'm not 100% sold on him being #1 in a championship team just because he looks too much like a throwback player.

The Clippers knocked us out of the playoffs under Snyder by guarding the 3 and paint and the Jazz took basically zero shots during the series (one game literally zero shots from midrange).

We had the same defensive strategy, but the Clips feasted from midrange. A good player takes advantage of what the opponent provides, and a good coach does as well.

Last night Key and Collins were horrible closing out on shooters, but the loss came due to OKC being ready to dismantle Utah's zone with wing cuts and adjustments coming WAY too late. It is mind numbing watching the same exploit over and over again.

It also felt like the whistle was not going our way. One play Collins got nailed with no call and Josh Giggidy-Giggidy came down with a layup and got a whistle wirh basically no contact. I note that Lauri's defenders use their arms a lot, and he needs to learn to sweep through them to get FTs.

 

[fishonjazz]

No. Shaq was regularly hacked far away from the basket. The point was to put him on the line, wait for him to miss (as he would regularly do), and then get the ball back for another offensive possession.

That **** wears you down. Basketball is a rhythm game, and taking a team out of its rhythm by making a terrible FT shooter march to the stripe again and again is a great way to get an advantage.

agreed. Would have been a huge reason for the loss last night if they would have hacked kessler a bunch of times.

 

[fishonjazz]

I thought the rules dont really make it valid these days. Isnt it so that if you hack-a-Kessler away from play thats just 1 FT by anyone + possession back, or if team fouls are full then its 1+2 FTs (2 by Kessler, 1 by whoever).

Interesting question. I thought last night they hacked him away from the ball and he had to go to the line for 2 free throws. maybe he had the ball when the foul occurred?

 

[str8line]

The Clippers knocked us out of the playoffs under Snyder by guarding the 3 and paint and the Jazz took basically zero shots during the series (one game literally zero shots from midrange).

We had the same defensive strategy, but the Clips feasted from midrange. A good player takes advantage of what the opponent provides, and a good coach does as well.

Last night Key and Collins were horrible closing out on shooters, but the loss came due to OKC being ready to dismantle Utah's zone with wing cuts and adjustments coming WAY too late. It is mind numbing watching the same exploit over and over again.

It also felt like the whistle was not going our way. One play Collins got nailed with no call and Josh Giggidy-Giggidy came down with a layup and got a whistle wirh basically no contact. I note that Lauri's defenders use their arms a lot, and he needs to learn to sweep through them to get FTs.

Key got scored on once the whole game.

 

[HermanG]

That 6% difference really isn't enough for me to think that SGA can't lead a team in the playoffs. Kawhi is known as a mid range killer, that's all I meant. SGA can get to the rim, and shoot threes too, and OKC has an awesome team around him.

You have the winning position since only one of 30 teams will win, so yea, it probably won't be OKC. But in no way do I think SGA's game holds them back in the playoffs.

I knew I shouldnt have replied to SGA/Kawhi comp...

Kawhi took 27% of his shots from 3 at 40% hitrate vs SGA 17% at 33% hitrate. SGA literally passes up on open 3s at times... Kawhi would never.

I mean pick one range and sure, 6% isnt much. But they are two completely different player types. SGA is much more DeRozan than he is Kawhi (on offense).

 

[HermanG]

Interesting question. I thought last night they hacked him away from the ball and he had to go to the line for 2 free throws. maybe he had the ball when the foul occurred?

I think its like last 2 minutes of each quarter + OT when the "Hack-a" rule applies. Not 100% sure.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

I knew I shouldnt have replied to SGA/Kawhi comp...

Kawhi took 27% of his shots from 3 at 40% hitrate vs SGA 17% at 33% hitrate. SGA literally passes up on open 3s at times... Kawhi would never.

I mean pick one range and sure, 6% isnt much. But they are two completely different player types. SGA is much more DeRozan than he is Kawhi (on offense).

So he's really nothing like Kawhi or DeRozan, he's SGA and he's ****ing awesome. And he has not had a chance to lead a team in the playoffs yet, and I greatly look forward to seeing it.

Do you watch his game and think "Yea this will hold them back in the playoffs"? That's really the only question that is relevant here. I think he has a game that will translate tremendously in the postseason. We will have to see how it plays out.

 

[HermanG]

So he's really nothing like Kawhi or DeRozan, he's SGA and he's ****ing awesome. And he has not had a chance to lead a team in the playoffs yet, and I greatly look forward to seeing it.

Do you watch his game and think "Yea this will hold them back in the playoffs"? That's really the only question that is relevant here. I think he has a game that will translate tremendously in the postseason. We will have to see how it plays out.

Im not sure. His defense will 100% carry over, but I wanna see how he gets guarded with a full playoff series gameplan.

Regular season lackadaisical defense isnt really a barometer. Guards score a ton in the regular season but the only one to consistently carry his team in the PO last 15 years is Steph.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Im not sure. His defense will 100% carry over, but I wanna see how he gets guarded with a full playoff series gameplan.

Regular season lackadaisical defense isnt really a barometer. Guards score a ton in the regular season but the only one to consistently carry his team in the PO last 15 years is Steph.

I’d say that is more due to consistent playoff carrying performance being incredibly rare and difficult. Booker and Luka didn’t do it consistently I guess, but both have gone far in the playoffs.

I think lack of size will end up hurting OKC more than anything, they rely too much on Chet right now.

If SGA does look less than in the postseason let’s remember this because I’ll eat that crow. But I think the guy is, and will be awesome.

 

[HermanG]

@fishonjazz I verified the rule and there is a foul category called "away from the play" which is only used in last 2 minutes of every Q and OT.

It is indeed 1 bonus ft by anyone (who is on the court) + inbound or 2 FTs for the fouled (depends on team fouls).

 

[fishonjazz]

@fishonjazz I verified the rule and there is a foul category called "away from the play" which is only used in last 2 minutes of every Q and OT.

It is indeed 1 bonus ft by anyone (who is on the court) + inbound or 2 FTs for the fouled (depends on team fouls).

Too bad its only the last 2 minutes. Can and should be (if opposing coaches are smart) an effective weapon against the jazz and kessler anytime a team is in the bonus with more than 2 minutes in the quarter. Im glad its every quarter though as i thought it was only the 4th quarter when this restriction applied.

sadly hack a kessler can still be a very effective tactic if he doesn't improve greatly.

 

[HermanG]

I’d say that is more due to consistent playoff carrying performance being incredibly rare and difficult. Booker and Luka didn’t do it consistently I guess, but both have gone far in the playoffs.

I think lack of size will end up hurting OKC more than anything, they rely too much on Chet right now.

If SGA does look less than in the postseason let’s remember this because I’ll eat that crow. But I think the guy is, and will be awesome.

And if he dominates I need to eat my crow as a doubter.

I dont hate his game, my brain just needs a comp or evidence (see it to believe it). SGA is not a unique type like Jokic, just unique to this era.

Back in the 2000s and 90s there were plenty of winning guys who played the midrange game.

 

[Laramie]

Good competitive game; impressed with the the way the Jazz has brought their team together. You will make the playoffs--Clarkson continues to grow his game.

 

[framer]

Too bad its only the last 2 minutes. Can and should be (if opposing coaches are smart) an effective weapon against the jazz and kessler anytime a team is in the bonus with more than 2 minutes in the quarter. Im glad its every quarter though as i thought it was only the 4th quarter when this restriction applied.

sadly hack a kessler can still be a very effective tactic if he doesn't improve greatly.

I mean Kessler still shoots 50%. Giving a team a point every possession isn't ideal, even if the analytics line up. You are still getting players in foul trouble and are eliminating fast break opportunities for your offense.

Seriously, the time it is the most feasible, is when you are trying to extend a game, and the rule eliminates that as a possibility. You would also need to work to be in the penalty way earlier in the quarter, and then the Jazz could just punish you with our really good free throw shooters in that situation. All in all it is a dumb thing to worry about.

 

[Fosto]

I mean Kessler still shoots 50%. Giving a team a point every possession isn't ideal, even if the analytics line up. You are still getting players in foul trouble and are eliminating fast break opportunities for your offense.

Seriously, the time it is the most feasible, is when you are trying to extend a game, and the rule eliminates that as a possibility. You would also need to work to be in the penalty way earlier in the quarter, and then the Jazz could just punish you with our really good free throw shooters in that situation. All in all it is a dumb thing to worry about.

1 point per possession is bad. Any team would take that if they could foul all game. Teams on average score 1.15 points per possession. This is specially the case if Kessler has the ball under the basket, where he would average well above 1pt/pos.

 

[MT Steve]

Kessler really needs to improve his FT shooting, and not even really because of the hack-a-Kessler strategy. Dude would get fouled a lot more if he played even just a little more physically, which makes me think he's currently scared of going to the line.

If he was able to get it up from 50% to 60%, 1.2 points per possession would equate to elite offense.

 

[sip]

The last thing I expected was to come to this thread and have people doubting SGA's ability to dominate in the playoffs. The dude is a monster and there is no doubt in my mind he will be every bit as dominant in the postseason.