What should the FO do if we are 0.500 by January?

[NUMBERICA]

They obviously never had a choice like that.

Anyway, OKC executed a multiyear scorched earth tank. There was never any question about what they were going to do. They wanted to hit rock bottom.

I’m confused by this comment. So what’s wrong with the Jazz tanking is they’re being weak-willed about it? Or?

 

[NUMBERICA]

They had two years in the tank. They just did it right. They sent Al Horford home instead of letting him continue to play. They sat SGA a **** ton of games. They basically did what we did last year... except they did it for two years. They had choices. They made choices and the followed through with their commitment.

Correct. Sitting SGA doesn’t seem to have ruined his development or caused a cancerous loser culture, either.

Our organization is just run by cowards, whose cowardice is dragging out the number of years we end seasons desperately trying to lose games.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Correct. Sitting SGA doesn’t seem to have ruined his development or caused a cancerous loser culture, either.

Our organization is just run by cowards, whose cowardice is dragging out the number of years we end seasons desperately trying to lose games.

I think Presti and OKC trigger something weird. Like what he did isn't genius but he is regarded as one. I think he is just really disciplined and smart. I don't think we have the discipline to fully commit and stay on one path at times. We want to be skinny while eating cake ya know.

We also seem to get tripped up by things that could have been easily foreseen but catch us by surprise. I realize post-Walker injury the team projected as a loser and is winning more than expected... but coming into the season with Walker this is a record that could be considered possible. I'm just not sure why they thought they needed to keep all the expiring contracts for trade purposes. We have enough exceptions and other things to do deals. Should have cut bait with a couple guys before they came into camp tbh.

It seems like they are on a path now (hopefully) that they embrace the tank more. Who knows though.

 

[Zombie]

I think Presti and OKC trigger something weird. Like what he did isn't genius but he is regarded as one. I think he is just really disciplined and smart. I don't think we have the discipline to fully commit and stay on one path at times. We want to be skinny while eating cake ya know.

We also seem to get tripped up by things that could have been easily foreseen but catch us by surprise. I realize post-Walker injury the team projected as a loser and is winning more than expected... but coming into the season with Walker this is a record that could be considered possible. I'm just not sure why they thought they needed to keep all the expiring contracts for trade purposes. We have enough exceptions and other things to do deals. Should have cut bait with a couple guys before they came into camp tbh.

It seems like they are on a path now (hopefully) that they embrace the tank more. Who knows though.

My read is that this has less to do with discipline (or cowardice) and more to do with OKC's front office and ownership all being on the same page throughout their tanking years, something I don't think is the case with Utah. Especially since baby Ainge arrived.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

My read is that this has less to do with discipline (or cowardice) and more to do with OKC's front office and ownership all being on the same page throughout their tanking years, something I don't think is the case with Utah. Especially since baby Ainge arrived.

I definitely buy that. I think DA is also an "opportunist" where Presti is a detailed planner.

I also wonder where Ryan sits in all this. Like I wonder if part of the way Austin gets the gig is telling Ryan what he wants to hear and he wants to move on from the tank? I can definitely see how having 3 (4 if you count JZ) big voices pulling different directions how it might look a bit disjointed.

I just see such a clear line of demarcation of when the tank should end. Its weird not to sprint to the finish here.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Austin Ainge made the team worse on paper. He traded away Sexton and Collins, two players many would say were at least average starters.

He got a center who got booted from two teams who badly needed a big man. And a center who just had his worse season as a pro who is 37 years old.

Main way to make the team worse right now is playing Cody and Taylor a lot of minutes, but they might not be that bad. Cody is our best wing defender and Taylor can at least hit shots sometimes. The Jazz also seem to actually believe both players have a future and don't want to overextend them just for the sake of losing and wrecking their confidence.

So it basically comes down to sitting Lauri or Keyonte. I would imagine it would be very difficult to sit Keyonte. He's playing for his contract extension. Who knows how amicable Lauri is to sitting games given he could be a lock for his 2nd all-star game and the only thing that would stop that is not playing enough games.

Austin said he wouldn't do any tomfoolery, and he has stuck by that, but I'm curious to see if he changes his mind given how bad the rest of the NBA has been which I'm guessing he didn't see coming

 

[KqWIN]

I don't think there's an issue with FO and ownership not being on the same page. Problem is that they were on the wrong page....or they were only able to turn the page half way. Ryan has to take the flack for selling our pick for $$$, but we're in a poor situation mostly due to DA's greed. Up until this point, I think Ryan has allowed the FO to do as the please. It's not a small thing for a new owner to sign off on trading two superstar players immediately with an All Star game coming. Hardy has also been very compliant whenever the mandate comes in. When he's allowed to do his best to win he does, but when the mandate comes he has had no problem with it. IMO, we have great synergy between ownership, FO, and coaching. We just have bad FO.

I do think patience has run out, but that is another thing where the FO and ownership appear to be on the same page with.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Austin Ainge made the team worse on paper. He traded away Sexton and Collins, two players many would say were at least average starters.

He got a center who got booted from two teams who badly needed a big man. And a center who just had his worse season as a pro who is 37 years old.

Main way to make the team worse right now is playing Cody and Taylor a lot of minutes, but they might not be that bad. Cody is our best wing defender and Taylor can at least hit shots sometimes. The Jazz also seem to actually believe both players have a future and don't want to overextend them just for the sake of losing and wrecking their confidence.

So it basically comes down to sitting Lauri or Keyonte. I would imagine it would be very difficult to sit Keyonte. He's playing for his contract extension. Who knows how amicable Lauri is to sitting games given he could be a lock for his 2nd all-star game and the only thing that would stop that is not playing enough games.

Austin said he wouldn't do any tomfoolery, and he has stuck by that, but I'm curious to see if he changes his mind given how bad the rest of the NBA has been which I'm guessing he didn't see coming

Its the bold part that kinda gets me each time. Individually I can see how you don't see one team being bad or whatever... but there are almost always a couple teams that join the fray. The only thing you can control to an extent is how bad you are. Their job is to be ready for some of these things. Boxing himself into a weird statement for no reason was a dumb move too. Easy to correct if you don't have an ego though.

With Walker we were pushing it a bit. Now that he is out it looks like a tank is fully achievable... but why give Will options that he can play instead of the tank commanders?

Nurk wasn't bad in Charlotte. They did the deal to get the better overall player and a second round pick. It was a tank move though.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Locke continues to seem pretty convinced the Jazz will do what's necessary to keep the oick

 

[Losing Interest]

To answer the original thread question "What should the FO do if we are .500 by January?" - I don't think they can do very much.

I don't think the Jazz can do much to drastically improve their draft lottery position at this time (almost 1/3 of the way through the season). I don't think there are many changes that will happen in the standings with the teams that are currently in the bottom 5 of the 2 conferences.

I don't believe there is a trade the Jazz have a realistic chance of obtaining to improve the team (without mortgaging their future).

Have the Jazz ever been lucky enough to move up in the draft lottery in the past??? I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

I believe they end up in the bottom half of the lottery then get pushed down 1 or 2 spots and lose this year's pick. The end result is they remain mediocre for the next several years. The FO will use terms similar to "Big Game Hunting" during the next couple of off seasons to try to maintain interest from the fans, but nothing is going to change.

Yes! I am pessimistic about the Jazz. Nothing in the past 25 years has really given me any reason to feel any different.

 

[KqWIN]

If you could convince me that there's a trade out there that's so good it overrides the pick value, I'd do it. Like if Dumars trades us Herb and a future unprotected pick to us, sign me up!

In absence of that, I think you just play all the young guys and let it ride. And maybe you make the determination that Key and/or Lauri need to play less minutes or miss a few more games. Either way, it's a good thing if our young guys carry us to a point where we win to much. Much better feeling than being kept afloat by vets.

Even if we were competing for something this year I'm uncomfortable with the amount of minutes Lauri has played. And while it sounds odd to sit a 3rd year breakout player...."you know who" did exactly this. 1-2 games can make a big difference wrt to keeping the pick. I don't think you need to be extreme, but also don't be stupid.

I've said it all year, but the less we do now, the more painful it will be down the road. That could painful as in pulling out the tanking extremes or painful as in losing the pick.

 

[Losing Interest]

Locke continues to seem pretty convinced the Jazz will do what's necessary to keep the oick

Locke is a paid employee of the Jazz. He has to continue to sell the product. I can't blame him. He has a great gig and I am sure he is paid well but he is just representing the Jazz now days. I liked his shows a lot better in the 90s when he was independent of the Jazz and questioned some of their actions.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Locke continues to seem pretty convinced the Jazz will do what's necessary to keep the oick

We are 3-4 weeks away from the switch to "we actually don't need the pick and play in success is more important. Look at Cody/Taylor and what that pick yields... do we need more of that? There was no real way for us to be bad enough anyway."

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Locke is a paid employee of the Jazz. He has to continue to sell the product. I can't blame him. He has a great gig and I am sure he is paid well but he is just representing the Jazz now days. I liked his shows a lot better in the 90s when he was independent of the Jazz and questioned some of their actions.

Yall will twist anything lmao. So Locke is being told to say by the FO that the Jazz will lose on purpose to keep fan engaged?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you could convince me that there's a trade out there that's so good it overrides the pick value, I'd do it. Like if Dumars trades us Herb and a future unprotected pick to us, sign me up!

In absence of that, I think you just play all the young guys and let it ride. And maybe you make the determination that Key and/or Lauri need to play less minutes or miss a few more games. Either way, it's a good thing if our young guys carry us to a point where we win to much. Much better feeling than being kept afloat by vets.

Even if we were competing for something this year I'm uncomfortable with the amount of minutes Lauri has played. And while it sounds odd to sit a 3rd year breakout player...."you know who" did exactly this. 1-2 games can make a big difference wrt to keeping the pick. I don't think you need to be extreme, but also don't be stupid.

I've said it all year, but the less we do now, the more painful it will be down the road. That could painful as in pulling out the tanking extremes or painful as in losing the pick.

There are some key b2b games with Dallas that you could sit Lauri. If he plays those games its full on malpractice.

Lauri is second in the league in on/off differential. Play him 3-4 less minutes in "important" games and sit him when the load makes sense... at very least. His minutes in wins is padded by some OT but its still really high - 38.2 minutes per game in wins.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yall will twist anything lmao. So Locke is being told to say by the FO that the Jazz will lose on purpose to keep fan engaged?

No but he's a team employee that wants to make sure the team looks good/intelligent or that he paints them in the best light. I don't know what they do or don't say but Locke has the ability to fire up or cool off the fanbase. People pay attention to what he says.

It may turn more of a focus on turning to development and picks are like 3rd or 4th on the list of things to worry about type of thing.

Do you think he is completely unbiased?

 

[Losing Interest]

Yall will twist anything lmao. So Locke is being told to say by the FO that the Jazz will lose on purpose to keep fan engaged?

No, that is not what I mean. He is walking a fine line and can't criticize or question his employer to the public.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No but he's a team employee that wants to make sure the team looks good/intelligent or that he paints them in the best light. I don't know what they do or don't say but Locke has the ability to fire up or cool off the fanbase. People pay attention to what he says.

It may turn more of a focus on turning to development and picks are like 3rd or 4th on the list of things to worry about type of thing.

Do you think he is completely unbiased?

No, of course I don't think he is unbiased, but his podcast amounted to "if we don't keep the pick and hit on it we are ****ed" and I don't think it would have worded his opinions on the matter as strongly as he did if he was planning to pivot to "it's fine if we lose the pick".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, that is not what I mean. He is walking a fine line and can't criticize or question his employer to the public.

He's always going to soften criticism and exaggerate praise at least a little. He's not some puppet for the org. The org absolutely wants certain messages out there though and personnel will ask media to make sure certain things are mentioned etc.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, of course I don't think he is unbiased, but his podcast amounted to "if we don't keep the pick and hit on it we are ****ed" and I don't think it would have worded his opinions on the matter as strongly as he did if he was planning to pivot to "it's fine if we lose the pick".

I think thats the plan. If they don't cut deep enough I can see a pivot of the narrative. I think we can see the other night that they are starting to tip their hand outwardly.

Its just somewhat out of the org's control if they have lines they won't cross. So if it keeps trending the wrong way I can see a "this was always the plan" type of narrative.