This is a great post, Log.
This is a great post, Log.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
To you and everyone left in this forum, everyone politically right of center is a Trumptard, and the personal attacks on those because of their politics are why everyone politically right of center has left.
Those who might vote for Trump in the upcoming election aren't a cult. They aren't even uniform in why their voting in that direction. If you don't like him then don't vote for him, but where you cross the line and why this forum only has your point of view is that you demand that everyone who doesn't echo your same view needs to be called out, shouted down, demeaned and assigned the worst of whatever you think you are not. To you, there are no sane conservatives. There is only your point of view and Trumptards, and I give you credit because you are actually more moderate than most here. Most left in this forum are more closed minded than you are.
It is crazy town to read how many claim they are open to debate but I know from experience that most are only open so long as it is with someone who thinks exactly what they think. The only person in this forum who has wanted to actually talk ideas with someone he does not agree with is silesian. I watched Bucknutz try really hard to have some sort of dialog with The Thriller, and offer up some ground rules about staying way from his usual MAGA Cult generalizations, and The Thriller was completely unable to do it, claimed himself to be an amazing debater of ideas, and then set to writing a bunch of personal attacks. Well done Thriller.
The Tea party did for moderate conservatives, same thing has happened to the Liberal Party here (they're conservative not liberal as Americans would use the term) what's happened here tho is as the Liberal party has gone further and further to the right, independent local candidates have emerged and replaced them in urban electorates, similar to the liberals of old, financially conservative, somewhat socially progress and anti organised labor. This has basically made the liberal party unelectable.
You sure?
What is Data vs. What is Information? | Bloomfire
What’s the difference between data vs. information, and how can they both be leveraged effectively?bloomfire.com
You've provided neither data nor information to back your claim
Y'all need to read a little early American history. I'll take Thomas Jefferson's opinion over yours anyday.
Jeffersonian democracy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
For some reason the MAGA right wing extremists find this semantic issue to an emotional and vitally important distinction.
Why?
The Real Reason Why Republicans Keep Saying “We’re a Republic, Not a Democracy”
The author of Democracy May Not Exist on a sinister new talking point.slate.com
"I love living in Phoenix, it is my favorite city in Arizona"
.....it is not in Arizona, it is in the USA
"It is in Arizona, not in the USA"
....it can't be in both?
"CORRECT"
Some seriously bad logic by Al.
Study some Venn Diagrams
You are describing a representative democracy. Yet saying we are not a democracy at all. ponderous.
Of course we are a republic, no one is debating that point. You need to prove that we are also not a democracy to win the debate. You're not doing very well so far.
"She is a red head"
...Correct
"Therefore she does not wear glasses"
...But some people with red hair also wear glasses
"BUT SHE HAS RED HAIR!"
This is how insance MAGA sounds to sane people.
That article from Slate.com was excellent. thanks
Yes he did. Quotes
“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."
“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
FalseFlagg K
Well-Known Member
it's weird isn't it. I voted independent last couple of elections. The interesting thing atm is whether the ALP and Libs are going to attempt to squeeze the Greens and Teals etc out by preferencing away from them
D
Deleted member 365
Guest
Trumpers are always victims. Never instigators. Always reacting. Always victims. They can never be judged for their own behavior which is always to the response of others. They’re never responsible for anything they do.
Yawn
Meanwhile, trumpers are attacking fellow republicans as RINOs. Like utah right now. You can’t blame liberals for this. We have zero political power in this state. So when trumper Repubs call Gov Cox a RINO and claim he’s rigged the election, you have no one but yourself to blame. Democrats didn’t do any of this. Liberals didn’t boo Cox at the convention. We didn’t attack Mitt Romney so much that he’s retiring. We don’t primary Liz Cheney out of office. You did that. Hey Repubs, you built that!
Yawn
Meanwhile, trumpers are attacking fellow republicans as RINOs. Like utah right now. You can’t blame liberals for this. We have zero political power in this state. So when trumper Repubs call Gov Cox a RINO and claim he’s rigged the election, you have no one but yourself to blame. Democrats didn’t do any of this. Liberals didn’t boo Cox at the convention. We didn’t attack Mitt Romney so much that he’s retiring. We don’t primary Liz Cheney out of office. You did that. Hey Repubs, you built that!
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
You seriously think there are no conservatives in this forum because of the way I treat them?
The expressed thought was why there are no sane conservative here in this forum, and you go off about mean things someone vague, somewhere in the ether that wasn't here, said about the governor? Get a grip. Bucknutz tried to talk across the aisle with you and you answered Logs / Fish's / str8line's question.
After watching you in action, I do not believe for even five seconds that you had to be good at debating ideas to get where you are professionally. You have demonstrated zero ability, relying almost entirely on the thoughts of other people smarter than yourself to which you then add some of your very best "is this the world we want to live in?" or strawman exclamation with every other letter capitalized.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
No he didn't. Both of your cited quotes are fake and repeating the second quote doesn't make it less fake.
The end of democracy...(Spurious Quotation)
The democracy will cease to exist... (Spurious Quotation)
Thomas Jefferson wasn't an idiot who didn't know the difference between a republic and a democracy.
D
Deleted member 365
Guest
Imagine the media outrage if AOC called for “ethnic cleansing” white conservatives.
View: https://x.com/chiproytx/status/1804145532920578301?s=46
View: https://x.com/chiproytx/status/1804145532920578301?s=46
No, I don't dislike people who are right of center, only those who support The Rapist. Germans had a lot of their own reasons for supporting Hitler just like Trumptards have their own reasons for supporting The Rapist. Do you think those Germans who were so high on Hitler in 1937 were happy with their judgment by 1946?
Its actually happened for the same reasons just 20 years apart. If you look at what happened with the Greens, founded in the early 90s, for those of us on the left it was initially regarded as a middle class left movement more concerned about trees and wearing knitted jumpers than living standards. However it benefited significantly from historical events. The end of the Soviet Union did not spell the end of the Communist Party of Australia, the CPA through the 90s was still very organised and influential within the labor movement, communists controlled the maritime union, construction union and miners union. They also functioned as a think tank for the Labor party. However the fall of the soviet union did begin a sort of end of relevance and prestige, a gradual drift away from the party developed, even though the MUA 'won' the waterfront dispute of 1998 the union was weakened and the party was as well. Intellectually there was a new fashion toward decentralised progressive ideas found in what basically amounts to neo-anarchism. With all this in mind well into the 2000s the Communist Parties weekly paper the Guardian was fabulously written containing wonderfully researched articles from intellectuals. I last read it about 10 years ago and it read like something written by an undergraduate on meth, spelling and grammar problems in the ****ing Guardian!!! Its was still relevant within the trade union movement as well, these days the only unions which really still have any CPA legacy would be the MUA.
Anyway the gradual death of the CPA left a bunch of dedicated left wing activists in search of a home. Labor under Beazley, through intransigence and what many of the left considered moral cowardice drifted to the right as Howard's culture war reshaped the country into a meaner, more selfish place place. For people on the hard left the ALP was no longer what it was and they did what to many had been inconceivable, they joined the Greens. As Labor continued under Beazley to not only stand for nothing but also fail to protect their established constituency, the left of the party switched to the greens. The result is that in a 20 year period the vote of the Greens has gone from 5 percent to 15 percent of the primary vote. They also marginally benefited from the demise of the Democrats as a political party but i think these forces are more relevant in the rise of the Teals than they are with the Greens.
In terms of the ALP and the Greens I think labor has learned to live with them, they're not a massive threat in the lower house, the Greens will likely keep the City of Melbourne (I know from personal experience that Adam Bandt is a fantastic local member) and they may take Wills off the ALP in the next 10 to 15 years maybe. Labour will be in for a hard time to hold onto the electorate of Sydney after Tanya Plilbersek leaves parliament but all in all they can live with it. I would expect labor to do their best to support the Teals, the Liberals cannot form government without reclaiming those electorates.
In terms of the Teals I think they're for the most part former Liberal party people who find their parties movement to the far right deeply disturbing, I think they've also benefitted from Democrat voters looking for a home in those electorates too. What most people don't realise is that the rank and file of the Liberal party is significantly further to the right than the parliamentary party. This is a distinct legacy of Howard, Howard liked to present himself as an apostle of Menzies continuing the legacy of the old mans party. In reality he had a lot more in common with Margaret Thatcher and Barry Goldwater than Menzies. The Liberals faced a massive challenge leading into the 2001 election, the Liberals had been smashed by the ALP in state elections across the country, their problem was the rise of One Nation on the right, One Nations primary vote and preference flows cost them massively in WA and Queensland, the Libs cannot form government without WA and Queensland. Howard's solution was to usurp One Nation on the right to adopt or dog whistle their racist idea of Australia. Howard was the first to adopted wedge politics which was still a relatively new phenomenon and his wedge of choice was racism and a subtle embrace of white Australia. Let us remember the Tampa and the children overboard scandals, those two moments off Christmas Island shaped the political landscape for the next 20 years. (**** me, what a **** Howard was) Politically this was effective and possibly necessary for a time it covered them to the right but it has lost them the centre in the long term.
The consequence for the Liberals has been that their party membership has drifted away from tradition conservatives to a party with significant membership and influence from white supremacists and neo-Nazis, by no means are they a majority but they are organised and influential, its a similar to the influence the communist had within the ALP but for wholly different reasons and desired outcomes. Moderates are now a minority within the LNP and I think this is a real problem for them. At present i dont see them having any chance of reclaiming the Teal vote. They seem to be pursuing a strategy of supporting their rural base in WA, NSW and Queensland and targeting outer suburban electorates in the major capitals outside of Victoria. Politically the LNP is basically dead in Victoria. they have 10 of 40 seats in the state and if the state ALP government wasn't so on the nose at the moment that position would likely deteriorate.
The LNP only real strategy is continue down the path they are on, I don't think they have the capacity to right their own ship due to the internal working of the party. Dutton's current madness about nuclear energy is another example of how insane they are, its the most expensive and time consuming solution to the problem which is what his financiers want, delay action on climate change as long as possible to extend the life span of and value from coal. its so transparent its hilarious but people will buy it.
D
Deleted member 365
Guest
I’m pretty busy with some work things and with enjoying the family this summer. Can someone tell me more about this? Did anyone watch this? WTF? I thought his boats, batteries, and shocks thing was an incoherent mess. Now immigrants forced to fight in UFC? What the actual ****?
Former President Donald Trump suggested in two speeches Saturday that migrants coming to the U.S. should have their own fighting league, remarking that they’re “nasty, mean” and “tough people” who could beat the country’s top fighters.
Speaking first to a crowd of conservative Christians at a Faith & Freedom Coalition gathering in Washington, D.C., Trump said he shared the idea with Dana White, president of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
“I said, ‘Dana I have an idea. Why don’t you set up a migrant league of fighters and have your regular league fighters,” Trump said, “and then you have the champion of your league — these are the greatest fighters in the world — fight the champion of the migrants.’” The suggestion drew laughter and applause from the crowd, a response that continued as he spoke more about the concept.
Former President Donald Trump suggested in two speeches Saturday that migrants coming to the U.S. should have their own fighting league, remarking that they’re “nasty, mean” and “tough people” who could beat the country’s top fighters.
Speaking first to a crowd of conservative Christians at a Faith & Freedom Coalition gathering in Washington, D.C., Trump said he shared the idea with Dana White, president of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
“I said, ‘Dana I have an idea. Why don’t you set up a migrant league of fighters and have your regular league fighters,” Trump said, “and then you have the champion of your league — these are the greatest fighters in the world — fight the champion of the migrants.’” The suggestion drew laughter and applause from the crowd, a response that continued as he spoke more about the concept.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
Undoubtedly some were and some were not. That is how people are. More to the point, I don't think it is correct to even try to put all people in the same box to condemn then all. I believe it can even be dangerous to do so. Many historians believe Hitler's rise to power was brought about by the collective punitive measures the Allies inflicted on Germany at the conclusion of WWI. That isn't the same as saying Germany was good or right in WWI, only that vindictive treatment, even if you think it fully justified, can have really awful consequences.
FalseFlagg K
Well-Known Member
good summary dude. Yeah the sudden "ok lets do nuclear" after all this time is so transparent. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, he's obviously been given internal polling that this may hit a mark with people disgruntled with the cost of living atm.
Thing is its four times the cost of renewables and storage! They're claiming its gonna cost 600 billion, I'd be shocked if its not two or three times that if its ever delivered and I hope its not. Them trying to keep climate change and support coal as an issue for them for the last 15 years is why energy is so expensive in the first place, their BS has destabilised the market and prevented investment.
I believe the last reactor built in an OECD nation was 160 billion and that was in the UK where labor price are 1 third of ours.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
20-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
2025 Award Winner
Red
Well-Known Member
Time to reflect on his luxurious hair…..
View: https://x.com/ArbiterofCool/status/1804670607755297158
View: https://x.com/ArbiterofCool/status/1804670607755297158
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
20-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
2025 Award Winner
Corcoran made multiple audio recordings to memorialize his interactions with the former president, including meeting with Trump on May 23, 2022 to discuss his response to a subpoena for any classified documents stored at Mar-a-Lago.
During an approximately one-and-a-half-hour meeting with both Trump and attorney Jennifer Little, Trump brought a box to their first meeting to demonstrate its contents, showing the attorneys his newspaper clippings, Post-it notes, and photos, and other materials.
"I don't want anybody looking, I don't want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don't, I don't want you looking through my boxes," Trump said, according to a portion of the notes included in the indictment against Trump. "Look I just don't want anybody going through these things."
Corcoran recalled that he tried to steer the conversation back to the boxes and warned the former president about the legal consequences of not complying with the subpoena.
"Well what if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them?" Trump asked, according to a portion of the notes included in the indictment.
"Well, there's a prospect that they could go to a judge and get a search warrant and that they could arrive here and get a search warrant," Corcoran responded.
According to Corcoran, Trump repeatedly asked during their meeting if it would be "better if we just told them we don't have anything here."
During an interview with Smith's team, Little largely corroborated Corcoran's recollection of the meeting, telling investigators that she "very clearly" warned Trump about the seriousness of the subpoena and told him "it's going to be a crime" if he failed to comply
But while waiting poolside at Mar-a-Lago for their next meeting with Trump, Corcoran said Little warned -- based on her conversation with two other Trump attorneys -- that if they pushed Trump to comply with the subpoena, "he's just going to go ballistic," Corcoran noted.
Little added that "there's no way he's going to agree to anything and that, that he was going to deny that there were any more boxes at all," according to Corcoran's notes.
Later in the afternoon on May 23, 2022, Corcoran and Little met with Trump in a small library at Mar-a-Lago, ditching their phones outside the room at the direction of the former president, according to Corcoran.
Sitting feet from Trump across a small table, Corcoran said Trump asked about the legal consequences for complying with the subpoena
According to Corcoran's notes, Trump expressed concerns that returning "additional documents" following the subpoena could become the "basis for criminal liability.
"He asked again, he said -- Well look, isn't it better if there are no documents?" Corcoran noted.
Prosecutors allege that Corcoran's rebuff to Trump's suggestions resulted in the former president adopting a different plan -- deceiving his attorney by having his "trusted body man" and co-defendant Walt Nauta move the boxes from the storage room in Mar-a-Lago to prevent Corcoran from conducting a complete search.
In the days between the May 23 meeting with Trump and Corcoran's June 2 review of the boxes at Mar-a-Lago, prosecutors allege that Trump coordinated for Nauta to remove 64 boxes out of the storage room to Trump's personal residence, where Trump planned to "pick from them," according to text messages between Nauta and a Trump family member. By the time Corcoran returned to Mar-a-Lago to review the boxes, only about 30 of the 64 boxes moved by Nauta were returned for the search.
The following day, Corcoran coordinated for Jay Bratt, then the deputy chief of the Department of Justice's National Security Division, and FBI agents to visit Mar-a-Lago to take custody of the responsive documents.
Corcoran received a panicked call from Trump about the visit from federal officials on the morning of their visit, according to Corcoran's notes.
"Oh that's very bad. What, you know, what do they want? What are they trying to, why are they trying to get something on me again?" Trump said, according to the notes.
While Corcoran emphasized that the meeting was a routine step that he coordinated, Trump still expressed concern that "this is very bad" and was particularly interested in Bratt's attendance at the meeting.
According to Corcoran, Trump personally encouraged showing Bratt and the FBI agents the storage room where the documents were stored, over the advice of Corcoran. According to prosecutors, despite Corcoran's search resulting in return of 38 documents bearing classification markings, Trump still possessed 102 classified documents in Mar-a-Lago -- in part due to his effort to hide documents from Corcoran when he attempted to comply with the subpoena -- which would be discovered when federal agents returned to Mar-a-Lago two months later with a search warrant.
Later that day, Corcoran noted that he received a phone call from Trump, who was onboard his plane en route to New Jersey for the summer.
"Well we're taking off. But look, Evan, don't call me with any bad news, okay? Don't call me with any bad news," Trump said, according to the notes.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
You say you’ll take Thomas Jefferson’s opinion. Prove it. Show me that you are capable of taking Thomas Jefferson’s opinion.
I keep going back to the example of popular laws being struck down as unconstitutional because it is an easy proof that the highest level of power/rule/kratos in our system of government is NOT the popular will of the people.
Every time, or nearly every time, that a stupid law is ruled unconstitutional, it is on the grounds that it violates this or that amendment, with the kings of overturning stupid laws being the original ten amendments in the Bill of Rights. Do you know who it was who initially pushed so hard for those anti-democratic clauses to be enshrined as core to our government? I’ll give you a hint; It wasn’t James Madison who is considered the author of the US Constitution and the author of the Bill of Rights.
The reason it was so easy for me to tell your cited quotes were fake is because I know it was Thomas MutherEffing Jefferson who spearheaded the effort to codify those bulwarks set to protect individual liberties from democracy.
"Within the First Congress, James Madison emerged as the leader of the effort to pass a Bill of Rights. In many ways, the “Father of the U.S. Constitution” was an unlikely “Father of the Bill of Rights.” Like many leading Federalists, Madison did not believe that the Constitution needed a Bill of Rights. First, Madison argued that one was unnecessary. In his view, a Bill of Rights would serve as a mere parchment barrier—providing no real protections for the American people. Madison argued that to limit abuses of power, the key was constitutional structure, not a Bill of Rights—limit the powers of the national government, divide those powers between three branches, and give those branches the power to check one another. Second, Madison argued that a Bill of Rights might even be dangerous. For Madison, the American people’s rights were so numerous that to write them down would be to limit them. In this series of letters, Madison’s friend Thomas Jefferson—abroad in France—urged Madison to support a Bill of Rights. Eventually, Madison did just that—leading the push for a Bill of Rights in the First Congress."