Clayton or Collier?

[slc]

I think he is going to have a break out year.
In fact, hot take incoming, I think he is going to play at a near all star level this season (offensively)

I'm extremely high on year 3 keyonte

Keyonte might have take the next big step
He's got a lot of young guns trying to take his minutes this season

 

[jazznik]

This thread is a bit meaningless. Neither Collier, nor Clayton is a starting-level PG in the league at the moment and both of them are pretty unlikely to improve enough to become a quality starter. they could probably become solid backups but the competition to become a backup is very different from competing for a long-term starting position. Personality, locker room presence, ability to stick closely to what coaches want them to do, their fit with the second unit and many other things like that become the deciding factors.

The Jazz will probably keep and develop both of them, bring the actual starting PG and then decide who they should keep between Collier and Clayton as a backup (if any).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This thread is a bit meaningless. Neither Collier, nor Clayton is a starting-level PG in the league at the moment and both of them are pretty unlikely to improve enough to become a quality starter. they could probably become solid backups but the competition to become a backup is very different from competing for a long-term starting position. Personality, locker room presence, ability to stick closely to what coaches want them to do, their fit with the second unit and many other things like that become the deciding factors.

The Jazz will probably keep and develop both of them, bring the actual starting PG and then decide who they should keep between Collier and Clayton as a backup (if any).

Clayton is

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

The 18th overall pick is actually very unlikely to be a good starter in the NBA.

 

[Basketball Novice]

This thread is a bit meaningless. Neither Collier, nor Clayton is a starting-level PG in the league at the moment and both of them are pretty unlikely to improve enough to become a quality starter. they could probably become solid backups but the competition to become a backup is very different from competing for a long-term starting position. Personality, locker room presence, ability to stick closely to what coaches want them to do, their fit with the second unit and many other things like that become the deciding factors.

The Jazz will probably keep and develop both of them, bring the actual starting PG and then decide who they should keep between Collier and Clayton as a backup (if any).

I don't see why Collier or Clayton can't become a starting level PG. Collier has some concerning problems but some great strengths to his game and WCJ has looked great in Summer League. If they aren't starter level players, they probably won't stick with the Jazz in the long term.

 

[jazznik]

I don't see why Collier or Clayton can't become a starting level PG. Collier has some concerning problems but some great strengths to his game and WCJ has looked great in Summer League. If they aren't starter level players, they probably won't stick with the Jazz in the long term.

Sure they can but it is very unlikely. The shooting problems of Collier's magnitude are very, very rarely get fixed for the guards. And how many starting PGs who spent 4 years in college do you know? Lillard (who was also drafted 5th), Brogdon and who else? It is also rare.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not to be mean, but I dont see how anyone with two working braincells and functioning eyes who has watched NBA basketball the last 5 years thinks Collier is better than Clayton.

You have to be able to shoot. If you cant, you have to be elite in several other areas.

Right now Collier cant shoot and his only skill that is potentially elite is his driving ability. The issue is he cant even make his FT's to capitalize on that driving ability.

He needs to become an elite defender, but he isnt. His really bulky and strong going downhill, but that same bulk seems to limit his lateral mobility defensively.

Clayton is basically better at everything at this point besides downhill driving/foul drawing.

 

[HeatCheck]

Sure they can but it is very unlikely. The shooting problems of Collier's magnitude are very, very rarely get fixed for the guards. And how many starting PGs who spent 4 years in college do you know? Lillard (who was also drafted 5th), Brogdon and who else? It is also rare.

VanVleet spent 4 years in college.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

VanVleet spent 4 years in college.

Brunson

It's actually kind of the norm for smaller guards who are good in the NBA. A lot of them tend to be 4 year players.

 

[The Midnight]

Not to be mean, but I dont see how anyone with two working braincells and functioning eyes who has watched NBA basketball the last 5 years thinks Collier is better than Clayton.

You have to be able to shoot. If you cant, you have to be elite in several other areas.

Right now Collier cant shoot and his only skill that is potentially elite is his driving ability. The issue is he cant even make his FT's to capitalize on that driving ability.

He needs to become an elite defender, but he isnt. His really bulky and strong going downhill, but that same bulk seems to limit his lateral mobility defensively.

Clayton is basically better at everything at this point besides downhill driving/foul drawing.

People who thinks Collier is better are “Contrarians”.

Would you by any chance know what that means?

Oh wait,, .. you’ve been doing the same damn thing on this site for more than a decade!!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL !!!!

 

[NAOS_pt2]

Not to be mean, but I dont see how anyone with two working braincells and functioning eyes who has watched NBA basketball the last 5 years thinks Collier is better than Clayton.

You have to be able to shoot. If you cant, you have to be elite in several other areas.

Right now Collier cant shoot and his only skill that is potentially elite is his driving ability. The issue is he cant even make his FT's to capitalize on that driving ability.

He needs to become an elite defender, but he isnt. His really bulky and strong going downhill, but that same bulk seems to limit his lateral mobility defensively.

Clayton is basically better at everything at this point besides downhill driving/foul drawing.

It's really easy to find reels that demonstrate Collier's passing ability. He processes the game quickly and can make quick passes off the dribble (including skip passes).

And it just so happens that the jazz are in very short supply of players who can do that stuff as well as Collier can.


Look, before this thread was started, I was already on the record wondering if/when Clayton would claim the starting spot (maybe you got NAOS-pilled, and then started this thread?). But I don't think it's obvious that Clayton will take it right away, given how the rest of the roster is composed. I also don't think Clayton's only path to minutes comes at the expense of Collier's.

There are very few dudes who are saying that Collier has this locked up and that he's a starting-caliber player on a winning team.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

People who thinks Collier is better are “Contrarians”.

Would you by any chance know what that means?

Oh wait,, .. you’ve been doing the same damn thing on this site for more than a decade!!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL !!!!

Did you even read what he said?

 

[bigmike]

Not to be mean, but I dont see how anyone with two working braincells and functioning eyes who has watched NBA basketball the last 5 years thinks Collier is better than Clayton.

You have to be able to shoot. If you cant, you have to be elite in several other areas.

Right now Collier cant shoot and his only skill that is potentially elite is his driving ability. The issue is he cant even make his FT's to capitalize on that driving ability.

He needs to become an elite defender, but he isnt. His really bulky and strong going downhill, but that same bulk seems to limit his lateral mobility defensively.

Clayton is basically better at everything at this point besides downhill driving/foul drawing.

I have only one working brain cell and can still see that WCJ is the superior player.

 

[sip]

My issue with Clayton Jr. is that his limited size and athleticism make it difficult for him to get where he wants to go on the floor without the use of multiple screens. (I guess we'll see if the Jazz can create enough spacing for him when he plays with the regular rotation guys.) Collier is better than WCJ at breaking the paint, pressuring the rim and creating off the dribble. So it becomes a question of what style of play Will Hardy wants to use. The problem with Collier is that he has little-to-no value when he's off the ball. Until Collier shoots well enough to be respected, he can't really be your starting point guard long term.

I think that in the bigger picture, the Jazz are probably planning to build a team that can run a lot of their offense from the wing, or they'll use multiple creators, while the guy they play at the 1 will spend considerable time playing off the ball. This is what the Celtics did recently when they played through Tatum and had Derrick White and Jrue Holiday spacing the floor. WCJ fits that blueprint. (Keyonte does as well...if he'll play defense.) WCJ is potentially a knock-down shooter with deep range, who can also use his high skill level as a secondary playmaker.

In the immediate term, I think the starting PG is Collier's to lose. I think he'll be the starter to open the season. If Collier can get his 3pt shooting up to 34% or so, then people will begin to look at him as starting-caliber.

It always comes down to the reliable jumper. If he doesn't develop a reliable jumper then he has an Elfrid Payton career trajectory. If he can develop that jump shot then a Kyle Lowry type is possible.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

Clayton is not limited athletically.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It always comes down to the reliable jumper. If he doesn't develop a reliable jumper then he has an Elfrid Payton career trajectory. If he can develop that jump shot then a Kyle Lowry type is possible.

There's an ocean of difference between developing a reliable jumper and being Kyle Lowry.

 

[homeytennis]

Collier got benched in the 4th quarter. His attitude needs to get better.

 

[fishonjazz]

There's an ocean of difference between developing a reliable jumper and being Kyle Lowry.

He also didn't say developing a reliable shot = Lowry.
He said a reliable shot is required for a Lowry level player to even be a possibility. In other words, he needs that reliable shot first and foremost and then needs more stuff as well.

 

[Schrödinger's Gerbil]

LOL at how a this topic has devolved into an insult-fest.

Personally, and based on limited info, I think Clayton will have the longer and better career than Collier, if not as starter, then as a quality bench/role player. Clayton isn't perfect, but he lacks a glaring flaw that (other than perhaps his small size) that threatens to derail him. Collier has that single flaw: he can't shoot. I think that non-shooting guards will have a very hard time thriving in in today's league, regardless of their other virtues. I suspect that by the end of the coming season or by sometime next season, Clayton will have supplanted Collier as our lead PG, barring the emergence of someone else.

I am rooting for Collier; I'd really like to see him succeed and become a quality starter. I like how he plays. I like his attitude. However, I'm more inclined to see his trajectory as a someone who's a fringe player in a few years, unless he can figure out how to shoot at a more reliable clip. I may well be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

LOL at how a this topic has devolved into an insult-fest.

Personally, and based on limited info, I think Clayton will have the longer and better career than Collier, if not as starter, then as a quality bench/role player. Clayton isn't perfect, but he lacks a glaring flaw that (other than perhaps his small size) that threatens to derail him. Collier has that single flaw: he can't shoot. I think that non-shooting guards will have a very hard time thriving in in today's league, regardless of their other virtues. I suspect that by the end of the coming season or by sometime next season, Clayton will have supplanted Collier as our lead PG, barring the emergence of someone else.

I am rooting for Collier; I'd really like to see him succeed and become a quality starter. I like how he plays. I like his attitude. However, I'm more inclined to see his trajectory as a someone who's a fringe player in a few years, unless he can figure out how to shoot at a more reliable clip. I may well be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

FYI Collier and Clayton are essentially the exact same size.